770 POWROLL KIT?
Apr 27, 2002 | 02:08 PM
#81
Pro Rider
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,666
Likes: 0
<< Sparks won't give cam grinds if you order a cam from them? Shoulda called Gates back in the day to know his secret? Gates bought someone else's idea for "pennies" and sold it for....well....we now see where it got him. Read the book if you wanna know, it was no secret. Sparks, you sure seem shady to me. I for sure know where I will NOT be going for anything I ever need. >>
Your never going to get someone to give up there researched cam numbers, thats ludicrous.
Apr 27, 2002 | 02:18 PM
#82
Pro Rider
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 0
If they will not give up lift and duration, how do you know what you are getting? Not knowing what you are buying is what's ludicrous, to me. How would you know if it is gonna be better that what you already have, your going to A-S-S-U-M-E. Ever picked up a Summit performace car catalog? They all list right there all the specs. you need. Maybe I'm ignorant in the world of ATV motors, but if they are not willing to tell me what I'm gettin, I will not be buying from them.
Apr 27, 2002 | 06:02 PM
#85
Pro Rider
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,407
Likes: 0
Hate to come to the game late but what the hell. This is my understanding of a basic four stroke motor.
Pistons - All builders buy them from someone: Wesco, Trw and the like. So Unless the builder is modifing it they should all be the same.
Stroker Crank - Are all welded basicly the same, you add material and then regrind it. They should all be the same.
Bore - to acheive a bore size the cyclinder is either sleeved with a larger hole or a larger hole is cut into it and than honed. This should all be the same.
Connecting rod - Same as the piston. They have to be bought from someone unless that shop is making a billit one or has invested in a forge.
Valve - They have to buy them. Should all be the same, unless being modified.
Carbs - FCR - Stock same scene: Unless they are being modified.
Cams - they buy them from somewhere: Unless they have speced a grind. You can post the lift and duration numbers they are close to meaning less as you can shape a rubber band into millions of profiles, some will work some will not. EX. opening and closing rates, Cam time, etc. etc.
Clearance - All parts have clearance and balanceing Specs that must be maintained in order for the motor to last. Should be the same.
Port work - This is the only unknown variable. This is more of an art than pure science. How well one flows comparied to others doesn't give the full story.
No matter which one you buy if the only real variable is the port work than you should still see comparitable HP and torque figures. +/- 5% or less. The rest is in the tuning. Jets, timing, gears, and rider are the rest fo the bike performance up a hill. The dyno is the only Real way. IMHO. To controll the variables there you need the same dynoman, same fuel, same day (unless the dyno is in a controlled enviroment), same gears, same tires: etc. etc.
Pistons - All builders buy them from someone: Wesco, Trw and the like. So Unless the builder is modifing it they should all be the same.
Stroker Crank - Are all welded basicly the same, you add material and then regrind it. They should all be the same.
Bore - to acheive a bore size the cyclinder is either sleeved with a larger hole or a larger hole is cut into it and than honed. This should all be the same.
Connecting rod - Same as the piston. They have to be bought from someone unless that shop is making a billit one or has invested in a forge.
Valve - They have to buy them. Should all be the same, unless being modified.
Carbs - FCR - Stock same scene: Unless they are being modified.
Cams - they buy them from somewhere: Unless they have speced a grind. You can post the lift and duration numbers they are close to meaning less as you can shape a rubber band into millions of profiles, some will work some will not. EX. opening and closing rates, Cam time, etc. etc.
Clearance - All parts have clearance and balanceing Specs that must be maintained in order for the motor to last. Should be the same.
Port work - This is the only unknown variable. This is more of an art than pure science. How well one flows comparied to others doesn't give the full story.
No matter which one you buy if the only real variable is the port work than you should still see comparitable HP and torque figures. +/- 5% or less. The rest is in the tuning. Jets, timing, gears, and rider are the rest fo the bike performance up a hill. The dyno is the only Real way. IMHO. To controll the variables there you need the same dynoman, same fuel, same day (unless the dyno is in a controlled enviroment), same gears, same tires: etc. etc.
Apr 27, 2002 | 06:40 PM
#86
Pro Rider
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
I have been reading this topic for a few days now and I cannot believe how much B.S is in this topic. I personally shopped around to see who wanted my buisness as far as motor work is concerned and I called them all. Sparks, trinity, fst, ct, powroll, and bikeworx. From all of the phone calls I placed Raptor720 and trinity has been the only people that actually wanted my buisness and listen to what I wanted and answered all of my questions. I don't know about everyone else but when I spend over 3000 dollars on my raptor I want to feel comfortable on forking over that kind of money.
When I talked to sparks I felt like I was talking to a customer sevice rep at walmart. Quick to the point and didn't seem like he even enjoyed the sport. Then when I talked to Raptor 720 and trinity they gave me more info than I expected and they also talked liked they love the sport and it was like talking to an old buddy. These guys at least Raptor720 doesn't get paid to come here and advertise trinity. He gave me information on what kit he recommends and he even said everbody pretty much builds a good motor. I wasn't pressured he just gave me his advise on who makes a good piston cam etc.
