This email is very long, so I apologize. However, I think everyone in the ATV community will find the post has a lot of valuable information and is interesting to read. If my post can help one person avoid being frauded out of their hard earned money, then that's my goal.

Who Am I. I am a normal ATV user and Ebay buyer like many of you. Ebay is a wonderful tool to buy and sell items, and millions of their transactions are flawless. However, getting "taken" from someone selling Pokemon cards, is a little different from losing $3,500 on a ATV of your dreams.

<u>How Do I Find The Fraud Sale?</u>
It's very easy to spot them. Polaris (given their popularity) seems to be the biggest target, but the other brands aren't immmune.

A) The ATV is listed as a Note: This listing is restricted to pre-approved bidders or buyers only.

If you send the seller an email, you get the story that the ATV is in Germany, Italy, (fill-in) your favorite EU country. The story is the same...American in europe...no place to ride and needs to buy a car.

B) The price is ALWAYS under $4000...an amazing, (too good to be true) price. And it is. I find that most of the prices are around $2,900 to $3,700 for new, or nearly new Quad with a REAL value of about $6,000 to $7,000

C) Most are near new...2002 to 2004. Nobody wants an incredible deal on a piece of crap, 8 year old ATV.

D) They will always ask you send the money via Western Union and THEY will pay for the shipping (so you don't have to worry about it...HOW CONVENIENT.) I worked for DHL for nearly 20 years...Trust me....it's well over $1,500 to send an ATV air to the USA. The shipper is usually FedEx Heavy Freight (Old Flying Tigers). FedEx...Trusted US company, so it seems legit.

E) When you look at their feedback...it's FLAWLESS..Hundreds of items usually. When you look closer...it's crap...PokeyMon card...Lamps...crap. No ATV's.

F) They WON'T LET YOU BUY IT ON EBAY!! This is the KEY. Reason? Two fold. They tell you, it's so they can keep the price low and avoid Ebay fees(against Ebay policy). Second reason? No feedback. You can't feedback a private sale...so they can dupe hundreds of people, and nobody can leave feedback. This is why it's against EBAY policy! Do NOT blame Ebay on this point. Ebay's policy is clear, and when you venture out into this territory, you leave yourself with NO RECOURSE. If you did become a victim through Ebay, you would still lose your money, HOWEVER, you could ruin the feedback on the seller. This is key, because the Feedback rating on the Fraud sellers is IMPRESSIVE. Some of them have hundreds of items (small albeit) to promote trust. It takes them TIME to cultivate a USER ID.

The part that is disheartening to me regarding Ebay, is how un-interested they seem in trying to stop this. I'm just an ordinary guy, and I was able to figure this out in a day's worth of research. Either Ebay doesn't really care, or their Fraud Department is understaffed.

Case in point. It's so ridiculous, that the other day I saw TWO identical photos..Quad...lawn...kid's swing. Ebay sale #1, legit seller..auction price at $5,900. Ebay Sale #2, same photo....different seller, price? $3,400. The two ads were RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER!! You could see the small teaser photo was the same.


<u>What Does The Email From The Seller Look like?</u>

While investigating...I emailed several sellers...here are the exact emails that I received. Different ATV's, Different days...same story:

Email #1
Thank you for your interest in purchasing my 2004 Quad. I know that are numerous offerts on eBay and I'm glad that you choose to contact me regarding your willingness to purchase.

First of all I must inform you that currently I'm in Essen, Germany and I have to let you know that the Quad is here with me and it is in a perfect condition,I am the first owner of the Quad; I bought it directly from an authorized Quad dealer.

The Quad has a clear title which you will receive it with the Quad.It can be registerd into your name,so stay cool about this. I have to tell you that I have other serious offerts which I have to consider and I will make a decision regarding this sale function at time of payment and price. The price that I am willing to sell it is US $3,000.00 (this price includes the shipping and insurance) and if you agree with this price we can start to complete the transaction. The payment must be done using a wire transfer.I prefer wire transfer because in this way i will ship the Quad in the same day you make the payment. You will arrange payment through Western Union . In case you want me to ship you the Quad right now you have to make me a confirmation of US $3,000.00.

After you've completed the transfer you will receive a confirmation that will alow me to track the transfer.

