Originally posted by: propnut
First, quit blowing smoke again. I think the MV is cool for what it is and would have taken one over the Mules we had. There's really no comparison, so if I was looking for something like this, I'd have no choice. However, I don't see one bad thing I wrote about Polaris in this thread. My personal choice of ATV does have something to do with this thread, but my opinion of Polaris does not and has not come into this conversation - so get that straight. Just questioned the cost of the contract in my pointing out extra money paid to Polaris to develop their ATV into something it isn't, which is my right. If we didn't check these things, more Boeing air-tanker deals would continue to fleece the taxpayer. Looks like this measly $10M is below the radar. Anyway, another inflamatory statement from hardhead meant to influence the majority of people glancing over this thread.

Propnut, I think I can point to a number of threads where you have bashed Polaris quite bad. So please don't hide behind that in this thread. People can easily do a search to verify that. And since you posted about this contract only to inflame the discussion you deserve it.

And you have bashed the rest of the world, and every other ATV brand with your blind belief and matter-of-fact (or fiction) statements that American products are always best. Nevermind your myth that buying American always employs the guy next store.

No, my point is quite clear. It is better to buy American. And I don't see that it is a myth.

Well part of the Buy American argument was the subsidies foreign companies get. Well the US does it too.

That was my point. But it is good that you understand it!

Never said they weren't spending enough. Never read such nonsense that had nothing to do with the point being made. Wait! theres 16 pages of this mumbo jumbo. You'd sound pretty smart if this was fact and not fiction.

If you don't like my numbers, go to the Boeing and Airbus websites to verify it. And I think you have posted enough nonsense for the both of us.

Augusta Westland is doing OK now too as Bush ordered a new helicopter fleet, designed and partially built overseas, that won't even be delivered until he's out of office! Doesn't that just make your blood boil? Off the subject a lot, how about their secret energy policy, good time to be a Texas oilman, hmmmm? Bush's policies, he did a great job with the US steel industry too. But you wouldn't be concerned with that, right? It isn't a car, steel workers aren't your neighbors and family.

You just want to rule the world, don't you

There is a difference between ruling the world and being dominant in an economic sector. As a matter of fact, I prefer if we don't rule the world.

Now you are trying to limit my free speech (like my freedom to choose a non-American product if you had the chance).

LOL, not hardly, with the things that you have said in this thread, you are pretty much sticking your foot in your own mouth, which does even a better job of limiting your speech.

Lukester, some see pride as arrogance, conceit, or bravado.

I find it interesting how many different names we have been called in this thread. It seems that this guy cannot win in any kind of intelligent argument, so he just calls us more names. However, I would like to point out that it is not unusual for people in a country to favor brands that are made in that country. This is not just an American phenomenon; it happens everywhere.

 

Originally posted by: propnut
sorry Lukester, but defending my right to free speech has NOTHING to do with defending a private, for profit, American manufacturer - which is what you guys are doing. I never knocked America, never would.

I don't see the problem with defending any manufacturer if it is appropriate. GM is only an example of what is happening to a number of American companies. I don't know about you never knocking America, but you have never posted a positive post about anything on this thread. Since you have only been bashing American companies, people, management, then who have you been bashing? Isn't America the combination of its people, companies, military, leaders.. Show me one post you have not bashed them. Then you have the nerve to call us names!!

I refuse to back a manufacturer simply because the are based in America. I refuse to be so arrogant to think that just because it is American made it is better than everything else.

Yes, and this is exactly why we are arguing. And for the record, we are arguing mostly why it is better to buy America, not whose products are better. On the other hand, we have touched on specifics because they were brought up.

 

The Vibe and the matrix were brought up in an eariler post, but not discussed. Both models are based on a shared platform created in a partnership between Toyota and Gm. Why would the Vibe be more expensive if alomst all the options are equal? ( with the Free-For-You Discount, it is cheaper, but before the discounts, incentives, the Vibe is still identical to the matirx, only more money and GM badged.

 

Vibe vs matrix

Comparisons of the Vibe and the matrix. I am all for buying American. My family grew up working in the Gm powertrain plants, but some things make you wonder.

 

Link no worky [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

 

Try Again

Maybe this will work

Or you can go to GM and compare the two.

 

If you look at the equipment closely, the Vibe has more stuff standard and more stuff available that's not even offered in the Matrix. It looks like the Pontiac version is a more upscale of the two.

I say skip it and buy a Malibu Maxx. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Sorry for bringing up older stuff, but I had to take a break from this and was away for a little.

Anyhow your armada is still ugly [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Na na na na na LMAO

Oh and it is still a nissan (or is it really still datsun [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] )

Anyhow there is so much more to all of this than towing capacity (I had a suzuki samurai that towed a 20ft 2200lb boat plus full fluids gear and the trailer and the total was around 3,000plus so anything is possible [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] ) and even whats ugly or not.

What I do agree with is that when maintained properly many of the domestic and imports can and will surpass 200K miles. I have had them both, and seen it happen.

Even though I think or rather know there are major differences between not only the domestic and foreign cars were talking about, but there is also a major difference between the euro and asian ones too.

Even though Ford has pretty much destroyed or what most call modernized many of the euro brands like volvo etc they are still producing a vehicle with a lot more "substance" than the similar priced models from Japan.

Even the little S40 which is a total joke compared to the models produced in the recent past (240,740,760, 960, 80 etc) when you compare what actually makes up the whole car etc will put a pure spanking on the tin can competition in its price range (low 20's to low 30's) but you have to be able to see beyond the cup holders.