And mickey I understand that you like to do your own work to make sure it is done right but when you lie to somebody about a turnaround time and expect someone to just get over it is not right. There are people out there that have a passion for riding and going 8 months without a quad is like haveing your girlfriend disappear for 8 months. I have been without my motor for 3 weeks and it seems like a century! If I was the guy you told that he would have his motor in 3-6 weeks and didn't get it done for 8 months you could bet your @ss that I would goto priceline .com and get a plane ticket to your shop and work out some serious issues!
Sorry for the long post I just have to vent a little. Thanks to Raptor720 and Harry and everyone else at Trinity they have only been the nicest people to take my 3300 dollars in my life. And what really makes me feel good about Trinity I am moving out by cali around Jan. of next year and I have been invited to ride with the guys like Raptor720 and the crew whenever I move there. That just shows love for the sport and everyone who rides! Like one big happy family!
When I talked to sparks I felt like I was talking to a customer sevice rep at walmart. Quick to the point and didn't seem like he even enjoyed the sport. Then when I talked to Raptor 720 and trinity they gave me more info than I expected and they also talked liked they love the sport and it was like talking to an old buddy. These guys at least Raptor720 doesn't get paid to come here and advertise trinity. He gave me information on what kit he recommends and he even said everbody pretty much builds a good motor. I wasn't pressured he just gave me his advise on who makes a good piston cam etc.
And mickey I understand that you like to do your own work to make sure it is done right but when you lie to somebody about a turnaround time and expect someone to just get over it is not right. There are people out there that have a passion for riding and going 8 months without a quad is like haveing your girlfriend disappear for 8 months. I have been without my motor for 3 weeks and it seems like a century! If I was the guy you told that he would have his motor in 3-6 weeks and didn't get it done for 8 months you could bet your @ss that I would goto priceline .com and get a plane ticket to your shop and work out some serious issues!
Sorry for the long post I just have to vent a little. Thanks to Raptor720 and Harry and everyone else at Trinity they have only been the nicest people to take my 3300 dollars in my life. And what really makes me feel good about Trinity I am moving out by cali around Jan. of next year and I have been invited to ride with the guys like Raptor720 and the crew whenever I move there. That just shows love for the sport and everyone who rides! Like one big happy family!
Apr 28, 2002 | 02:47 AM
#88
Pro Rider
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
First off, I note that this post has now over 100 posts and 1200 views. That must set some new record. It is also one of the better posts in that there has been very little name calling. Just good argument. I find myself reading this post in the morning just to check the score.
Smitty911,
Here is my opinion on your post.
You said, "Pistons - All builders buy them from someone: Wesco, Trw and the like. So Unless the builder is modifing it they should all be the same."
I disagree. Ross, J&E, Omega, Cosworth, etc., all offer custom spec. pistons. I happen to order custom pistons. I have special requirements for ring locations, dome shape type of valve relief, pin composition, weight, etc. Speaking of rings, that is another major power player.
You said, "Stroker Crank - Are all welded basicly the same, you add material and then regrind it. They should all be the same."
I disagree. These are not automotive cranks. They are press cranks. You can cam grind pins or weld the pin holes and rebore to stroke.
You said, "Bore - to acheive a bore size the cyclinder is either sleeved with a larger hole or a larger hole is cut into it and than honed. This should all be the same."
Again I disagree. There is more to a bore than a bore. You have different clearance numbers, different finish hones, different sleeve materials, and different methods of boring ie torque plates or non-torque plates.
You said, "Connecting rod - Same as the piston. They have to be bought from someone unless that shop is making a billit one or has invested in a forge."
Here is my 2 cents. Usually a high perf rod is purchased from a supplier. These rods can be built to spec. I change lengths, material and weights. Now, on the billet rod, I am aware of one type that works. That is a forged billet that is then CNC milled to spec either by the rod factory or the engine builder.
You said, "Valve - They have to buy them. Should all be the same, unless being modified."
Again, I believe that your opinion is too general -- valves are not all the same. Valves hold the key to a big power difference in a motor. The material can vary, the method of producing the valve, the angles, length, etc. all make a big difference.
You said, "Carbs - FCR - Stock same scene: Unless they are being modified."
Well, out of the box FCR's will not run on the Raptor. The jetting is way off. Jetting from one builder to another varies as does the personal mods and how they are mounted.
You said, "Cams - they buy them from somewhere: Unless they have speced a grind. You can post the lift and duration numbers they are close to meaningless as you can shape a rubber band into millions of profiles, some will work some will not. EX. opening and closing rates, Cam time, etc. etc."
Well, I agree in part. There are many aspects to a cam grind that one must consider. Nuff said.
