Hey DB,

I'm at a loss as to what you mean by "Eresq... Double standard? Did the rest of the crew turn themselves in and suffer the same fate? You were just a guilty correct?" If you are referring to the friend of ours who was arrested, convicted, served time in the county jail, and lost two stripes after injuring a local in an "accident" -- he was in our platoon, but not with our group the day this "accident" occurred. But, the word of his predicament, and it's harsh outcome, spread fast throughout the unit!

Hey WT,

I agree, post the facts an CONSEQUENCES where ATV riders congregate. PSAs are just one segment of broadcasting the message. But, we'll never get blood & guts photos of a child publicized. The emotional impact, while lasting, is far to great for the majority of human beings to accept in the manner intended. The backlash of outrage at such images will cause more harm than good.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>The emotional impact, while lasting, is far to great for the majority of human beings to accept in the manner intended. The backlash of outrage at such images will cause more harm than good.</end quote></div>

Yeah. On second thought, what I suggested would likely cause more negative consequences than what you offered via PSA. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Also, stickers are not effective. If they were then my son would not be riding his 150cc. I am not going so far as to say that I am negligent in any way; but I am not following the sticker recommendation. It is ridiculous that a rider nearly 16 is limited to a 90cc ATV. Many kids by that age are larger than their parents; certainly not as wise but could be more at risk by riding something that so. I would think the ability to control the ATV could be restricted by the undersized frame and controls and seating.

There is only so much you can do to warn folks about the potential dangers. I don't want to stir up the dander of the NRA but having a gun around the house which is not securely locked up also poses great dander to underage kids and there is not much more done when one buys a rifle across the counter at WalMart.

Merry Xmas to you all. It's been a great year debating this topic.

 

While it's been brought up before, the snowmobile riding community is suffering from some of the same problems. Unsafe speeds, to powerful of a machine for the age of the operator, and allowing children just barely old enough to be in elementary school to operate a motor vehicle upon a public highway. Here's a perfect example of the latter.

****************************************

SIX-YEAR-OLD CHILD ESCAPES SERIOUS INJURY IN CHRISTMAS EVE SNOWMOBILE Vs. AUTOMOBILE COLLISION

Updated: 12:36 PM 12/25/2007

TURIN, NEW YORK -- A 6-year-old child and his parents can thank a Christmas miracle for escaping serious injury, or death, in a snowmobile accident that occurred Monday afternoon in the Town of Turin.

A 52-year-old Carthage, NY, woman was passing a group of snowmobilers on Second Road in Turin when the 6-year-old snowmobile operator turned into her path just as she was coming abreast of the child.

The child's helmet was knocked off and the child landed partially under the front of the vehicle, moving with it until the car went off the right side of the road into a snowbank.

The child was taken to Lewis County General Hospital by Beaver Falls ambulance, treated for minor bruises, abrasions, and scrapes and then released. Although emotionally distraught, the automobile operator was not injured in the accident.

Lewis County Sheriff's Deputies are continuing their investigation into the accident.

****************************************

Hopefully, if charges are deemed appropriate in this incident (and they should be), that fact will be publicized!

 