Here are the details that i need:
-sender name and address
-receiver name
-exact amount wired
-MTCN # (10 digits)
-if it is possible a scanned copy of the receipt format .JPEG for me to add to the files

As soon as the payment will be confirmed and the money properly sent, i will IMMEDIATELY proceed and I will ship the Quad via Lufthansa Airplane Cargo insured and It will take 72 hours until you will have it at your door. The shipping is free. The US $3,000.00 of payment are fully refundable if for any reason you do not accept the Quad or if the Quad has scratches, hidden defects, or it is not as advertised. I will even pay for the shipping back to my location if you reject the Quad but since it is a state of the art quad and works and looks perfectly I think it would not get to this.

Here is my name and adress you need for the western union transfer:
First Name:XXX
Last name:XXXXXXXXXX
Adress:XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
City:ESSEN
State:ESSEN
Zip:45329
Country:GERMANY

If you agree with these terms,let me know and i will be more than glad to start to complete the transaction with you. Thank you and I hope that you will have the pleasure to drive this Quad as i did.

Email #2
Hello there,

Thank you for your interest in purchasing my item .

First of all I must inform you that currently I'm in Italy and the machine is here with me. I am the first owner of the item; I bought it directly from a local dealership.

The machine is in perfect condition ,only 55 miles on it,no damage,no scratches or dents,never touched the ground, no hidden defects,keept in my own garage.The machine is an US model with US specs, it passed the test emissions and comes with all the documents you need to register the item ,still under warranty(extended at 2 years) .It has a clear title and it can be registerd into your name,so stay cool about this.

I'm selling it because I recently ordered a new car and I have to pay it in the next few days.

The price I hope to obtain is 2.900 USD (this price includes the shipping and insurance) and if you agree with this price we can start to complete the transaction.

I have to tell you that I have other serious offers that I have to consider and I will make a decision regarding this sale function of time of payment and price.

The package will be shipped from Italy using the FedEx freight delivery service. It will take between 3-5 business days to arrive to you depending on your exact location and i will cover the shipping costs and insurance.You will not have to pay additional taxes, just only the price for it.

The payment must be done using a money order service. I prefer money order because in this way i will ship the package in the same day you make the payment.

You will arrange payment through Western Union .

After you've completed the transfer you will receive a confirmation that will alow me to track the transfer.

Here are the details that i need:
-sender name and address
-receiver name
-exact amount wired
-MTCN # (10 digits)
-if it is possible a scanned copy of the receipt format .JPEG for me to add to the files

As soon as the payment will be confirmed and the money properly sent, i will IMMEDIATELY proceed with shipping.

The payment is fully refundable if for any reason you do not accept the item or if the machine has scratches, hidden defects, or it is not as advertised. I will pay for the return costs.

Here is my name and adress you need for the western union transfer:
XXXXX XXXX
#32 Via del Corso 2
Roma
Italy

If you agree with these terms,let me know and i will be more than glad to start to complete the transaction with you.

Kind regards


Sound familiar?? What's REALLY funny about this one...he says: I have to tell you that I have other serious offers that I have to consider and I will make a decision regarding this sale function of time of payment and price. Then 2 sentences later he says: As soon as the payment will be confirmed and the money properly sent, i will IMMEDIATELY proceed with shipping .

Umm...If you have "other serious offers" and the decision will be made on "time of payment and price". Why is there a set price? Secondly, what if 2 or 3 of those "serious offers" send money at the same time?? Of course, what the seller knows is there IS NO QUAD...he can accept money till the cows come home.

Email #2
Hello again,

I bought this quad from US for my husband and was going to register it here but changed my mind since he had an accident and cannot ride for a while. Ok, we will make business for 3200US$ for the Polaris, shipping charges included and I will pay for insurance, no import taxes will occur, no hidden costs involved of any kind. To complete this deal please let me know your full name and address so I can fill the papers and get ready your package for delivery. Payment will be done through western union cash money transfer, this is the easiest way to send money worldwide, all you have to do is fill a form with my name and address and your name and address at any WU office in your town and pay in cash (you cand find one on www.westernunion.com at 'find agent location'). From this service you will receive a number which I will use to check the transfer online and make sure the payment has been done. If so I will mail you the tracking number from FedEx and in 5 working days, the guy from this service will deliver in perfect condition your order to you. I will need a phone contact no. so I can give it to FedEx so they can call you when the atv arrives so you can pick it up. All papers (title, bill of sale, bill of laden) come with the package.

Here is my name and address for payment:
XXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
FASANENSTRASSE 164,
10719 BERLIN, GERMANY
Phone no: 000000000000000

Waiting for your reply,
Respectfully, XXXXXXXXX


What's interesting about this one....I have a friend in Berlin. So we told her we would go there to pick it up and give her CASH. Here was her answer: Random BS Generator is ON!