You said, "Clearance - All parts have clearance and balancing Specs that must be maintained in order for the motor to last. Should be the same."
Here again, it has more to do with the intended purpose of the motor and the type of fuel than to "make it last."
You said, "Port work - This is the only unknown variable. This is more of an art than pure science. How well one flows comparied to others doesn't give the full story."
I disagree. Flow is critical. This is where knowledge of how things work really pays off. For example, the valves we talked about are one big factor in the port flow! On the exhaust, you typically want a very high low lift flow numbers while the intake should have a good high lift flow. We set the flow ratios between intake and exhaust differently depending on what the motor will be doing. Chamber design also plays a big factor here as does correct port length.
You said, "No matter which one you buy if the only real variable is the port work than you should still see compariable HP and torque figures. +/- 5% or less. The rest is in the tuning. Jets, timing, gears, and rider are the rest fo the bike performance up a hill. The dyno is the only Real way. IMHO. To controll the variables there you need the same dynoman, same fuel, same day (unless the dyno is in a controlled enviroment), same gears, same tires: etc. etc."
???. Well, the dyno is a tool to check jetting, play with cam timing, check exhaust designs, tune for power where you need it and to compare one engine with another.
Smitty911,
Here is my opinion on your post.
You said, "Pistons - All builders buy them from someone: Wesco, Trw and the like. So Unless the builder is modifing it they should all be the same."
I disagree. Ross, J&E, Omega, Cosworth, etc., all offer custom spec. pistons. I happen to order custom pistons. I have special requirements for ring locations, dome shape type of valve relief, pin composition, weight, etc. Speaking of rings, that is another major power player.
You said, "Stroker Crank - Are all welded basicly the same, you add material and then regrind it. They should all be the same."
I disagree. These are not automotive cranks. They are press cranks. You can cam grind pins or weld the pin holes and rebore to stroke.
You said, "Bore - to acheive a bore size the cyclinder is either sleeved with a larger hole or a larger hole is cut into it and than honed. This should all be the same."
Again I disagree. There is more to a bore than a bore. You have different clearance numbers, different finish hones, different sleeve materials, and different methods of boring ie torque plates or non-torque plates.
You said, "Connecting rod - Same as the piston. They have to be bought from someone unless that shop is making a billit one or has invested in a forge."
Here is my 2 cents. Usually a high perf rod is purchased from a supplier. These rods can be built to spec. I change lengths, material and weights. Now, on the billet rod, I am aware of one type that works. That is a forged billet that is then CNC milled to spec either by the rod factory or the engine builder.
You said, "Valve - They have to buy them. Should all be the same, unless being modified."
Again, I believe that your opinion is too general -- valves are not all the same. Valves hold the key to a big power difference in a motor. The material can vary, the method of producing the valve, the angles, length, etc. all make a big difference.
You said, "Carbs - FCR - Stock same scene: Unless they are being modified."
Well, out of the box FCR's will not run on the Raptor. The jetting is way off. Jetting from one builder to another varies as does the personal mods and how they are mounted.
You said, "Cams - they buy them from somewhere: Unless they have speced a grind. You can post the lift and duration numbers they are close to meaningless as you can shape a rubber band into millions of profiles, some will work some will not. EX. opening and closing rates, Cam time, etc. etc."
Well, I agree in part. There are many aspects to a cam grind that one must consider. Nuff said.
You said, "Clearance - All parts have clearance and balancing Specs that must be maintained in order for the motor to last. Should be the same."
Here again, it has more to do with the intended purpose of the motor and the type of fuel than to "make it last."
You said, "Port work - This is the only unknown variable. This is more of an art than pure science. How well one flows comparied to others doesn't give the full story."
I disagree. Flow is critical. This is where knowledge of how things work really pays off. For example, the valves we talked about are one big factor in the port flow! On the exhaust, you typically want a very high low lift flow numbers while the intake should have a good high lift flow. We set the flow ratios between intake and exhaust differently depending on what the motor will be doing. Chamber design also plays a big factor here as does correct port length.
You said, "No matter which one you buy if the only real variable is the port work than you should still see compariable HP and torque figures. +/- 5% or less. The rest is in the tuning. Jets, timing, gears, and rider are the rest fo the bike performance up a hill. The dyno is the only Real way. IMHO. To controll the variables there you need the same dynoman, same fuel, same day (unless the dyno is in a controlled enviroment), same gears, same tires: etc. etc."
???. Well, the dyno is a tool to check jetting, play with cam timing, check exhaust designs, tune for power where you need it and to compare one engine with another.
Apr 29, 2002 | 12:41 AM
#90
Extreme Pro Rider
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,104
Likes: 0
In referance to boring what are torque plates and non-torque plates? Could you also elaborate on the rings being a major power player? Do you mean wear causing loss of power or do they make some kind of ring that gives you more power? One more, how about Nikasil cylinders, any comments? Thanks for the time.