770 POWROLL KIT?
Apr 29, 2002 | 01:52 AM
#91
Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,121
Likes: 0
WOW, I thought you Raptor guys only agued with us DS guys this much, not each other. J/K
I think it's great that major players in the ATV engine building field take the time to read and post. As a minor/mid level builder, I've been watching and learning what consumers want for about a year now, in these forums. I agree with some of what the other builders say, and dis-agree with other things. Let me say this though, I don't have enough info on any of you to speak poorly. I respect the fact that you each have built your businesses to the level they are at, and hope to become a level competator some day. I just read the entire thread for the first time, and wanted to make a few comments to some of the builders.
Sparks, You guys were at 4 Stroke Wars with great running bikes, and won. No one can take that away. Congradulations! What ever was done to the bikes, or what ever fuel was used, is no matter. There were no rules, so there was no cheating.
I understand your not wanting to reveal cam specs, but see a consumers problem with that. I have published my cam specs from day one, and the next thing I know, others are producing cams with almost identical specs. These cams were not available befor I brough the #'s to the american public, but once they were, the copies came out.
I personally do believe in dyno #'s, but then I have to. I don't have the reputation you have, so it's the only way to show people what I can do. I'm sorry that Dirt Wheels didn't publish my dyno charts because the would have really shon my advantage over the only competetor I had.
Trinity, I've heard lots of good things about Harry's shop. The one example of his dyno compaired to the one I use was very close. The stories of his dyno being generous don't hold water with me. One bike that was done on both his dyno and mine were within 1HP of each other. Harry has built a good sized business, and that lets him do things that others of us can't. He can afford to hire people to answer the phone. He can afford to pay good people to do some work for him. He can buy things in enough volume to get better prices. That's great for him and his customers, but it doesn't mean that other shops should be over looked. I'm actually bothered to see that he is now coming in my realm of business, as the pie was small in the first place. Now that Trinity is taking a part of the little pie I shared with my one other competator, who knows if I'll even survive.
FST, I agree with the policy of only answering the phone at certain times. I do all of my engine work myself as well, and took a while to realize that I needed to concentrate on motors when I'm doing it, instead of stoping to answer the phone. It's inconvienient for the customers, but important to ensure quality work. When it's your motor I'm working on, you'll be happy that I'm completely devoted to doing it right, just as he is.
I also agree that making ourselves[engine builders] available in these forums opens up a big can of worms. Some of you will recall a posted battle between a "royal" member of this forum and I. It was a pain, but I felt a need to answer comments. A challenge was offered to me as well, and I just couldn't take it. Then it got personal enough that I wouldn't take it if I could. To this day, I have no intrest in dealing with a person like that, but look forward to meeting other fellow enthusiast from the forum. It did show me why other manufacturers and builders just keep quiet.
I look forward to the next 4 Stroke Wars. I hope that all builders are represented. Although dyno #'s would be great to compair, the races will speak for all. Would any other builders like to talk about any type of rules for next MLK weekend? If it's an all out, run anything event, I'm hoping I don't get out $'ed. Some of my customers have better motors than I can afford to build for myself.
I think it's great that major players in the ATV engine building field take the time to read and post. As a minor/mid level builder, I've been watching and learning what consumers want for about a year now, in these forums. I agree with some of what the other builders say, and dis-agree with other things. Let me say this though, I don't have enough info on any of you to speak poorly. I respect the fact that you each have built your businesses to the level they are at, and hope to become a level competator some day. I just read the entire thread for the first time, and wanted to make a few comments to some of the builders.
Sparks, You guys were at 4 Stroke Wars with great running bikes, and won. No one can take that away. Congradulations! What ever was done to the bikes, or what ever fuel was used, is no matter. There were no rules, so there was no cheating.
I understand your not wanting to reveal cam specs, but see a consumers problem with that. I have published my cam specs from day one, and the next thing I know, others are producing cams with almost identical specs. These cams were not available befor I brough the #'s to the american public, but once they were, the copies came out.