Hello again,

The expectations when engaging in a transaction is one of high level professionalism. For this reason I feel appropriate to tell you that my way seeks to prevent deception and unfairness in our business. I build my business on customer trust by implementing effective new ideas and WU and FedEx is a good one for this price. All that I want is to make a good deal and all my customers to be happy so be sure this deal will work smoth and clean. It is important that our deal to follow the rules and make the online shopping experience a positive one for both parties involved. A private deal combined with reliability and a satisfactory service reassure you of the most effective purchase on an online auction and brings a longstanding business relationship worthy of your trust.


Regards, Susan


A private deal combined with reliability and a satisfactory service reassure you of the most effective purchase on an online auction and brings a longstanding business relationship worthy of your trust.

HUH? What does this mean??

So, not being satisfied with that answer...I sent my friend to her "house" anyway. There's no crime doing that.

Here's what his email said:

Ken!

Sorry for delaying this information so long, but XXXXXXX XXXXXX fooled me!

I checked out that street some days ago, but didn't find anything, so i thought i'd write you, but i wasn't 100% sure then, if i made a mistake or not. So i took a look at a webpage providing Berlin's roadmap, searched for that address and found something. So i checked the street again. Since it's a one-way street is was a hassle to find a number that didn't exist! Driving all alon to the beginning and back again and again (you know): Fasanenstrasse only goes up to 80 something. That 164 or something does not exist!

Damnit but, that webpage displayed something allthough it didn't exist.:-) That's the reason it took me a while. Don't wanted to provide you with false/incorrect information.

Maybe she was aware of this when choosing that location - i mean the weppage displaying something though it isn't there - the street exists but not that address. i mean she could have picked a number that existed at least ... i don't know...

Maybe this info comes too late to be of any value, ... hope not.



<u>How Do I Find A Legit Sale?</u>

Ok. We've seen the ugly. What about the good? Why bother? Well, Ebay is still a great way to find a good deal on an ATV, not "too good to be true" deal...but a good deal. I have successfully purchased 3(three) ATV's on Ebay, but it took effort. In the end, the effort paid off and I was able to buy 3(three) 2002 Polaris 700 Twin ATV's for $16,000. The combined mileage on all 3 ATV's was 587 miles.

Here are my keys to success:

A) Avoid Sales that say: Note: This listing is restricted to pre-approved bidders or buyers only.. You've now increased your chances of a legit sale by at least 75%.

B) Check the Seller Feedback. I know this hurts the one-time ATV seller, but look for prior big-ticket sales...Motorcycles, ATV's, cars..etc. If they have good feedback on prior motorcycle or ATV sales....you've just increased your chances of successful ATV transaction to the 95% and up range.

C) Look at the source of the photo. Right Click on the photo, Select Properties. Check the source out. If the photo is hosted at www.mysite.com/pictures/atv1.jpg, then GO TO www.mysite.com. See what's there. In my case...I found another ad for the SAME ATV! Of course, totally different price and the site said "SOLD". The Fraud artist was just using the picture.

D) Only Buy an ATV in the US. I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but trust me. I have 20 years experience in the overnight shipping business...it's not $200 bucks to send an ATV from Germany to Ohio.

E) Even in the US, be wary of "Free Shipping". I've shipped ATV's from Tennessee to California and Alabama to California. 2 ATV's were sent on a Showroom Car carrier. Cost was $1050($525 per ATV). The other was sent via Trucker and the cost was $500. The advantage of the car carrier, the ATV's were delivered to my house...dirty..but no crate. The trucker, you'll have to go to their freight terminal to pick up, decrate, fill with gas and air the tires!! But it will be clean.

F) Ask for fax of the Title. If the seller is legit, they'll have NO PROBLEM DOING THIS!!! If the seller balks, hesitates or seems reluctant. Stop your transaction right there. It JUST AIN'T WORTH IT. Give the seller negative feedback, and move on.

G) DO NOT BUY OUTSIDE OF EBAY! If you start the transaction INSIDE Ebay....STAY THERE. No matter what the seller says..."oh, I want you to have it" or "let's just complete this now, I'll pull the sale and be done.". If he DOESN'T HAVE the BUY IT NOW option, then forget it. Stick it out. Sure, it may cost you a few hundred bucks in bidding...but what's more important?? A few hundred extra bucks? Or losing $5,000 to a fraud artist and NO RECOURSE to feedback??