A trip into the forests yesterday made obvious to me two issues that cannot be taught by laws nor handled by enforcement. All the instruction and legislation in the nation can make up for total lack of consideration and manners. I choose to park and unload where there are no others, I choose to ride where there are no others. If I happen to observe anyone else on my travels I respect their privacy and their activity and move elsewhere. Yesterday, 5 vehicles and trailers opted to park where I did. Not a problem really as there is a lot of room. In the process of unloading their snow machines and "playing" my vehicle was sprayed with snow and debris. Poor manners and inconsiderate but it will wash off. Two of the vehicles parked in a manner to block my access back onto the main roadway...........again poor manners and not considerate but as long as reverse works I can back into another area and then gain access to the main road. While my wife and I were attempting to load our 4 wheelers onto our trailer and move on the snow machines returned to the parking area and for a few minutes used the various vehicles, including mine, as pivot points in a modified barrel race, again demonstrating lack of consideration and poor manners. What about safety? During their activities it was apparently fun to see how close they could ride behind the moving trailer. Had I not noticed the first two in my mirrors and stopped I would have pushed 2500 lbs directly into the path (or the side) of the next two machines. The next machine was traveling at such a high speed if I had not moved ahead rapidly would have slid into the side of that 2500 lb trailer or my 4000lb vehicle. These riders were all adults, all experienced and obviously very skilled riders. Lack of consideration and manners caused them to create situations where safety was non-existant. When I spoke to one of the riders of the situation he replied "We have as much right to be here as you do". He was correct, they do have as much right. When I mentioned the obvious safety problems he said "no-one was hurt, what are you worried about?".
Classes would do no good, instruction would be wasted. A confrontation would not have accomplished a thing. Enforcement is always after the fact. An initial grounding in manners and consideration would seem to be the first step in accomplishing any movement towards safety................Tass

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Classes would do no good, instruction would be wasted. A confrontation would not have accomplished a thing. Enforcement is always after the fact. An initial grounding in manners and consideration would seem to be the first step in accomplishing any movement towards safety................" Tass</end quote></div>

Everything you said is 100% accurate. However, one of the conditions we're trying to change is:
"Enforcement is always after the fact."

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>When I spoke to one of the riders of the situation he replied "We have as much right to be here as you do". He was correct, they do have as much right. When I mentioned the obvious safety problems he said "No-one was hurt, what are you worried about?".
Tass</end quote></div>

If a police officer, sheriff's deputy, highway patrol officer or state police trooper (KY's version of HP) pulls over a motor vehicle observed operating in a reckless manner, is the driver let go because he states: "No one was hurt, what are you worried about?". Of course not. In fact if this was his response to a Kentucky State Trooper, his day would've turned very ugly, very fast!

So, why do we tolerate the totally irresponsible behavior of ATV and snowmobile operators, but not the irresponsible behaivor of motor vehicle operators? Dead is dead, whether by MVA or ATVA.

Here's a link to an article outlining a very successful program targeting underage drinking and driving.
"Strategies for Success: Combating Juvenile DUI"
This program combines "Reactive & Proactive Law Enforcement" with "Education & Publicity."

Using this program as a template, it would not be difficult to modify and develop a similar program targeting unsafe off-highway vehicle (OHV) operation. As I have been preaching: "No new laws."--
"Just enforcement of existing laws and safety regulations as they apply to OHVs."

BTW, a program similar to what I propose is taking shape here. It's a cooperative effort by the Kentucky Dept. of Agriculture and the Kentucky State Police. As it moves forward, I'll keep this forum updated.

 

Hi all

Hope everyone had a great CHRISTMAS!!

Have to admit I was very suprised to see this thread at the top of the list when I came on here to make a thread about something that I realized recently that actually fits right in here.

Though it was nice to see the thread still moving along (meaning people are still trying to make things better for all) I have to be honest I was a little disapointed to see all the bickering and time wasted arguing between ourselves that could have been better used in more positive and productive ways.

Still I guess the fact everyone isnt off on a which machine is faster thread and is still involved here is in its self a positive.

First for the point I was going to make initially. It seems that there is an ever increasing association between serious injury and fatality numbers, and areas known to be the butt of stupid, inbred, yahoo, red neck, and other "dumb ****" jokes. Now this is actally partially aimed at being funny or a joke, but also you have to admit that areas where the median education level is higher there also seems to be a lower percentage of injuries per rider etc.

I know when I still had the time to be a regular poster here the popular opinion was that education is the key to making our sport safer for everyone (yes even those who normally end up in the hospitial just after saying "watch this"), but I am sensing that somehow there are a few people who are giving up on this and now are pushing more towards more govt regulation and control.

