This could turn out to be a very interesting topic.

Everybody claims to build a better mousetrap (or motor in this case). My question, Who's the best and why?

So lets see who is out there to begin with. Duncan, Trinity, LRD and CT are a few of the heavy advertisers. Then you have your local dealerships and then your local small shop mechanic.

So what are the big advertisers offering that others don't? Is the quality in workmanship above par? Do they stand behind their product and give great customer service? How about the power to dollar ratio? Do they use cheaper gaskets and materials to keep cost down while sacrificing reliability?

As we all know if you call some place up they will always tell you what you want to hear. But as consumers what do we think of these companies?

Me personally, I usually take my bikes to my local small shop. Great service and prices and a good guy. Willing to give me advice over the phone. Only problem is he is limited on his ability to handle major problems.

If it's something he can't fix or if I'm in doubt of his ability I'll go to the dealership and get nailed with the high prices and long turn around time.

I've never gone the route of the "professional builders" ie Trinity, but I am curious as to how good they really are. I plan on pulling my motor in the 250R real soon and I'm wondering if it is actually worth it to crate it up and ship it to one of these guys. And if it is, Who?

So for those of you that actually have done this, lets see what you think. Let me know the high and lows of your "consumer experience" Also let me know why you didn't use your local shop or dealer for your rebuild.

Lets really see whos the best in our minds and why.

Oh and by the way all you mags. This is another subject that should have been touched on if you only had the juevos. Maybe I should start my own mag that deals with the facts and not caring if I burn somebodys product and lose backing. No company is perfect and if there is a better company for that product then it would give the others something to aim for.

"Just my opinion, I could be wrong"

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'96 Banshee, '86 250R 4TRX, 2 '83 185S

 

Well it appears that I am alone in my quest for knowledge about this topic. In any case I will post to myself (just incase somebody actually is interested) in what I have found.

Trinity Racing told me that for them to do a rebuild on my 250R motor it would run me from about $1100 on up. This price includes splitting the cases, inspecting all the gears, bore port and polish. Replacing the piston, rings, rod, bearings seals and gaskets and putting a pipe on the bike. The work that they would do would give me a 30% increase in HP and maintain 80% of the stock reliability. They also said if I brought them the whole bike the would pull the motor for me and also do a dyno tune when complete for an extra $261.

LRD Racing told me that they would do all the stuff that Trinity would do as far as inspecting all the parts, the bore port and polish. They also said that they would replace all the parts that needed to be replaced but the thing that really caught my interest is that they will also replace anything that they think might be a problem down the road. LRD seemed more interested in the reliability then in just building up the motor. I personally like that. They also spoke of using better "quality" parts in the rebuild. However they also quoted me $1500 on up on the price.

Interesting note, both companies said "you get what you pay for"

Last call I made was to my local Honda dealer. They said they would do a complete rebuild and get the bike back to Honda specs. Replace anything that showed wear. Basically just get the motor back in showroom stock shape. No port, polish or trick stuff. Total cost using all Honda parts and including the Honda warrenty $500 or less.

Hmmm, is the 250R fast and reliable in stock form? If I take it to one of these hypo shops am I going to get a motor that will last me as long as this one has (13 years)? If I put more $ into the bike will I ever get it out if I ever decide to sell? Is a totally stock 250R going to be worth more than an aftermarket rebuild down the road?

So has anybody else got any thoughts on this subject now that can help me with my choice? C'mon who's got rebuilds that they want to talk about?



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'96 Banshee, '86 250R 4TRX, 2 '83 185S

 

Here's been my experience. I operate out of the shop at my house, after my 9 to 5'er, under the guise of Patriot Racing. The current focus of my business is mainly R&R worn parts (piston, bearings, etc...) I do offer performance alterations, chiefly the easy stuff--pipes, reed valves, carbs.....Also I work closely with a premier engine builder in developing motors(porting alterations) for customers who desire more. By no means am I promoting myself, rather am using it as background to support this post.

