ATV ACTION Shootout!!!!!!!!!!!
#51
01-14-2003, 09:42 PM
ATV ACTION Shootout!!!!!!!!!!!
DirtDiggler,
I definately Agree to Disagree and I wouldn't have it any other way.
The MAIN Point of my last post was the fact that these Shootouts ARE NOT FOR THOSE OF US WHO ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] They are a tool for someone that is looking to purchase a Quad. Lets give the average Smoe a little credit. The Quad buying public is well informed partly thanks to the Magazines and the Internet. People give the Print Media a little to much credit. If everyone agreed with what the Mags all say about the Raptor being too Narrow and Tippy, then why does it sell so good (Just one example, there are many).
You seem to be really hung up about measurments being wrong for the C-Dale in that One particular Shootout. I say to you, that their oppinion that the Quad was Tippy, Right or Wrong, had nothing to do with their misstating the measurments. The Measurment issue is a misstatement of facts, while the oppinion that it FELT Tippy is an oppinion from the Test Rider(s). To say that it is an orchestrated plot designed to guarantee the C-Dale's loss and somehow give the win to Suzuki just doesn't make sense. Just one quick note, I personally don't agree with the results of the C-Dale vs Z400 Shootout, but I was not there, and I was not involved in the formation of the artical, so it would be impossible for me to comment on whether or not the outcome was correct.
One question, How does the Magazine Benefit? The Magazines sole purpose is to sell Magazines. They do not Benefit from disinformation and conspiracies. What would they have to gain?
I started another Thread a while back titled "A SHOOTOUT TO SATISFY THE MASSES" hopeing to come up with some kind of consensous. What I discovered is that there are Too Many oppinions on what it would take to create a Fare and Honest Shootout. If all of US who are what I concider to be some of the most knowledgable persons in the area of ATV's, can't come to any kind of conclusions, How could any of the Magazines HOPE to Acheeve this Goal?
Xbox74,
Not trying to Attack you personally, but you seem to have an Aggenda. I have been reading your posts in several different Threads and your Obvious Bias towards the Z400 is doing you a Disservice. You choose to distort and exaggerate upon a few problems that particular individuals have had with their Z's to the point that it has become almost unworthy to read your posts. We know your oppinion of the Z. Continuing to post the same rhetoric over and over is not convincing anyone. There is NO QUAD out there that is free from their share of troubles and isolated incidents, PERIOD, not even your Raptor.
I definately Agree to Disagree and I wouldn't have it any other way.
The MAIN Point of my last post was the fact that these Shootouts ARE NOT FOR THOSE OF US WHO ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] They are a tool for someone that is looking to purchase a Quad. Lets give the average Smoe a little credit. The Quad buying public is well informed partly thanks to the Magazines and the Internet. People give the Print Media a little to much credit. If everyone agreed with what the Mags all say about the Raptor being too Narrow and Tippy, then why does it sell so good (Just one example, there are many).
You seem to be really hung up about measurments being wrong for the C-Dale in that One particular Shootout. I say to you, that their oppinion that the Quad was Tippy, Right or Wrong, had nothing to do with their misstating the measurments. The Measurment issue is a misstatement of facts, while the oppinion that it FELT Tippy is an oppinion from the Test Rider(s). To say that it is an orchestrated plot designed to guarantee the C-Dale's loss and somehow give the win to Suzuki just doesn't make sense. Just one quick note, I personally don't agree with the results of the C-Dale vs Z400 Shootout, but I was not there, and I was not involved in the formation of the artical, so it would be impossible for me to comment on whether or not the outcome was correct.
One question, How does the Magazine Benefit? The Magazines sole purpose is to sell Magazines. They do not Benefit from disinformation and conspiracies. What would they have to gain?
I started another Thread a while back titled "A SHOOTOUT TO SATISFY THE MASSES" hopeing to come up with some kind of consensous. What I discovered is that there are Too Many oppinions on what it would take to create a Fare and Honest Shootout. If all of US who are what I concider to be some of the most knowledgable persons in the area of ATV's, can't come to any kind of conclusions, How could any of the Magazines HOPE to Acheeve this Goal?
Xbox74,
Not trying to Attack you personally, but you seem to have an Aggenda. I have been reading your posts in several different Threads and your Obvious Bias towards the Z400 is doing you a Disservice. You choose to distort and exaggerate upon a few problems that particular individuals have had with their Z's to the point that it has become almost unworthy to read your posts. We know your oppinion of the Z. Continuing to post the same rhetoric over and over is not convincing anyone. There is NO QUAD out there that is free from their share of troubles and isolated incidents, PERIOD, not even your Raptor.