I personally do believe in dyno #'s, but then I have to. I don't have the reputation you have, so it's the only way to show people what I can do. I'm sorry that Dirt Wheels didn't publish my dyno charts because the would have really shon my advantage over the only competetor I had.
Trinity, I've heard lots of good things about Harry's shop. The one example of his dyno compaired to the one I use was very close. The stories of his dyno being generous don't hold water with me. One bike that was done on both his dyno and mine were within 1HP of each other. Harry has built a good sized business, and that lets him do things that others of us can't. He can afford to hire people to answer the phone. He can afford to pay good people to do some work for him. He can buy things in enough volume to get better prices. That's great for him and his customers, but it doesn't mean that other shops should be over looked. I'm actually bothered to see that he is now coming in my realm of business, as the pie was small in the first place. Now that Trinity is taking a part of the little pie I shared with my one other competator, who knows if I'll even survive.
FST, I agree with the policy of only answering the phone at certain times. I do all of my engine work myself as well, and took a while to realize that I needed to concentrate on motors when I'm doing it, instead of stoping to answer the phone. It's inconvienient for the customers, but important to ensure quality work. When it's your motor I'm working on, you'll be happy that I'm completely devoted to doing it right, just as he is.
I also agree that making ourselves[engine builders] available in these forums opens up a big can of worms. Some of you will recall a posted battle between a "royal" member of this forum and I. It was a pain, but I felt a need to answer comments. A challenge was offered to me as well, and I just couldn't take it. Then it got personal enough that I wouldn't take it if I could. To this day, I have no intrest in dealing with a person like that, but look forward to meeting other fellow enthusiast from the forum. It did show me why other manufacturers and builders just keep quiet.
I look forward to the next 4 Stroke Wars. I hope that all builders are represented. Although dyno #'s would be great to compair, the races will speak for all. Would any other builders like to talk about any type of rules for next MLK weekend? If it's an all out, run anything event, I'm hoping I don't get out $'ed. Some of my customers have better motors than I can afford to build for myself.
Apr 29, 2002 | 02:25 AM
#92
Pro Rider
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
Knutz,
Glad to see ya back! Good post except --- your comment about Sparks and the no rules rule. I agree, he could have appeared with 100% Nitro in the tank. The problem is that he now claims that he ran gas from an old Chevy parked down the street (not really but you get the picture). Now, we have issues with the comments about how "near stock" the engine was described. I am familiar with many 686 aka 690 motors. I know the output and 15 bikes is very VERY hard to swallow. Perhaps it is true -- he has some special green thumb or something. All I wanted to see is THAT Raptor pull a run on a dyno with confirmed fuel. The lack of willingness to appear for the free advertisement tells the story. Lyle is a good guy who loves hill racing. I just think this 690 event got away from him.
Ward660R,
Torque plates are machined pieces of metal that you bolt to the cylinder before boring and honing. The purpose of the plate is to mimic the torque of an installed cylinder head. That way, when you install the head on the motor the cylinder (in theory) will not distort from your perfect hone. This is fairly critical to sealing rings but don't look for it in many shops for the Raptor.
Rings -- a major power player. You bet. There are many many ring combos available. The thickness and weight of the ring can dictate the maximum rpm before the ring floats from the cylinder wall. The height of the top ring is also critical. In a N20 motor you want the top ring low. Rings transfer heat as well as seal the combustion gases.
Other applications may require a different ring height/material or tension. Again, N20 (as an example) would require a tool steel ring to help prevent cracking and other problems. End gap clearance is another major player. Too much and you have problems. Not enough and the ring will bind and rob power. Depending on the setup, I might select a 1.2mm top ring in tool steel that is low tension but I would gas port the piston. (Gas porting is a subject of substantial debate.)
The second ring might also be fairly low tension but would work with an oil collector groove just above it to prevent ring float from trapped oil.
Oil rings might be low tension as well but that depends on the type of oil system and the application. Dry sumps such as the Raptor can get away with fairly weak oil control rings while an oil bath engine would need strong oil rings.