During the course of many rebuilds I have had the opportunity to see first hand who's work looks like what. Also I have had to order parts and have machining services provided some of the shops you have mentioned. Most of the big meat and potatoe shops do nearly identical work. Arlan at LRD is the chief port grinder, and his work is on par with everyone else. At Trinity if you get Harry you'll be OK. Alan Knowles at CT does really good work. I would put him above the aformentioned in developing well balanced and thought out motors. Most of the dis-assy. and re-assy. work will be done by someone other than the "names" behind the shop. It's pure business.

The porting alterations from most of the big names shops are porting specs that have evolved slightly over the years. Rider feedback and advances in 2 stroke engine theory have driven these changes. Most of the porting specs are similar in characteristics. It's ready made motors that function very well, easily repeatable, and serve most customers fully.

Now, who should do any work for you. I've always used the rule, that I'm the customer and what I want is what I should get unless there is compelling reasons otherwise. If you call up shop "A" and say you want your motor to be "X" tune, and they say no-no-no, you need "Y" tune, ask why, again compelling reasons. You're the one who has to ride it not them. However, they do, by virtue of exposure to lots of riders, are able to help point you in the right direction if your intentions are somewhat unclear. It's always been my experience that riders that are into their motors, tend to pick one shop, and that shop is "The" shop. There's a myriad of factors involved; hearing what you already knew(hey we think alike), good service and knowledgeable staff that fits your "ideal" of what that should consist of.

From what you describe about your intentions with your 250R, I would reccomend these several ideas. Have the motor rebuilt, but...with a Honda service manual and a little mechanical knowledge, it can be accomplished by most riders,(you may need to ask some friends to borrow a flywheel puller ($15-$20), and a clutch hub tool ($25-$30)). Otherwise I would reccomend using your local Honda dealer to completely rebuild this motor, replacing ALL the parts, even the ones deemed--Oh this should last for awhile. In some cases, they want your business back and they would be more happy to go back into your motor at a (sooner or much) later date to replace the "it's OK for now" parts.

In the lines of performance upgrades, there are several simple easily performed mods that will help boost the performance a tad, but importantly in your case, retain the utmost of reliability. A aftermarket pipe, (I reccomend a Paul Turner in your choice of state of tune) and a RAD Valve. About $300 and a very nice gain in power and throttle response for the money spent.

As I mentioned before, everyone has thier "shop", but I'm an advocate for doing your own work. Saving a weekends ride from knowing how to perform repairs yourself, is worth its weight in gold. I've rebuilt bottom ends on tailgates, when 6 or 7 years ago I didn't know how to change a carb. needle. The learning curve is short and steep, before long it becomes very simple to do everything to a motor. Many of the 2 stroke performance motors are similar in design.

Quoting here "...that's my two cents..."

 

I just bought my first 2 stroke, an LT 250R, and decided to rebuild it my self. It was not as difficult as I had first thought, and whenever you do stump your toe and need some help you can get it here or by calling one of the companies you have mentioned. Most of them really will give you any specs or recomendations you need. I did send my cylinder off to be ported polished and bored. Then did the rest my self. FMF is also another company who does quality machine work.

I finished my quadracer today! well all but puting the head on. Monday my son was playing in my shop and thought that my head gasket looked like a really neat toy. so i had to order a new one and it will be in on friday.
Now wouldn't you think that your Suzuki dealer would carry gasket sets in their inventory?

Clark

 

Finally some input. Thanks so much.

Personally I do like to work on the bikes. However I like to fix them after they are already broken. Since the bike is not actually down and I'm looking for a good rebuild from top to bottom I'd prefer to let a professional do it. I'm good at teardown and putting back together but I honestly have no idea on how to look for stressed parts nor do I know what may be a problem area in the motor. If I could crack it open and see a broken gear that is one thing but to be able to look at a gear and and say "its bad" when it's not cracked is another. Thats the only reason I'm going to a pro.

Keep the comments coming I love the info.

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'96 Banshee, '86 250R 4TRX, 2 '83 185S

 

That was a point that I overlooked. It does take some experience to be able to look at machined parts and deduce the amount of wear, and how much wear is acceptable. So what are your thoughts on performance modifications??? Any choices of what you would like???