#52
01-14-2003, 09:46 PM
#53
01-14-2003, 09:57 PM
ATV ACTION Shootout!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by: RPM
DirtDiggler,
I definately Agree to Disagree and I wouldn't have it any other way.
The MAIN Point of my last post was the fact that these Shootouts ARE NOT FOR THOSE OF US WHO ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] They are a tool for someone that is looking to purchase a Quad. Lets give the average Smoe a little credit. The Quad buying public is well informed partly thanks to the Magazines and the Internet. People give the Print Media a little to much credit. If everyone agreed with what the Mags all say about the Raptor being too Narrow and Tippy, then why does it sell so good (Just one example, there are many).
You seem to be really hung up about measurments being wrong for the C-Dale in that One particular Shootout. I say to you, that their oppinion that the Quad was Tippy, Right or Wrong, had nothing to do with their misstating the measurments. The Measurment issue is a misstatement of facts, while the oppinion that it FELT Tippy is an oppinion from the Test Rider(s). To say that it is an orchestrated plot designed to guarantee the C-Dale's loss and somehow give the win to Suzuki just doesn't make sense. Just one quick note, I personally don't agree with the results of the C-Dale vs Z400 Shootout, but I was not there, and I was not involved in the formation of the artical, so it would be impossible for me to comment on whether or not the outcome was correct.
One question, How does the Magazine Benefit? The Magazines sole purpose is to sell Magazines. They do not Benefit from disinformation and conspiracies. What would they have to gain?
I started another Thread a while back titled "A SHOOTOUT TO SATISFY THE MASSES" hopeing to come up with some kind of consensous. What I discovered is that there are Too Many oppinions on what it would take to create a Fare and Honest Shootout. If all of US who are what I concider to be some of the most knowledgable persons in the area of ATV's, can't come to any kind of conclusions, How could any of the Magazines HOPE to Acheeve this Goal?
Xbox74,
Not trying to Attack you personally, but you seem to have an Aggenda. I have been reading your posts in several different Threads and your Obvious Bias towards the Z400 is doing you a Disservice. You choose to distort and exaggerate upon a few problems that particular individuals have had with their Z's to the point that it has become almost unworthy to read your posts. We know your oppinion of the Z. Continuing to post the same rhetoric over and over is not covincing anyone. There is NO QUAD out there that is free from their share of troubles and isolated incidents, PERIOD, not even your Raptor.
DirtDiggler,
I definately Agree to Disagree and I wouldn't have it any other way.
The MAIN Point of my last post was the fact that these Shootouts ARE NOT FOR THOSE OF US WHO ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] They are a tool for someone that is looking to purchase a Quad. Lets give the average Smoe a little credit. The Quad buying public is well informed partly thanks to the Magazines and the Internet. People give the Print Media a little to much credit. If everyone agreed with what the Mags all say about the Raptor being too Narrow and Tippy, then why does it sell so good (Just one example, there are many).
You seem to be really hung up about measurments being wrong for the C-Dale in that One particular Shootout. I say to you, that their oppinion that the Quad was Tippy, Right or Wrong, had nothing to do with their misstating the measurments. The Measurment issue is a misstatement of facts, while the oppinion that it FELT Tippy is an oppinion from the Test Rider(s). To say that it is an orchestrated plot designed to guarantee the C-Dale's loss and somehow give the win to Suzuki just doesn't make sense. Just one quick note, I personally don't agree with the results of the C-Dale vs Z400 Shootout, but I was not there, and I was not involved in the formation of the artical, so it would be impossible for me to comment on whether or not the outcome was correct.
One question, How does the Magazine Benefit? The Magazines sole purpose is to sell Magazines. They do not Benefit from disinformation and conspiracies. What would they have to gain?
I started another Thread a while back titled "A SHOOTOUT TO SATISFY THE MASSES" hopeing to come up with some kind of consensous. What I discovered is that there are Too Many oppinions on what it would take to create a Fare and Honest Shootout. If all of US who are what I concider to be some of the most knowledgable persons in the area of ATV's, can't come to any kind of conclusions, How could any of the Magazines HOPE to Acheeve this Goal?