I cant not agree with this not even slightly as I have been around long engough to know that most things our legislators get involved with ends up being a mess due to problems so indepth many of us could not even begin to understand or even count them all.

If our efforts are to be beneficial and help us to the best results possible we have to put our politics aside and just do whats best for our sport, and the countless new people who will be joining in.

So try and keep things moving forward, and lets concentrate on doing it right, and working together.

Oh and everyone have a Happy New Year!!!

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"It is a tragedy.. one played out many times every day. I am kind of on the fence on this as far as the law goes. I guess my gut says that as long as the law applies to every situation, and is applied fairly, then I agree with it. It was stupid act. If however the charge is because it involved an ATV, and THAT was the real reas on the charge was brought, then I'd be against it."

DB</end quote></div>



You are correct, insuring the "responsible adult" is held accountable for their actions in all matters concerning injury and death of a child is a reasonable expectation. This level of accountability is already in place in the area of DUI enforcement where an adult is found to be operating a MV under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and transporting children while impaired.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"The really disturbing thing here, is that I have done it myself with my own son. I got away with it. I knew it was wrong, and I thought that nothing would go wrong. That is why they call them accidents. I do not condone it, but I understand why it happened..."

DB </end quote></div>



The fact that you, and most likely thousands of others, have done this and got away with it, is exactly why we need to use incidents like this as examples to others, BEFORE the next occurrence.



The FCC requires TV and radio stations to regularly broadcast "public service announcements" (PSAs). Has anyone ever viewed an "ATVs are NOT toys for unsupervised children" PSA? Or, "Adults who allow children to operate ATVs to large for their age can, and will be prosecuted for child endangerment!" How about showing a segment of an unsafe act, followed by the re-enacted outcome. Then, the responsible adult is shown standing before a judge and pronounced guilty of a serious crime. Keep it simple, and to the point.



I will buffer my call for these fatal occurrences to be widely publicized with this. For the sake of the surviving family members, actual events should not be broadcast in the home media market of the family suffering the loss. For example, the death in Maryland of the 2-1/2-year-old who was allowed to operate an ATV for ages 6 and up, would not be rebroadcast in that market. However, that broadcast would air in North Carolina. Conversely, the death of the 3-year-old and prosecution of the responsible adult in North Carolina would be aired in the Maryland market.



In the early 1970's, it was a common practice to load a cooler with ice and beer, and place it on the floor of the back seat within reach of the driver and passenger. Once off base, we'd drink all the way to the beach, and back again. When a friend of ours was arrested, convicted, served time in the county jail, and lost two stripes after injuring a local in an "accident" -- it affected how many of us viewed the issue of drinking and driving. Not all, but many of us learned from the misfortune of our friend, and the consequences he suffered as a result of his actions. No, we'll never reach out to everyone. But, I believe we can reach out to many of the parents, and other adults who may not always think about their irresponsible actions, if not reminded from time to time.</end quote></div>


I am not sure if our opinions on the entire country's loss of responsibility for ones own actions is going to help much, but I think all would agree that it would be tough to change the thousands of laws that somehow distort the legal deffinition of fault, liability, and responsibility just in order for the entire legal profession to be able to profit from peoples own stupidity.

The problem isnt the machines, or the people in this sport who have half a brain and actually use it, but I believe the answers will somehow have to come from this small segment of our sport (yes the ones who use their heads) and additional govt involvement will lead to its eventual doom.

