I served in the military and I now work for the Gov't. Just because I don't agree with illegal searches and seizures does not give anyone the right to question my dedication to our country. The people that work in senior levels of Gov't are type A+ with a strong desire for power and control. The founding fathers knew that what type of personalities gravitated toward the "ruling class" so they designed safeguards. The 4th amendment is a safeguard against people in Gov't, thinking they know best, trading your privacy for security. Post 9-11, a whole bunch of our leaders thought it prudent to trade a little privacy for security. The backlash is growing daily, watch the Patriot Act flame out before it gets any real teeth. Same arguments were used in the war on drugs and we all know that "no knock" warrants and personal property seizures had zero effect on illegal drugs in the US.

I suspect Blackballed is some sort of campus security (mall ninja) and has an inner desire to wear black leather boots and kick in doors. He sure gets a kick out of setting us all straight, he should be put in a position of authority immediately. Remember Doofy in Scary Movie?:-)

 

Ubetrun, mall ninja....havent heard that in awhile.... you an arfcomer too? Ahh the memories.... Personally I wouldnt sweat the investigation, it seems silly and they're looking for a needle in a haystack. Probably improper for them to have such a wide scope. I havent been a practicing attorney for awhile, in fact I'm not now nor have I ever been a lawyer... but I'd say even if they did catch their crook it would be a stretch not to have the evidence supressed due to the circumstances and large scope of the search.

 

If some crazy SOB killed me with a Mak pistol that had an aftermarket barrel would the FBI do a nationwide search to find the person that did it? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, so my next question is....Why is this guys life so much more important than mine or yours?

 

Treeshot- He was a "leader"[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img] and not a "consumer" like everyone else. Since when did the government begin referring to the citizens as consumers? It seems to be a name that is catching on more and more. What did they instruct us to do right after 911? Consume. (Mainly duct tape) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

 

i dont know why you think all people need the FBI to protect them from terrorist?

i exercise my right to have firearms and dont put mine or my familys life in the hands of the police or FBI!

seriously thou... it takes the police way to long to reply to a call some times. they cant be everywhere at once. you must protect yourself and not put your lives in the hands of others!

 

Ubetrun,
<<Some anti-gun federal prosecutor was killed in Washington state with a Makarov pistol. Ballistics determined that the killer's pistol had an aftermarket barrel made by Federal Arms Corp. The FBI is trying to round up EVERY SINGLE Makarov with an aftermarket barrel. They got Federal Arms Corp's customer list and my name popped up for buying a Makarov barrel. When they showed up to confiscate and test fire my pistol, I told them to pound sand. When they showed up again with a Grand Jury subpeona for my pistol barrel, I gave it to them in pieces:-) Even though I'm in VA, I made the Washington state papers and Gun Test magazine's write up of the FBI's fishing expedition. >>

Good for you, I'd have done the same thing.. it is a big fishing trip with citizens rights being trampled on. no burden of proof, no protection to unreasonable searches and seizures, besides, you were correct complying with the courts request, you gave them what they wanted, just not the way they expected to get it.

<<This is not how the 4th Amendment is supposed to work!! If you are not a suspect, your personal property is supposed to be safe from search and seizure.>>

EXACTLY!! the guys that drew up the constitution were pretty sharp, while Hamilton wanted a lot of power in government, Franklin & Jefferson wanted to INSURE the citizens rights against abuse of power. I think that they got it right the first time..

<<Constitutional rights are a muscle, they must be exercised or they will atrophy. Fishing expeditions are not authorized by the 4th. I resisted the only way I could afford, if I had unlimited funds they would not have gotten my pistol or barrel. >>

I agree wholeheartedly..unfortunately, some don't see it that way. Our freedoms come with a price.. and are guranteed for CITIZENS..by the constitution..what I don't get is a lot of folks think that the constitution applies to everyone in the borders of the US.. I don't think so.. I believe that if you are not a citizen, then you cannot have the benefit of the constitution. so folks on visas, tourists, guests, illegal aliens, or just plain others, wether they are welcome or not, do NOT have these rights guaranteed to them..I'm O.K. WITH THAT....


RPM,
<<Government intrusion is always unwanted if you are the one being affected by it. But where do you draw the line? When do your rights outweigh the rights of others?>>

when the rights guaranteed me by the constitution are violated. this is the document on which we were founded. while not perfect, it insures the freedom of the citizens from invasive government. without it, we would soon be a police state, how ever well meaning it would be..