Cylinder finish is also a factor in performance. You mentioned Nikasil. I try to stay away from it. I much prefer Chrome for many reasons.
You can take a big block chevy and make some dyno runs with one set of rings and then see 20 or more hp gain with a different ring combo.
This is about as basic as I can get on the subject. I have spent many years working with rings and pistons. It is impossible to sit here and give you what you want to know for a specific app. You now know enough to be dangerous. lol
Glad to see ya back! Good post except --- your comment about Sparks and the no rules rule. I agree, he could have appeared with 100% Nitro in the tank. The problem is that he now claims that he ran gas from an old Chevy parked down the street (not really but you get the picture). Now, we have issues with the comments about how "near stock" the engine was described. I am familiar with many 686 aka 690 motors. I know the output and 15 bikes is very VERY hard to swallow. Perhaps it is true -- he has some special green thumb or something. All I wanted to see is THAT Raptor pull a run on a dyno with confirmed fuel. The lack of willingness to appear for the free advertisement tells the story. Lyle is a good guy who loves hill racing. I just think this 690 event got away from him.
Ward660R,
Torque plates are machined pieces of metal that you bolt to the cylinder before boring and honing. The purpose of the plate is to mimic the torque of an installed cylinder head. That way, when you install the head on the motor the cylinder (in theory) will not distort from your perfect hone. This is fairly critical to sealing rings but don't look for it in many shops for the Raptor.
Rings -- a major power player. You bet. There are many many ring combos available. The thickness and weight of the ring can dictate the maximum rpm before the ring floats from the cylinder wall. The height of the top ring is also critical. In a N20 motor you want the top ring low. Rings transfer heat as well as seal the combustion gases.
Other applications may require a different ring height/material or tension. Again, N20 (as an example) would require a tool steel ring to help prevent cracking and other problems. End gap clearance is another major player. Too much and you have problems. Not enough and the ring will bind and rob power. Depending on the setup, I might select a 1.2mm top ring in tool steel that is low tension but I would gas port the piston. (Gas porting is a subject of substantial debate.)
The second ring might also be fairly low tension but would work with an oil collector groove just above it to prevent ring float from trapped oil.
Oil rings might be low tension as well but that depends on the type of oil system and the application. Dry sumps such as the Raptor can get away with fairly weak oil control rings while an oil bath engine would need strong oil rings.
Cylinder finish is also a factor in performance. You mentioned Nikasil. I try to stay away from it. I much prefer Chrome for many reasons.
You can take a big block chevy and make some dyno runs with one set of rings and then see 20 or more hp gain with a different ring combo.
This is about as basic as I can get on the subject. I have spent many years working with rings and pistons. It is impossible to sit here and give you what you want to know for a specific app. You now know enough to be dangerous. lol
Apr 29, 2002 | 02:11 PM
#94
Range Rover
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
i also have been following the forums regarding the Trinity, powroll, sparks motor building topics and discussions. As a new raptor owner with sparks 690 kit, and a new england atv racer, i will give you my opinion of my experience with sparks and his motor work. I had to wait a long time for my motor...but i knew that before i sent my motor from connecticut to california. Scott at Sparks was honest with me about the turn around time. Sparks only had my motor for 4 weeks, two weeks of that time was because Sparks was 2 weeks behind schedule...but i knew about that even before UPS picked up my motor. Thursday morning 4/25/02 UPS delivered my motor to me...after two days of hard work, i was able to start my motor. Yes, the FCR carbs where tight...the throttle linkage did hit the frame, but a few strokes with a metal file and everything is perfect. When i started my motor, i was totally amazed...it started very easily, idled smoothly. I was impressed...Saturday morning, i take my sparks 690 raptor, to my local sand pit where i train sometimes and begin to break the motor in....the sound of the motor with 12.5:1 compression and Sparks x-6 pipe is great...sort of like a hopped up Harley...the pull of this motor is truely heavenly...from very low rpm's this motor pulls hard and true..."i after about 3 hours of easy riding...i decided it was time to get on it....really feel what this motor can do....so i pick a straight line across