Bob,
Oaky,
1) How many years has other manufactures been producing water cooled motors, It has taken Honda until the 2001 model release to figure it out?
2)Disc brakes aren't always better? when? Why do all cars have them on the front? The front has atleast 60% of the stopping power, Disc brakes get the job done more efficiently, keep cooler, and cost less.
3)suspension travel is not in the length? I guess you have never ridden a machine with aftermarket shocks!!! The difference is night and day. I ought to find that old suzuki we owned and let you take it for a spin. I bet you will be saying shocks make a lot of difference. If they don't make a difference then why do all the off-road enthusiasts run longer than stock shocks? It's to soak up the bumps!!! ATV's are the same.
4) I guess increasing market share is not a good sign what consumers want?
5)gee, we agree on something hehehehe LOL isn't it a pain to have to haul extra fuel on all day rides?
6)Again same point as number 1 why has it taken so long. Polaris has been doing since 1986.
7) I wasn't comparing Honda with Honda. I was comparing Honda with everyone else.
8) I think this comes down to personal preception. I have ridden other machines and been around enough to see that other manufacutres are just as dependable and have just as good of quality as the Honda. I think we agree on this point too!!!!
9)I agree with you on the price issue, but its not necessarily a lower price you are paying. it's what you are getting for the same dollars. Other machines are offering newer technology and many additional features and accessories for the same price as the Honda. Again personal preference. I would prefer to buy another machine and feel like I am getting more of a machine than just a sticker on the side that says a certain name.

 

1). It didn't take them this long to figure it out. They weren't having any problems with the air/oil cooled motors in the other bikes. While water-cooling has it's benefits, it also adds weight, complexity, and additional items to fail. Why fix if it ain't broke?
2). Why aren't all brakes disc brakes? Because they aren't always the best solution. Most times, maybe, but not always. How many folks complaining about the Honda's not having disc's are also complaining about wear and grit causing braking problems. Kawasaki probably now has the best solution, but let's see if the Rubicon has brake problems. Regardless if past Honda may have had problems, just like we're trying not to judge new bikes on how other models may have fared in the past.
3). Nope, not what I said. But length alone does not mean better. A quad does not need 24 inches of shock travel. And a quad with 7" of shock travel may work better than one with a shock travel of 9". Bigger numbers don't always mean better performance. And I have ridden bikes and ATV's with aftermarket shocks. However, I never mentioned aftermarket shocks in my reply. We were talking about new quads, I thought.
4). Well, Honda has been holding the #1 position. When they start to lose it, they'll figure out why. They have before.
5). We probably agree on more than just this.
6). So, that doesn't mean Honda had to do it! Good for Polaris, but that doesn't mean all the others must jump in line and do it too. I didn't want an automatic, till I tried on. There are a lot of folks that prefer to shift themselves. Plus, Polaris has standard shifts now as well, right. So automatic aren't the end-all, be-all.
7). I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Honda improving their quads. But so what if others are wider and longer. That by itself is not better and longer. A mine or coal) truck is begger, wider, has longer shocks, and a more powerful engine that a normal pickup, but that doesn't mean it's better for what the normal user needs.
8). Sorry, I was disagreeing with the words from your original statement "Better quality at lower price". I agree with "equal quality at lower price" maybe, but it's all subjective.
9). Again, value is subjective. More stuff for the same money, better stuff for the same money. And folks do put value on reputation. Honda's reputation is earned. And it can be lost. And I also own a Polaris, and believe that they are gaining a reputation for dependability. They are impressing me on a daily basis. But the Ruby is not all just name recognition.

 

Okay, I agree to your exagerated point about the shock travel. However The length of the shock does play an important role in either softening the landings from a jump or just keeping the wheels on the ground in rough terrain. If I had a quad with only 5" of shock travel vs. one with 7" going over a curb at a 45 degree angle the one with 5" of travel is going to lift the other wheel off the ground causing the bike to be tipsy. On the other hand a quad with 7" of travel in the same situation will allow both wheels to remain in contact with the ground.
So, shock length does play an important role. I also understand that there is more to a shock than just length that helps it perform its duties.
I also understand that increasing shock travel does raise the center of gravity of the machine. This would be the only reason I can see as to why a shock with less travel would be better.

 

We're slowly working toward agreement. I am totally with you, that a long-travel shock is usually better than a short-travel shock. But don't judge them on travel alone. Without seeming like we're fighting about something else, I was trying (unsuccessfully) to make the point that one manufactor's 7-inch travel shock set-up can perform poorly, and much worse than a competitor's 5 inch travel set-up. Equal quality, the longer travel should be better. But that's the rub. So I was trying to say "try 'em, before declaring them a winner", and don't just go by who has the better stats. Anyway, ttaylor, good discussion, see ya on the trails!

 

Holyman....exactly. That's what i said, until somone comes along with drastic changes, quads will stay the way they are. Why spend money trying to improve a product when it sells. They have basically no competition. Everyone else is selling the same bikes when you get down to it. Why should yamaha change? We know they won't because they still continue to sell the banshees. Despite the fact they are a 13 year outdated design, they are the only two-stroke performer. They'll sell no matter what. Until we see another two stroke machine i doubt we will see any changes in the banshee.