Xbox74,
Not trying to Attack you personally, but you seem to have an Aggenda. I have been reading your posts in several different Threads and your Obvious Bias towards the Z400 is doing you a Disservice. You choose to distort and exaggerate upon a few problems that particular individuals have had with their Z's to the point that it has become almost unworthy to read your posts. We know your oppinion of the Z. Continuing to post the same rhetoric over and over is not covincing anyone. There is NO QUAD out there that is free from their share of troubles and isolated incidents, PERIOD, not even your Raptor.
i spend my money on the mags not to read the B S about how that P O S holds together it does not hold together it breaks in half ..PERIOD NOT IN ONE MAG HAVE THEY SAID THE Z LOST THE SHOOT OUT BECAUSE THE FRAME BROKE IN HALF OR EVEN MENTIONED IT !!! IF SUZUKI IS GOING TO SELL CRAP AT LEAST TELL THE CONSUMER THAT THE FRAME WILL NOT LAST THE FIRST YEAR OR MONTH EVEN
#54
01-14-2003, 09:58 PM
#55
01-14-2003, 10:02 PM
ATV ACTION Shootout!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought you "Shoot Out to satisfy the masses" thread was excellent and had a lot of great ideas in it. Many of them covered similar territory and could be consolidate into one idea. If even half of the ideas everyone came up with where put into practice we would be better off as readers.
The Raptor's short comings don't detract from sales for a few reasons.
1. Massive engine potential.
2. It is one of the coolest looking quads on the planet.
3. If you read a lot of Raptor riders signatures they fix this short coming
They didn't pull out the race quad statement until the end when they had to justify their actions.
I'm hung up on the Dale measurement thing because it doesn't get much more blatant then that.
The idea that the moto being tippy could be an opinion is absurd. What was the test rider standing up on the seat riding it like a skate board? Come on man you've got to see these things or why would these threads exist in the first place.
Mags make more money off all their advertisers than they'll ever make off subscriptions. Most magazine editors say they don't even count mags bought off the counter because it's way too inconsistent.
The Raptor's short comings don't detract from sales for a few reasons.
1. Massive engine potential.
2. It is one of the coolest looking quads on the planet.
3. If you read a lot of Raptor riders signatures they fix this short coming
They didn't pull out the race quad statement until the end when they had to justify their actions.
I'm hung up on the Dale measurement thing because it doesn't get much more blatant then that.
The idea that the moto being tippy could be an opinion is absurd. What was the test rider standing up on the seat riding it like a skate board? Come on man you've got to see these things or why would these threads exist in the first place.
Mags make more money off all their advertisers than they'll ever make off subscriptions. Most magazine editors say they don't even count mags bought off the counter because it's way too inconsistent.
#56
01-14-2003, 10:10 PM
ATV ACTION Shootout!!!!!!!!!!!
Besides if their going to make all these niche' shootouts to justify their actions is the Z really "high performance"? It's a sport quad wouldn't a race quad be high performance? I mean to be high performance it has to be a high level of performance above everything else so what are we comparing them to 90s, Utes? You would certainly have to say that a Dale or a Pred is higher performance than a Z under that criteria. Notice also that when one of the big 4 come out with a steel framed quad with all the old tech they get praised for it but when companies do something totaly new for quads like aluminum frame, EFI, anti-nose dive tech, anti-bump steer tech they get dumped on. What is ground breaking that Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, or Kawasaki have done? Maybe the new KFX700 will be. These bikes are inovative and higher performance and they still get the shaft.
#57
01-14-2003, 10:12 PM
#58
01-14-2003, 10:23 PM
ATV ACTION Shootout!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by: DirtDiggler
I agree they are just words in a mag but that's what where discussing in this thread and if everyone lightened up what we talk about? We could just blindly praise eachother's rides.
I agree they are just words in a mag but that's what where discussing in this thread and if everyone lightened up what we talk about? We could just blindly praise eachother's rides.
#59
01-14-2003, 10:44 PM
ATV ACTION Shootout!!!!!!!!!!!
Are a Porsche 959 and a BMW Z4 both Performance Sports cars, even though the BMW can't compete with the 959? Sure it is, because it is what each of the Companies have presented and marketed their car as. Could the BMW defeat the 959 in any aspect of performance? Probably not, but that doesn't "Not" make it a Performance oriented Sports Car.
