I don't know if you've heard of the talk of the KQ's low end lag severely detuned by Suzuki on take of for saftey reasons but It'll be interesting to drag the BF 750 and KQ when Yoshimira releashes it's low end lag fix for the KQ, then the KQ will have that snapier take off and the race will be fair, and who know's it could possible take the BF in a 300ft drag since you said the King passes it, that would be awesome since the KQ has a single cylinder.

By the way, I like almost everything about my KQ, never driven a BF 750.

 

I don't own both but I get to ride both a lot. I have said many times I like the KQ, but there were things that I liked more on the BF. The KQ is easier to ride and suites trail riders well. The more I have ridden the BF the more comfortable I am with it and the more impressive it becomes. It is not plush or refined. It's a BRUTE, but that makes it fun, and since I ride for fun its a good quad for me. I love pulling wheelies, riding on two wheels, sliding around corners at mach 2 and jumping at the sand dunes. It's the only quad I have ridden that you can lift the front end up like a sport quad at will. The KQ is a very good quad I just happen to be happy with my Brute.

 

Bub racing is coming out with a controler for the FI in january and it will have a o2 sensor they claim 3 hp gain and no lag on the bottom I happen to like the lag on the bottom because you have more control in the realy ruff stuff like the rubicon I have had mine there 3 times this year and it is fantastic in the rocks

 

I have owned more Honda products then any other. I don't believe they are more reliable <U>now</U> then any of the other manufactures. In the 80's when I started riding I think maybe they had an edge, but I feel all manufactures are close now. Having worked in manufacturing my professional career I can tell you all the inside stories of vendors, engineers, management, production employee screw ups. I can tell you about ISO programs, 6 Sigma, SPS ETC... These are all procedures that are to assist in customer satisfaction. I can tell you about Malcom Baldridge awards and bankrupt companies after they have won this award for quality and excellence.

I have worked for IBM and small medical companies that build equipment for NMR's. My current job is building CO2 lasers and the motion controls for laser marking equipment.

I never completed my MBA, but will soon. I know manufacturing well, I know engineering well, I know business well. I know of good companies with superior products that fail because of poor management. I know companies that sell crap, but succeed because of good management and marketing.
I know your friends at Honda and all other manufactures will design and build equipment only to the level that the consumer demands. Beyond that they are wasting money. Honda and all other manufactures really manufacture money, their products are only a financial vehicle whereby they obtain revenue. You can't eat, live in, pay for raw materials or make share holders happy by paying with ATV's.

My favorite example is that of Harley Davidson Motorcycles. (This will **** some people off, but here goes) HD does not sell motorcycles they sell an image. Freedom loving, rebel, bad a$$, etc.. pick your adjective. Their current bikes are ok, but can't compete with Jap bikes on any level. Power, performance and price all go to Jap and even British bikes, but why do we buy more HD bikes then any other bike? Their resale value is rock solid how can that be for an inferior product? It's all about Image. Honda has tapped this same vein with "quality" because they chose not to compete on performance. In off road racing they have the best desert racing team on an XR650 and John Natalie won the GNC atv series and Duhumel won on the 600RR street bike. That's as far as I can remember for this year. All of the other championship series went to Suz, Kaw and Yam. Not too impressive of a showing for the money Honda dumps into it's racing programs.

I also fly small planes and (Cessna's Piper's etc..). The engines in those plane are absolutely bullet proof. If they were water cooled in a car it would last forever. One of the reasons is because they are essentially detuned. A typical airplane engine is 360 ci and produces 160-180hp. Honda seems to employee this same strategy. They make long lasting under performing products. There are a few exceptions (CRF450, TRX450, CRF250) These vehicles suffer from the same maladies as all other high performance equipment. in fact the CRF250 has the highest maintenance cost of all the 250 bikes. Oh, and a Kawasaki won that series indoor and out door.

My point is simple Honda is no better and no worse then the other Manufactures. To claim anything beyond that is just a pissing contest (which I enjoy).

In God we trust all others must provide DATA!

 

to your plane comment, there are so many things that can go wrong on smaller planes (cessnas, cubs and the like) that having more weight (i.e. radiator, water, water pump) would make these planes sooo heavy and so problematic, it only makes sense to have them air cooled. with a 150 you are looking at a driver and passenger weight combined of about or around 350 lbs. Not a fair comparison.