 

Hey Darby,I have had great experience with a guy that does his buisness in his shop behind his house in town. So far, I have taken my 250R in there for a complete rebuild, my 350X for a complete rebuild, and when him and I have time, I'm going to take my 350 4 bye in there as well. He is extremely good and trustworthy and reliable. He charges a whole lot less than the cycle shop and in my opinion does a whole lot better job. When I took my "R" in there I think it cost about 700 for a complete overhaul, higher compression piston kit, bigger carb, ported/polished, new top end, and a bunch of other little things. Now it runs as smooth as a cadylac. I had to replace one of my side cases on my 350X before I put it in the laeger frame, so I gave him a call again. He rebuilt the whole motor and put a 12:1 piston in it( I think it's a 12) and polished the side covers for close to 500, I think. Those small shops and mom and pop type places are (in my area anyway) probably the best place to go. Of course you don't get cool "LRD" or "Trinity Racing" stickers, but I can live without them.

350XX, 250R, 200XX, 450S

 

Actually I want to keep the 250R as close to stock as possible. A stock 250R as clean as mine is very hard to find. I figure in the long run it will probably be worth more than a modified one. I figure the most I'll do is a mild port and polish and add the Paul Turner pipe (keeping the stock one for the resale) None of the above mods will put any undo wear on the motor and therefore I'll be able to keep my stock reliability while increasing the output and response a bit.

While it's down I'm also going to take the stock Showa shocks in for a rebuild as well.

I keep talking about the 250R but I'm also using this info for my Banshee. However so far my decision is leaning towards my local Yamaha dealer (Mission Yamaha's Speed Tech) for the work on the Banshee. In a couple of months I'm going to have them do a port and polish, reshape the head (since I found out that the cool heads are more for looks than performance) and trick my carbs out. They told me $619 and I don't think thats going to get beat.

Down the road though when I end up splitting the cases for a major rebuild, I'm going to go and rebuild, replace, true, match and blueprint the whole motor. I'll probably dump 2-3K into it at that time to build the highest output, highest reliability motor I can. Who can do this kind of work? Well so far I' like LRD. Arlans got style and I like his attitude. I actually spoke to a parts shop who said they don't like dealing with LRD because Arlan is too picky, I think thats a good thing.

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'96 Banshee, '86 250R 4TRX, 2 '83 185S



[This message has been edited by Darby Crash (edited 08-26-1999).]

 

Arlan at LRD is a good person to have owrk done. I order alot of parts from them because they are the closest to me, and have found that thier customer service(from the counter help & Arlan)is excellent, but really what has sold me is that I have spent lots of time on the phone with Arlan, who personally took the time to discuss some items of interest with me!!! That's hard to find, especially when I hadn't even ordered parts/services.

This last 4th of July weekend while riding at Coos Bay, OR, I cracked my ultra-super-zoot 2 plug 250R head(welding flaw), I called Arlan up gave him the specs, detailed my perdicament, and two days later I had a Cool Head in hand to go off riding again. It required him to totally machine a new dome due to me having the big bore kit, but he got it done promptly. There was a bit of miscommunication, concering O-rings vs. a head gasket, so I had to use a head gasket that mellowed out my compression ratio a tad, but it certaintly saved "THE" ride of the year for us.

Arlan offers excellent packages for both your R and Banshee, I think that you'll like what you get. His pipes I haven't had as much as exposure as I would like to have to date, mainly due to me choosing PTR pipes whenever feasible. But when at his shop a few times he has mentioned that his pipes are better, but so does everyone else. ; )

Arlan also offers piston coating in-house that will add even more reliabilty and longevity to your motor.

He also does offer suspension modification/rebuild.

I think that you'll get a good shake from Arlan and his crew. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Backcountry (edited 08-26-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Backcountry (edited 08-26-1999).]

 

Arlen Also offers stock shock rebuilds that end up better than the original.

I needed a rebuild for a 86250r rear shock and he offered great advice.For $345.00 he would tear it down change the piston and spring give it two more inches of travel recharge and set to your weight.

The stock shock on a 86 250r is comparible with a $700.00 works shock.And with his rebuild it has two inches longer travel.