 

I believe my comments were misjudged. What was meant was for you to understand that today, I am a much different person than what I was 10 or 15 years ago. Certainly, I have changed my habits and today would not make the same mistakes. That is what experience teaches you. I admitted to doing it because I can empathise with the guy. I know just how easy it is to give in to a grandchild's request. Busting his butt isn't going to change the outcome, and what I said was OK enforece the law IF the laws are applied fairly, not singling out ATV riders. Too often the law will be applied stronger against an ATV rider, while persons who do much worse things like multiple DUI's etc virtually get a slap on the wrist. I too have issues with the CPSC guidelines as they stand today, because for one thing, our kids are larger than they were then. Plus, the technology today is so much more advanced than what we had 30 years ago. They need updating. I would like to see a larger framed machine somewhere around the size of a Blaster, and have a motor around a 125 on it. I'd like to see kids from 12 to 16 able to ride this new class of machine. That one change would at least get a lot of kids legal. Would it help the stats? Not sure. But it would take them off the full size machines with much larger engines... Who is to say. At least I would hope so. It would be worth a shot.
EEresq, My comments on the double standard were aimed at pointing out that on one hand comments are there concerning busting everyone's butt that does illegal things, and then admitting that only the one guy got busted, while others didn't get caught. They were just as guilty were they not? Who is to say if men of honor should have spoken up and turned themselves in to show solidarity with their friend. The point is every situation is different.. and you can't point fingers and say that all should be treated to the maximum.. especially if they have not. I admit to doing things that seemed like they were fun and cool then, but today I am a bit ashamed that I did them. I freely admit them just the same. And I bet there are very few of us here who have not at one time or another broken a rule or law of one type or another on their ATV. We learn from our mistakes.. some of us get away with it, others are not so lucky. Like I said, I can relate... and I was lucky. I am not proud or boastfull about that... In fact like I said, I am ashamed at some of the things I got away with. They make good stories, but were worng just the same...

 

Draggin

I hear you loud and clear, and experience truely is the best teacher as far as things being solidly engraved into our brains goes (we tend to remember things better when we experience them first hand rather than being trained etc).

Also I fully understand that everyone makes mistakes, but we dont all have the same outcomes. I am honestly saddend when I hear of people who have just lost a loved one have to endure further loss due to the many misuses of our legal system. See this is where I personally have a real issue with the opinion some have (both in our legal system and law enforcement as well as some here) that there is a need for our govt to have to get involved in order to further punish and make examples of these people who only made mistakes.

I think we all have made our share of mistakes, but not that many have had to pay the ultimate price for it. I also would think that many of us have had a family member or friend who was injured in some way or even killed from the results of a bad decision. I am not only talking ATV's here but just how life can show us how fragile it really is in an instant.

Many just accept these bad decisions or mistakes as part of life, accept what has happened and move forward best they can, but a small amount found out years ago that there were people in the legal system that could mis interpet things in a way that would allow the family a award in court by suing someone and passing the buck on responsibility. Sadly it seems this group is now in the majority, and these actions as they have grown have allowed "Big Brother" to get involved further and now the process can include all kinds of problems if a legal age family member was found to be involved with the injury of a juvenile. Sure these are still only mistakes etc, but now everything is based on law, and many of these have little to do with right or wrong, and owning up to ones true responsibility.

I have to say once again that education (and experience) will be what ulitmately leads to further reduction in injury as our sport continues to grow, and there will always be people in any circumstance who make bad decisions no matter their training or education. This honestly is a problem that goes well beyond atv's and there are very many underlying causes that lead up to the bad decisions, and from the looks of things these will be part of a growing problem in our country even if we continue to increase the safety level in our sport.

In many conversations I have had with people uch older than myself its interesting that the overwhelming majority of them seem to enjoy remembering a time when family took care of their own, accepted responsibility for their own actions, and pretty much built the foundation that allowed our country to become as great as it is today without the unwarranted intrusion of govt and policy etc. into every aspect of our lives.

There are literally millions of Americans who believe in their hearts that no matter how smart, stupid, or otherwise a parent or other leading famliy members actions may be there is an inherant American responsibility to not only take responsibility for their actions, but that the loss is more than punishment enough for the entire family. Lets face it the loss of a child is beyond devestating and the idea of prosecuting a grandfather for the loss of his grandson is a bad idea from every angle I can see. Sure it will make the newspapers and nightly news, but it will not help the family one bit, and will never undo what has been done.