I do however agree with you on your HD analysis. I have always wanted a fatboy since I was a kid and started going to the Sturgis rally when I was 16. Well this year the wife and I saved up and had enough to buy one... Went to the local (200 miles away) HD dealer and test drove a 06 fatboy efi..... Crap!!!! It was doggy, rough riding, and sounded like a honda. I went back to the salesman and told him I wasn't impressed.... he had me ride 2 other harley road king customs, first was doggy again, second had the big bore kit on it and a set of pipes that made it louder. Still now where near the power and ride of my old 99 suzuki Intruder 1400. When I went back and talked to the salesman he told me it was ONLY 1400 to do the big bore kit and another 500 or so for the pipes.
I'll keep my Intruder and change some things on it and will have no where near 17000 in to it and it will take any HD any day.....

I wanted to buy an american made motorcycle and always wanted a HD, too bad they are disappointing. Rode a victory, nice bike and nice sound, good HP.... just not a fan of their looks yet...

 

Yeah my uncle used to have a 2003 sportster 1200. That thing was a dog! My friends Virago 1200 would easy beat that thing in any test hands down. Now I drive around on a 2001 suzuki intruder 800vs. This is a nice bike. A little small but it would still beat the 1200 sportsters. Ever since this I will never ever buy a harley. They are junk in my eyes. Uncomfortable, slow, and loud. I'll stick to the jap bikes.

 

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I don't want this to digress into an aviation topic, but It was only a few years ago that they added fuel injection to small aircraft engines while the technology has been available for 30+ years to general automotive markets. If your going to throw down 14,000.00 dollars for just an engine (a small one at that) should there not be some technology built into that in addition to reliability. Think how many planes could have been saved form incompetent pilots not using carb heat when they should. My point is that by sticking to a very basic proven design and manufacturing process there are fewer chances for human or mechanical errors that could shorten the life of a product. The flip side of this is that by doing this you miss opportunities to introduce innovative and cutting edge concepts.

Honda makes good stuff it's just a little dated. They seem to wait and see where the market is headed then develop into it. The other manufactures drive the market. Even the automatic shifting Honda has developed was in response to the belt system introduced by Polaris, and perfected to a greater extent by Yamaha. The high revving four stroke was a product of KTM and Yamaha and copied by Honda. Honda has been making the 400EX since what 98 or something and the first change was in 2005 by adding new plastic and reverse. The same 400EX engine was introduced years earlier in the XR400 dirt bike and moved unchanged into the ATV. Do you think the 400EX would have a reverse if Suzuki and Yamaha didn't have one. Do you think there would be a TRX 450 if there was not a YFZ450 first. I can go on, but I've done this argument before in another post so I won't bore anyone with it again.

I own a 400EX and why would I buy this "dated" equipment? Because I wanted a reliable, fun, good performing quad that I did not have to wrench on every weekend. Is it better then a Z400, not even close. Does it keep my son happy yes.

I just really get sick of people pimping Honda with out supporting data. When Honda does try to compete on a performance bases they have many more quality issues just like everyone else. I am not bashing Honda I like them, but examine each product for what it is and not what it's rumored to be.

 

I will tell you why hondas are stroger than other makes and its not better materials it because they over build stress areas like main bearing sizes longer connecting rods (less rod angle) dual oil squirters for the wrist pin (yamaha zero) also perfect example is 250r that tranny can hold 2 to 3 times the power that it came from the factory with try that with any other bike CR 500 it has to be the best big bore ever built And yes hondas do compete in hp on a racing level

 

Tell me many how many racing series did Honda win last year? I count 2, Duhamel and Natalie. Kawasaki did better then that with 1/2 the budget! Honda is no better then any one else get over it or bring some data.

 

How many mx championships does suzuki have So my point is not who wins it is the FACT that honda makes quality products And yes I do ride a yfz ,KQ,BF,and a trx and any shop can tell you that hondas hold up the best thats why they have the following that they do its not because they have the fastest bike in every class And I will give ever other bike credit because they have clossed the gap on performance and quality in the last few years