Kazuma Falcon 110cc CDI Fix
#1
#2
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
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First off I doubt your premise. Their are many, many failure modes on a CDI. Most result in a steady state "no spark" condition which is the easiest to troubleshoot. It is theoretically possible to have a failure mode where the CDI fails when cold, yet works when warm. It is extremely rare. Recently there was a thread where the CDI would only work when cooled down with freon. This is exactly the opposite from the idea you propose. This too is also very rare - and just as likely as the previous condition. Yet both of these are *extremely* unlikely overall.
One thing I've noticed over time, is that inexperienced technicians when told what to expect at a certain test point, will find the expected results no matter what leaps of faith and/or ridiculous assumptions they have to accept to get there. One of the most common is when I'm told that there is 12 volts at the coil, so the CDI must be good (because that is what they were told). Yet on their AC powered ignition doesn't have 12 volt anything in the ignition system anywhere. They cannot have measured 12 volts at all - yet they claim they did... . I've seen this over and over...
So I have my skeptics hat on at the moment .
1) Who told you that heating the CDI will fix it?
2) Why do you trust them?
3) What were your original symptoms?
4) Why did you suspect the CDI?
5) What did you use to heat your CDI?
6) How hot did you heat it?
7) Did your original problem reappear when the CDI cooled?
8) What enigne size?
9) How many pins on your CDI?
10) is your engine two or four stroke?
One thing I've noticed over time, is that inexperienced technicians when told what to expect at a certain test point, will find the expected results no matter what leaps of faith and/or ridiculous assumptions they have to accept to get there. One of the most common is when I'm told that there is 12 volts at the coil, so the CDI must be good (because that is what they were told). Yet on their AC powered ignition doesn't have 12 volt anything in the ignition system anywhere. They cannot have measured 12 volts at all - yet they claim they did... . I've seen this over and over...
So I have my skeptics hat on at the moment .
1) Who told you that heating the CDI will fix it?
2) Why do you trust them?
3) What were your original symptoms?
4) Why did you suspect the CDI?
5) What did you use to heat your CDI?
6) How hot did you heat it?
7) Did your original problem reappear when the CDI cooled?
8) What enigne size?
9) How many pins on your CDI?
10) is your engine two or four stroke?
#3
First off I doubt your premise. Their are many, many failure modes on a CDI. Most result in a steady state "no spark" condition which is the easiest to troubleshoot. It is theoretically possible to have a failure mode where the CDI fails when cold, yet works when warm. It is extremely rare. Recently there was a thread where the CDI would only work when cooled down with freon. This is exactly the opposite from the idea you propose. This too is also very rare - and just as likely as the previous condition. Yet both of these are *extremely* unlikely overall.
One thing I've noticed over time, is that inexperienced technicians when told what to expect at a certain test point, will find the expected results no matter what leaps of faith and/or ridiculous assumptions they have to accept to get there. One of the most common is when I'm told that there is 12 volts at the coil, so the CDI must be good (because that is what they were told). Yet on their AC powered ignition doesn't have 12 volt anything in the ignition system anywhere. They cannot have measured 12 volts at all - yet they claim they did... . I've seen this over and over...
So I have my skeptics hat on at the moment .
1) Who told you that heating the CDI will fix it?
A. I found it on a internet Forum
2) Why do you trust them?
A. I Didn't Trust them, I was very skeptical but what did I have to loose
3) What were your original symptoms?
A. No Spark
4) Why did you suspect the CDI?
A. It seemed the most likely Spot to start with after the plug, Plus I took a CDI off another ATV to see if it was truly the problem
5) What did you use to heat your CDI?
A. Heat gun
6) How hot did you heat it?
A. Warm but not hot I have no clue on how warm
7) Did your original problem reappear when the CDI cooled?
A. Nope ATV Sat for 36 hours and it started right up
8) What enigne size?
A. 110cc
9) How many pins on your CDI?
A. 5
10) is your engine two or four stroke?
One thing I've noticed over time, is that inexperienced technicians when told what to expect at a certain test point, will find the expected results no matter what leaps of faith and/or ridiculous assumptions they have to accept to get there. One of the most common is when I'm told that there is 12 volts at the coil, so the CDI must be good (because that is what they were told). Yet on their AC powered ignition doesn't have 12 volt anything in the ignition system anywhere. They cannot have measured 12 volts at all - yet they claim they did... . I've seen this over and over...
So I have my skeptics hat on at the moment .