These actions may get the attention of people outside the sport, and make them believe things that are not true about ATV's and even our legal system, but it is not a deterant or educational message, and will not cause the people who need to be making a priority of gaining all the information possible before including a child in their activities to wake up and make sure they are fully aware, and prepared for what they are chosing to do to actually make a large enough effort to do things properly.

I dont want to sound like I am repeating myself but the only true cure is educate the people who need it most, and in this case it is anyone entering the sport. We have discussed the many ways to do this, and it appears that no one seems to think that jailing and making examples of family victims etc is going to help anyone learn about proper operation, safety gear, age limits, and pretty much anything else that would actually be a benefit.

Look at it in a simlar way as the many laws against stealing, mugging, murder and the like that dont seem to deter the countless millions of people who currently over populate our countless prisons in our country. We have to accept that people do things that they will later regret, but we have to maintain an obvious seperation of legitimate mistakes and accidents (no matter how stupid they may appear) and straight out crimes.

I know some will now preach to us about everything from the govt's responsibility to fix things (somehow never seems to work that way anyhow) and to protect our children from their families, but lets not lose sight of the real issue of who is ulitimately responsible for their family in the first place, and that a parents choices no matter good or bad that only affect their family directly are punished or rewarded by laws that are well above any of ours, and its their family that either prospers or suffers loss from it.

 

EER would it be so bad if we actually punished people based on the results of their actions instead of creating an entire income based system that fines them for the potential for their actions?

How about making people responsible period, and rewrite everything so that the penalties are extremely more severe than they are today, but that it also has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the conditions existed (DUI, Reckless etc) and they contributed to the severity of the resulting damages or injury?

Have to admit I chuckle sarcasticly every time I hear of a driver being dragged thru the system and paying insane amounts for being rear ended while stopped while under the influence. Wasnt the idea to stop people from hurting others while DUI?

I know we could go around with some of these for hours (I actually share some of your thoughts, but in different ways) but I believe that many more Americans would back some of the contraversial laws if they were written with the sole intent of making life better for us all instead of being infected with all kinds of special interest, political contributions, and ultimately aimed at another method of earning income without having to be labled with incresing taxes.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: EEResQ

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Classes would do no good, instruction would be wasted. A confrontation would not have accomplished a thing. Enforcement is always after the fact. An initial grounding in manners and consideration would seem to be the first step in accomplishing any movement towards safety................" Tass</end quote></div>



Everything you said is 100% accurate. However, one of the conditions we're trying to change is:

"Enforcement is always after the fact."



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>When I spoke to one of the riders of the situation he replied "We have as much right to be here as you do". He was correct, they do have as much right. When I mentioned the obvious safety problems he said "No-one was hurt, what are you worried about?".

Tass</end quote></div>



If a police officer, sheriff's deputy, highway patrol officer or state police trooper (KY's version of HP) pulls over a motor vehicle observed operating in a reckless manner, is the driver let go because he states: "No one was hurt, what are you worried about?". Of course not. In fact if this was his response to a Kentucky State Trooper, his day would've turned very ugly, very fast!



So, why do we tolerate the totally irresponsible behavior of ATV and snowmobile operators, but not the irresponsible behaivor of motor vehicle operators? Dead is dead, whether by MVA or ATVA.



Here's a link to an article outlining a very successful program targeting underage drinking and driving.

"Strategies for Success: Combating Juvenile DUI"

This program combines "Reactive & Proactive Law Enforcement" with "Education & Publicity."



Using this program as a template, it would not be difficult to modify and develop a similar program targeting unsafe off-highway vehicle (OHV) operation. As I have been preaching: "No new laws."--

"Just enforcement of existing laws and safety regulations as they apply to OHVs."



BTW, a program similar to what I propose is taking shape here. It's a cooperative effort by the Kentucky Dept. of Agriculture and the Kentucky State Police. As it moves forward, I'll keep this forum updated.</end quote></div>