The ideas in the "A SHOOTOUT TO SATISFY THE MASSES" were good and in a lot of cases well thought out. But there was anything but a concensus. In fact if you were to peice together several of the better ideas, you would end up with a Shootout that would most likely contain 5 to 6 different classifications of Performance Sport Quads and it would undoubtedly take the better part of 4 to 5 months to complete. On top of that with the separation of Sport Quads by Engine cc's, The C-Dales wouldn't compete against the big hitters like the DS and the Raptor and you wouldn't be able to pick an overall winner.
Xbox74,
The Magazines don't say that because there is NO Truth to it. Any kind Frame Breakage are isolated incidents, or results of human error or abuse. I read a post a few weeks back about a broken frame on a Z. The person who left the post was upest about the damage to his frame as a result of Runnung into a Tree. Now if Suzuki could have seen that one comming and didn't do anything to prevent it, then they ought to be Assamed of themselvs.
You sound like a broken record and you are playing to an audiance of 1.
The ideas in the "A SHOOTOUT TO SATISFY THE MASSES" were good and in a lot of cases well thought out. But there was anything but a concensus. In fact if you were to peice together several of the better ideas, you would end up with a Shootout that would most likely contain 5 to 6 different classifications of Performance Sport Quads and it would undoubtedly take the better part of 4 to 5 months to complete. On top of that with the separation of Sport Quads by Engine cc's, The C-Dales wouldn't compete against the big hitters like the DS and the Raptor and you wouldn't be able to pick an overall winner.
Xbox74,
The Magazines don't say that because there is NO Truth to it. Any kind Frame Breakage are isolated incidents, or results of human error or abuse. I read a post a few weeks back about a broken frame on a Z. The person who left the post was upest about the damage to his frame as a result of Runnung into a Tree. Now if Suzuki could have seen that one comming and didn't do anything to prevent it, then they ought to be Assamed of themselvs.
You sound like a broken record and you are playing to an audiance of 1.
#60
01-14-2003, 11:07 PM
ATV ACTION Shootout!!!!!!!!!!!
But couldn't the DS650, Raptor, and soon to be Kawi700 compete against eachother?
Then you've got the 400ex, Z400/KFX400, Dale and possibly the Pred since the weight factor would make up for some of the cc's.
I think overall that if you looked at the 7 or 8 top things that everyone agreed on in the "Shootout" thread you could make a pretty fair shootout. I still think you could shootout all the quads at once if you wanted to just subject them to the same criteria. Sure the raptor wont handle as well on an mx track as the Z or EX but it will out drag them both. As long as the ground rules are layed down and then stuck with that's my main concern here. I'm not saying the mags make no sense I'm just saying there is definitely somethin wrong here with the way things are. We've had enough people on both sides of the fence in all these threads to at least show that there is a problem with the way it is right now.
IMHO if you have say 7 areas of judgement and you judge all the quads by it and the highest average placing bike wins there really isn't much to
b!tch about. It seems like right now it's kind of like sports were the stars get the calls and when the average player says "Not Fair" their told to quit complaining and play. Right now it's the other companies that are trying to up the performance bar with new technology and it seems like they're getting a bum rap.
BTW, RPM and RaptorRider660R don't take any of this personaly it's just something I feel strongly about as do you. I'm not angry or harboring any animosity towards anyone in this thread whether they agree or disagree with me.
Then you've got the 400ex, Z400/KFX400, Dale and possibly the Pred since the weight factor would make up for some of the cc's.
I think overall that if you looked at the 7 or 8 top things that everyone agreed on in the "Shootout" thread you could make a pretty fair shootout. I still think you could shootout all the quads at once if you wanted to just subject them to the same criteria. Sure the raptor wont handle as well on an mx track as the Z or EX but it will out drag them both. As long as the ground rules are layed down and then stuck with that's my main concern here. I'm not saying the mags make no sense I'm just saying there is definitely somethin wrong here with the way things are. We've had enough people on both sides of the fence in all these threads to at least show that there is a problem with the way it is right now.
IMHO if you have say 7 areas of judgement and you judge all the quads by it and the highest average placing bike wins there really isn't much to
b!tch about. It seems like right now it's kind of like sports were the stars get the calls and when the average player says "Not Fair" their told to quit complaining and play. Right now it's the other companies that are trying to up the performance bar with new technology and it seems like they're getting a bum rap.
BTW, RPM and RaptorRider660R don't take any of this personaly it's just something I feel strongly about as do you. I'm not angry or harboring any animosity towards anyone in this thread whether they agree or disagree with me.