H) Lastly, if you have NEVER bought anything Ebay...the Seller is now wary of YOU!! You have no history. Remedy this by clicking "ASK THE SELLER A QUESTION". Send the seller a note, tell them you just came to Ebay, you're very interested in his ATV and you will be bidding. At that point, tell him at close of bidding, if he doesn't mind faxing a copy of the title, you'd really appreciate it.

Anyway..I'm sorry this is really long...and if you haven't died of starvation reading it...congrats. I really wanted to make sure you all knew I wasn't some crack pot who lost their money (I never lost a cent). I wanted to make sure you all could see beyond a doubt they are frauds, and there's LOTS of them. But also take heart, it is possible to buy an ATV on Ebay...save some money and be satisfied. Just do your homework, and don't rush it.

 

I know it's not a good idea, but please try to help me out on this if you can. I too have much experience with these fraud sellers. When I told them I would not accept WesternUnion without seeing the quad at my door first, they almost always replied with something similar to this:

OK!
Look how we will do this:
first you will put the money at western union from your name and
address to a name that you choose like a receiver and my address(xxxxxxxx,
xxxxxxxxxxxxx,Bulgaria )so i can just check them first ,like a proof of
payment so i will see that you are willing to pay me.
After that you email me the transaction details that i need for
checking:
-sender's name and address
-receiver's name and address
-MTCN(money transfer control number)and the total amount that you sent.
After i check the money in the next seccond i will make the shipping to
your name and address.
When you receive and test the item you call at western union and tell
them to change the receiver's name with mine so i can pick up the
money.

Obviously, if one were to do this and gave them the receiver name like they said, then they could just go and pick up the money under that name so that's ridiculously stupid in itself. However, what if I kept the name disclosed and gave them everything else and then awaited the arrival of the quad. Like I said, it's probably not a good idea, but would it work?

 

I'm not sure if it would "work"....the point is...they don't have a Quad to sell. You're not missing out on any deal.

 

Great post Ken,
I hate to think of people losing hard earned money to these pond scum scammers.

Any scammer's best asset is your greed. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.

 

The scammers are doing the same crap on ATV TraderOnline.

 

There are other websites out there too, pulling the same scam. How much you wanna
bet it is the same people running all these scams?

 

A couple of months ago I tried to call a number on a featured add on ATV TraderOnline. The number was a phony. So I emailed the supposed seller. He claimed the atv was in San Antonio. So I asked for the address so I could go look at the bike. Lo and behold he was out of town on business and needed me to wire him a deposit to hold the bike. I asked for a legit number to call and talk to him. He claimed he was deaf mute and could not talk on the phone. I told him I didn't do business that way. I told him to email me when he got back in town and I would come see the bike and decide if I wanted it or not. He kept insisting I send him a deposit by western union. NOT!!!! I told him I was reporting his scam and that he should remove his add. The add dissappeared the same day!

The sad thing is there are probably some gullible people who actually wired him some money.

 

Since this whole ATV scam business came to my attention, I have been e-mailing every one I has seen with
TOO low prices on the quads, asking where the quad was so I could bring a cashiers check when I picked
it up. I acted like it was already a done deal, I was buying it, cash in hand.
LOL. Not ONE email has gotten any kind of response.

So then I played dumb and using another email return address and name, sent another batch an email asking
regular questions on shipping, payment, condition of quad, ect. They all responded pretty much the
same as above, some were even identical messages.

I retained all the email addresses, and after the responses I sent them another email
stating I was part of a citizens fraud watch group and "your ads and email address and any other data gleaned
has been added to our blacklist, to be distributed to millions of Americans."

Needless to say all ads have disappeared and there is no delivery to any of the email addys anymore.
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

LOL...pretty funny Woods.


It's really funny how they respond. I sent one an email after the "Essen, Germany." comment. I said AWEOME...my buddy Jan lives in Essen...I'll have him bring over the cash, and we'll be good to go.

He answered back with. "Great, wire the money and we'll be able to complete the transaction."

HUH?

I sent another email...no dude, my buddy Jan is going to check out the bike and give you cash...Euros/Marks/USD..whatever you want.

Never got another email.

 

Man... i about got janked... im glad i saw this.... so anyone else out their got a 2003 rincon 650 4x4 for sale for 3000$ ..... LOL , serious tho i did about get janked.