Now I am not saying buying a volvo is buying american even though its really a Ford (can you spin that to say "can you afford a ford lol) but the point is that from the quality of the leather to the design and strength of the frame and suspension to just about everything being just a bit higher quality etc they still dont sell in any comparison to the leading models from Japan.

So even comparing import to import there is obvious results of brain washing of the buyer, and more people are willing to dish out their cash for a plain jane tin can because they believe its the best thing since sliced bread.

 

I hear you on that, but its really getting harder and harder to purchase products made in the good ole USA.

I think this has been mentioned earlier, but with all the economic pressures we (the twindling middle class, and what will soon very possiblly be the working poor) have seen over the last twenty or so years I dont think many of us can actually afford to buy many products made here.

You can agree or disagree with this but as we have allowed the infiltration into our economy from foreign companies and their products to the staggering point we have now we have also allowed ourselves to lower our very own purchasing power, income level, and once again quality of life.

As the countries richest people and corporations have seen increased profits and wealth beyond their dreams we have seen just the opposite as their windfalls have come at our expense as they have made their billions by removing the higher cost american worker, and replacing them with prison labor and unbelievable wages etc.

Now that things are to the current levels we have now were basically faced with either purchasing inferior imports, doing without, or lowering our quality of life even more by trying to purchase domestic products on our current incomes that were reduced due to foreign competition.

You can slice it or dice it anyway you like, but when you compare the costs of most anything and everything from the last forty years and compare those results to wage increases, and tax increases its obvious how poorly were really doing as a nation.

I recently took a few minutes when I had a chance to look over just a couple items and their averages from 1970 to 2002 (latest info they had) and it provided some substance and provoked additional thinking as well to all of this. Remember this was supposedly a national average so memories could be different, and I am too young to really put up a good argument anyhow [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Major items like autos, refrig, real estate etc multiplied several times during the term, but others like milk, bread, clothing, various nick naks etc didnt see nearly as large of change.

I wish I had saved a copy (none were avail) but when you see auto costs go from 3,000 to nearly 30,000 and housing from 20,000 to nearly 300,000 but milk only jumping from .50 to 2.00 bread from .40 to 1.80 and even fuel costs if you exclude the last year seeing such a small adjustment etc, you have to wonder what was the driving forces that provided such a drastic difference.

Clothing and small household items were even more interesting, but their smaller range would seem to be obviously driven by the invasion of low cost imports.

What would we be doing if we suddenly had to pay a similar increase in price on items like clothing and small appliances etc or even milk and bread? Would we still be fat and happy enough to allow our country to go down the sh!tter driving to work in our toyotas and hondas if we had to pay 8.00 for milk, 800.00 for a suit, 250.00 for a toaster, or even 400.00 for a decent meal for two out etc etc etc.

I dont know if everyone is getting it, but there is a viscious cycle working here where lower paid workers have a serious need for lower priced products (mfg jobs v/s bs retail or fast food etc) and the increase in imports that is fueling it is also increasing the problem by causing additional stress on the wages from increasing the amount of good paying jobs lost etc.

Another thing to consider is that many of the current retirement age americans worked in various industries that provided a pension that is allowing them to continue to make ends meet under the current conditions ( I know those without them that are really having a tough time) but what will happen in 10, 20 or even thirty years when the larger amount of workers without pensions (thanks imports lol) who already cashed in much of their own savings and 401's etc to fill the gaps caused by their pay scale that was so effected by imports have to stop working and retire? Will they be able to fund the banking industry like the current group of 60+ retirees we have now? Will they cause additional burden on their strugling children trying to make things work out for themselves?

Sorry to those who think everything is rosey and additional imports are a good thing, but I think without some sort of miracle (maybe all the third world nations will get up to our pay scale and expense really really fast, but I doubt it) things are going to get serioulsy ugly in the not so far future.

Maybe consider taking up a new language in your spare time, and when you reach those golden years you will be able to find affordable living in your very own prospering thrid world country [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

 

OK...I have to jump back in. The middle class is moving UP not down. Statistically, this has been shown many times. Those "staggering" increases that you listed are simply inflation. However, what you don't mention is how mass production of items that were luxury items have come way down in price. Yes, part of that is because of low cost imports. At the same time, quality of life is through the roof. Even the average family living in so called poverty has a car, multiple color TVs, a computer with internet, cable, and many other luxuries.

I realize you have issues in New Jersey. But, you may want to take a look at your tax system. THAT is one of the major problems you have to deal with. In fact, areas like the North East and the West Coast suffer more from taxes than flyover country.

I read several articles on New Jersey taxes. Man, you guys are getting soaked! Your property tax is outrageous. Mismanaged government and overcharging the constituents hurts the economy far more than imports. Governments "pproduce" nothing. They only take.

To blame all of those social issues on low cost imports is a stretch. No, it is beyond a stretch. So, what I have said alll along still applies. We need to embrace the global economy rather than try and be protectionists. If we attack it with the vengeance that our country attacks other challenges, we will remain THE global power. Otherwise, we are in trouble. It seems like several people here are blaming everything but cancer on imports.

BTW...I still love my Mississippi made Armada. Those folks did a fine job on a great vehicle. And, I'll take a Datsun! My second car was a 78 280Z with twin carbs, WHat a fun car to drive!!