1) Who told you that heating the CDI will fix it?
A. I found it on a internet Forum
2) Why do you trust them?
A. I Didn't Trust them, I was very skeptical but what did I have to loose
3) What were your original symptoms?
A. No Spark
4) Why did you suspect the CDI?
A. It seemed the most likely Spot to start with after the plug, Plus I took a CDI off another ATV to see if it was truly the problem
5) What did you use to heat your CDI?
A. Heat gun
6) How hot did you heat it?
A. Warm but not hot I have no clue on how warm
7) Did your original problem reappear when the CDI cooled?
A. Nope ATV Sat for 36 hours and it started right up
8) What enigne size?
A. 110cc
9) How many pins on your CDI?
A. 5
10) is your engine two or four stroke?
#4
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
12 Posts
My comments in blue:
First off I doubt your premise. Their are many, many failure modes on a CDI. Most result in a steady state "no spark" condition which is the easiest to troubleshoot. It is theoretically possible to have a failure mode where the CDI fails when cold, yet works when warm. It is extremely rare. Recently there was a thread where the CDI would only work when cooled down with freon. This is exactly the opposite from the idea you propose. This too is also very rare - and just as likely as the previous condition. Yet both of these are *extremely* unlikely overall.
One thing I've noticed over time, is that inexperienced technicians when told what to expect at a certain test point, will find the expected results no matter what leaps of faith and/or ridiculous assumptions they have to accept to get there. One of the most common is when I'm told that there is 12 volts at the coil, so the CDI must be good (because that is what they were told). Yet on their AC powered ignition doesn't have 12 volt anything in the ignition system anywhere. They cannot have measured 12 volts at all - yet they claim they did... . I've seen this over and over...
So I have my skeptics hat on at the moment .
1) Who told you that heating the CDI will fix it?
A. I found it on a internet Forum
2) Why do you trust them?
A. I Didn't Trust them, I was very skeptical but what did I have to loose
3) What were your original symptoms?
A. No Spark
4) Why did you suspect the CDI?
A. It seemed the most likely Spot to start with after the plug, Plus I took a CDI off another ATV to see if it was truly the problem
5) What did you use to heat your CDI?
A. Heat gun
6) How hot did you heat it?
A. Warm but not hot I have no clue on how warm
7) Did your original problem reappear when the CDI cooled?
A. Nope ATV Sat for 36 hours and it started right up [Everything about your problem points away from a bad CDI. If you had a thermal intermittent then the problem would most likely reoccur when it cooled down. Your's didn't, so I would suspect a bad connection at the CDI which may have temporarily been fixed after flexing wiring and CDI around. If the problem comes back then have a meter ready to measure all the stuff that feeds the CDI, and then measure the CDI output to the coil.]
8) What enigne size?
A. 110cc
9) How many pins on your CDI?
A. 5 [classic AC powered ignition]
10) is your engine two or four stroke?
A. 4 stroke
One thing I've noticed over time, is that inexperienced technicians when told what to expect at a certain test point, will find the expected results no matter what leaps of faith and/or ridiculous assumptions they have to accept to get there. One of the most common is when I'm told that there is 12 volts at the coil, so the CDI must be good (because that is what they were told). Yet on their AC powered ignition doesn't have 12 volt anything in the ignition system anywhere. They cannot have measured 12 volts at all - yet they claim they did... . I've seen this over and over...
So I have my skeptics hat on at the moment .
1) Who told you that heating the CDI will fix it?
A. I found it on a internet Forum
2) Why do you trust them?
A. I Didn't Trust them, I was very skeptical but what did I have to loose
3) What were your original symptoms?
A. No Spark
4) Why did you suspect the CDI?
A. It seemed the most likely Spot to start with after the plug, Plus I took a CDI off another ATV to see if it was truly the problem
5) What did you use to heat your CDI?
A. Heat gun
6) How hot did you heat it?
A. Warm but not hot I have no clue on how warm
7) Did your original problem reappear when the CDI cooled?
A. Nope ATV Sat for 36 hours and it started right up [Everything about your problem points away from a bad CDI. If you had a thermal intermittent then the problem would most likely reoccur when it cooled down. Your's didn't, so I would suspect a bad connection at the CDI which may have temporarily been fixed after flexing wiring and CDI around. If the problem comes back then have a meter ready to measure all the stuff that feeds the CDI, and then measure the CDI output to the coil.]
8) What enigne size?
A. 110cc
9) How many pins on your CDI?