<<For me it is when your rights Endanger others. If you have some Crazy guy, living in a 2 room house with 15 cats and 10 dogs, wearing a tin foil hat to keep the governments "Top Secret" Mind-Meld Machine from picking his brain and watching him through his TV that isn't even plugged in, this is the guy that I personally don't want to have a room full of Assault Riffles. Mind you, he is still an American, guarantied his rights under the Constitution, but somewhere along the way, someone has to step in and determine if this situation is safe. Or do we wait until he walks into a Wal-Mart and Kills 20 people? What about the rights of his Victims?>>

gee, I gotta start BACKWARDS on this one... rights of victims (implies someone died)...wait untill he walks into walmart & kills 20 people (implies that we are profiling him for a certain type of behavior before he does it, and are therefore somewhat charging him of a crime BEFORE the commission of the crime..(remember there is a presumption of innocence before proof of guilt in court room trials) ) someone has to step in and determine if the situation is safe....(in a police state, they would already be there...but the weirdo is not who I fear, it is the lawyer taking away my rights..) this is the guy I don't want having assualt rifles (well to tell you the truth, I'm not crazy about the idea myself, but it is his RIGHT..) some crazy guy 2 room house, 15 cats & dogs, tin foil hat, paranoid about the government (well we all have problems..but MOST of us won't endanger others..so his prozac ran out)

I say YES, we wait untill he injures someone, or we have compelling evidence that found out in the commision of another crime, through legal means, that he intends to nijure someone/thing. a presumption of guilt isn't jack to base going after him for, and trampling on the constitution while doing it. if he is not a US citizen, well I don't have a problem with picking him up for questioning. I Don't want MY rights violated in this instance..

<<On the other hand, you have John Q College Student who isn't bothering anyone but is doing his term paper on Nuclear Energy. One day he decides to access some information on the internet and the next thing he knows, he is awoken in the middle of the night by the FBI and a full Swat Team, drug out into public in his underwear and makes the cover of the National New Papers "BOMB MAKING TERRORIST DISCOVERED AT LOCAL COLLEGE".>>

looks like the same example as the weirdo to me, except with out profiling going on, no crime has been comitted, no victims, ( just make sure that it was ONE student working alone, so conspiricy and treason were not put in play....)

I guess what I'm trying to say is PRESUMPTION of GUILT is against the constitution and the courts, in ALL cases.

 

I would give you my 2 cents on the government and the FBI, but i do not need them knocking on my door. It looks to me like our "free" world is getting smaller by the day. And more costly due to new "fees" assessed on everything you or i want to do.

 

The FBI really protected those people that were shot in the Virginia/ Maryland area didn't they? They couldn't even protect one of their own. (woman that was shot at Home Depot) Citizens are basically the ones that finally found the shooters. I wonder if that trucker ever got any of the reward money?

 

Surveyor,

Although I respect your opinions, I have to disagree with your logic. Someone shouldn't have to Die before something is done to stop a potential threat to society. Each and every day, both private Citizens as well as Law Enforcement Agencies take actions that prevent crimes from happening. We Don't have the Right to Endanger someone else's Life, that is Not guarantied us by the Constitution. The Constitution is there to protect the Criminal, the Innocent and the Victim.

In following your interpretation of my previous post, you are giving more rights to the Wacko with tin foil on his head, than you are to the College Student that is simply trying to get an education and better himself.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't have the answers. I don't know how to find a balance between the rights of the Individual and the rights of the Masses. But I can tell you this much, I am NOT willing to sacrifice any one of my Friends, Family or Loved Ones to protect the rights of a Wacko who means them harm. If you are then that is something that you will have to deal with. I hope you never have too.

I am the son of a career Law Enforcement Officer (Retired) and growing up, I couldn't have been more proud of what my Father did each and every day to protect the community. Now I also realize that times have changed. The days of the Barney Fife type of Policemen are over. I also know that it is their day to day sacrifices that give me the opportunity to live my life with considerably less fear of harm coming to me and my Loved Ones. For that I Appreciate them and Thank them. The old saying is true, "No one wants a Cop around until they need one and then they can't get there fast enough.". Taking the law into your own hands can sometimes backfire on you, making you the Criminal, and the Criminal the Victim.

Let me go on the record as stating that I do not believe that what happened to UBETRUN was justified and none of my comments are intended to try and change anyone's opinions on what is a very difficult issue.

 

As drunk as I was when I started this post...I couldn't have imagined the stupid replies it would recieve...
Blackballed...question things deeper and have some forethought...you are a lemming...beware of the cliff in front of you