the large section of my sandpit loaded with whoops 1' to 3' in height...i got the raptor ready for a practice gate drop....5,4,3,2,1...pretend gate drops...let the hydraulic clutch fly and start off....wheel spin was controlled by my careful application of the throttle....shifted 1,2,and 3....mx holeshots start to hook up....raptor excellerating at amazing speed....tires now are totally hooked by...whoops are flying under me as,,,smooth ride throught the whoops thanks to the roll design / rpm / custom axis suspension setup....shift into 4th with full throttle...the exhaust note is perfect for the name "raptor"....holl ****....the front end is pointing toward the sky...had to bake off....my cahones arent that big....i couldnt believe it...wide open shifting into 4th gear and the front end is in the air, at about a 45 degree angle....also keep in mind i have +2 swingarm....sparks motor rocks....point...i did the same run several times just to see if the front end would come up...and it did....ok now for the less exciting stuff....once i got bored with the sand pit...if that could ever happen...i took to the tight new england style trails.....rocks/trees/gulls and streams is what we in new england have for riding areas....the sparks motor was totally controllable...i could purr it along in 2 and 3 gear all day...now problems with jumpy throttle...short shift it excessively...the motor just pulled it....climbing hills...i will never be concerned about power again...not that i did with the stock motor...but now....give me pikes peak and i am climbing it...hehe....ok...as for the race test....Raced Southwick yesterday in the pouring rain...southwick is all heavy sand and when it rains...it is hell...well i drove the track like the raptor had an automatic trans....shifting from 4th gear down to 3rd only in the corners....this motor pulled threw the wet heavy sand like a champ...i am so impressed with Sparks motor and how it runs...i would recommend his services to anyone...his motor got me a 4 th place finish in the open b (ameteur) class....i am never happy with my 690 kit.....remember this...i have been riding since 1986...i have owned other quads....have ridden 250r's, lt250r's, lt500's, and modded banshee's and many other quads from mini's to full blow utilities....my raptor with Sparks 690 kit is the fastest quad i have personally riden....
"this is just my opinion" all information written about is for entertainment purposes only....i do have the 690 kit...and i am very proud of my raptor...when i get the wife to update our webpage i will post the pics of it...ONE more thing...for those of you who know who Mike Walsh of Walsh racecraft is...he lives in connecticut....we ride in the same sandpit....he rode my raptor on Saturday....and he said...."damn this thing runs great, tons of power, pulls really hard from way down low and the mid range hit is unbelieveable"....and he use to use Sparks for his racing motors....So my opinion of my Sparks 690 motor was backed up by a profession national quality racer and elite chassis builder... hope you enjoyed my off the cuff review of my motor....
"this is just my opinion" all information written about is for entertainment purposes only....i do have the 690 kit...and i am very proud of my raptor...when i get the wife to update our webpage i will post the pics of it...ONE more thing...for those of you who know who Mike Walsh of Walsh racecraft is...he lives in connecticut....we ride in the same sandpit....he rode my raptor on Saturday....and he said...."damn this thing runs great, tons of power, pulls really hard from way down low and the mid range hit is unbelieveable"....and he use to use Sparks for his racing motors....So my opinion of my Sparks 690 motor was backed up by a profession national quality racer and elite chassis builder... hope you enjoyed my off the cuff review of my motor....
Apr 29, 2002 | 02:40 PM
#95
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
You guys ar just pissed because you already spent your money on 690s and 720s and now theres something bigger and better out and i know for a fact that powroll is a good reliable company and make good reliable product
Apr 29, 2002 | 03:39 PM
#96
Pro Rider
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 0
Herbdon, that sounds great! I am now in the market for an upgrade due to the fact that my motor is pumping oil into the cumbustion chamber and gas into the case. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img]
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Apr 29, 2002 | 06:32 PM
#97
Extreme Pro Rider
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,104
Likes: 0
Raptor720 thank you for the info. This is the only place around here for me to get technical information. At times I don't grasp everything people on here talk about, technicaly speaking , but it gives me a good place to start looking and learning as much as I can.