A. 5 [classic AC powered ignition]
10) is your engine two or four stroke?
A. 4 stroke
#5
You may be right, I have 2 other Bad CDI'S I will test today with the heat Maybe it will work maybe it won't. I will also add that all the contacts on the plug are clean, I pulled every pin out of the plug and checked to see if they are loose on the connection pins they are all tight. I will report back later with result from test the other 3 CDI'S
#6
#7
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
12 Posts
I've given your results a lot of thought, looked at it from every angle I can think of using my 30+ years of experience in electronics. My conclusion thus far is that you are fooling yourself somehow. This cannot be. Your claim is bizarre, makes no sense whatsoever, and is statistically so improbable, that I have to throw up my hands and say that I don't believe the results. That's not the same as saying I don't believe you - I do believe that you are trying to promote a new and different idea - but I cannot think of any scenario that would explain how application of heat would alter electronics permanently on three CDI s in a row. After all the electronics inside the CDI are assembled with heat (i.e. soldering).
I can think of a lot of scenarios where heat could wreck an electronics module permanently - especially if the assembly is incorrect resulting in localized heating under operation - but I can't think of any scenario that would fix a bad CDI on a broad basis simply by adding heat. It just doesn't add up.
So am I right? I think so, but so were Pons and Fleischmann (who are undoubtedly smarter than me) when they published their paper on cold fusion. They were wrong, and it destroyed their careers. But fortunately I have no such risk, or any qualms whatsoever about being wrong.
It doesn't hurt to try heating a bad CDI. What's to lose - other than it being a waste of time - but I expect the results overall are going to be poor to non existant.
Last edited by LynnEdwards; 09-11-2012 at 09:08 PM. Reason: spelling
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#8
I like new ideas. I like to be wrong. Sometimes I am, and it's great. The knowledge base grows, and everyone benefits...
I've given your results a lot of thought, looked at it from every angle I can think of using my 30+ years of experience in electronics. My conclusion thus far is that you are fooling yourself somehow. This cannot be. Your claim is bizarre, makes no sense whatsoever, and is statistically so improbable, that I have to throw up my hands and say that I don't believe the results. That's not the same as saying I don't believe you - I do believe that you are trying to promote a new and different idea - but I cannot think of any scenario that would explain how application of heat would alter electronics permanently on three CDI s in a row. After all the electronics inside the CDI are assembled with heat (i.e. soldering).
I can think of a lot of scenarios where heat could wreck an electronics module permanently - especially if the assembly is incorrect resulting in localized heating under operation - but I can't think of any scenario that would fix a bad CDI on a broad basis simply by adding heat. It just doesn't add up.
So am I right? I think so, but so were Pons and Fleischmann (who are undoubtedly smarter than me) when they published their paper on cold fusion. They were wrong, and it destroyed their careers. But fortunately I have no such risk, or any qualms whatsoever about being wrong.
It doesn't hurt to try heating a bad CDI. What's to lose - other than it being a waste of time - but I expect the results overall are going to be poor to non existant.
I've given your results a lot of thought, looked at it from every angle I can think of using my 30+ years of experience in electronics. My conclusion thus far is that you are fooling yourself somehow. This cannot be. Your claim is bizarre, makes no sense whatsoever, and is statistically so improbable, that I have to throw up my hands and say that I don't believe the results. That's not the same as saying I don't believe you - I do believe that you are trying to promote a new and different idea - but I cannot think of any scenario that would explain how application of heat would alter electronics permanently on three CDI s in a row. After all the electronics inside the CDI are assembled with heat (i.e. soldering).
I can think of a lot of scenarios where heat could wreck an electronics module permanently - especially if the assembly is incorrect resulting in localized heating under operation - but I can't think of any scenario that would fix a bad CDI on a broad basis simply by adding heat. It just doesn't add up.
So am I right? I think so, but so were Pons and Fleischmann (who are undoubtedly smarter than me) when they published their paper on cold fusion. They were wrong, and it destroyed their careers. But fortunately I have no such risk, or any qualms whatsoever about being wrong.
It doesn't hurt to try heating a bad CDI. What's to lose - other than it being a waste of time - but I expect the results overall are going to be poor to non existant.
#10
CDI fix
Hello, I work at a small engine repair, Motor Sports shop, we had a 110 Falcon come in with no spark, read this thread and heated the CDI as recommended, and wa la, we have runner!! Did'nt really think that it would work, but figured it was worth a shot!! Thank God for the internet and useful forums like this!