Yea, most people who hate nitrous usually get beat by it. I cant stand it when people run there mouths about how nitrous is cheating and for "pussies". All I have to say is bring your N/A motor and watch this nitrous "pu$$y" put it on your ***!!!!!!!!!!

 

I think there are people trying a 80-90 hp shot, but with a twin, that only 40 per.

 

JSsDS,

Actually they kinda have something like that now. The Boondocker system is basically that without the electronic contorls. Its the simplists system. The problem with it is though there is no actuall continual control of your shot size. You have to rely on your carb flowing enough fuel if not BOOOOM. Nice for small shots but I would never have it.

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There seams to be confusion on exactly what detonation is. detonation is caused from hot spots developing in your cylinder. Either on the piston, head, valves, cylinder walls, plug electrodes, whatever. On the intake stroke the N20/fuel mixture is ignited prematurely by the hot spot. The piston is trying to come up but being forced down due to the mix's expansion and boom, your walking back to the truck. There is a few ways to prevent hot spots in the motor. The other ways to get detonation is from timing issues or improper fuels and fuel mix ratios causing excess heat.

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Scooby,

The problem with Alchy/N20 setups, are they are extremely hard to tune. You will be hours upon hours trying to get your spacing right to get equal performance as you would a race fuel/N20 mix. Just like in that article, most guys shoot the N20 with a leaded race fuel while injecting Alchohol via the crabs or injection systems. Talk about complicated. There is one guy I know of trying this on a DS and he has been over a year messing with and still cannot get the performance of just running streight race gas/N20. Alchy alone yeilded better results than race gas alone though obviously.

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Boxman,

Call me so we can talk Aledo. Sounds like the NOS is still treating you good!!

 

I don't think there is a tuning problem with alcohol and NOS, assuming you run very low compression like 8:1, or lower if necessary, and you are running 4:1 air/fuel ratio. But I'm assuming gauges are being used. I use an EGT gauge and a wide band digital O2 meter that reads out on a LCD display 4.2 for example. And you must be tuning with motor and oil up to full temperature on alcohol - as the motor heats up more alcohol is evaporated leaning motor out. Alcohol is kinda opposite to gas in that it requires richening up as engine temperature rises.

The low compression makes the tuning easier and more forgiving - you are not tuning on the edge of detonation like you would be with a 11:1 or higher piston on gas. Running the alcohol close to 4.0:1 or 4.5:1 gives you a lot of margin against detonation. The theorectical air/fuel ratio for alcohol is around 6.5:1. You can run in the low 4's and not lose power.

On gas, if you go rich or lean by just a little bit you lose significant power/torque. Get into the 11:1 area and you lose power, get into the 15:1 area and you lose power and are getting closer to detonation.

I don't think most people realize how rich 4.0:1 is. On my 650cc DS with a detuned 8:1 piston, warming up motor in garage (idling & reving a little bit with no boost) for maybe 10-15 minutes, I go through 1/2 gallon of fuel.

The nitrous components would have to be compatible with alcohol - stainless steel, anodized aluminum, etc. to avoid corrosion. And, the capacity of the components would have to be big enough to support the high volume of fuel required. Were not talking twice as much fuel here, were talking at least 3 times as much or more if jetted to put out more HP than on gas. You'd need to work with the nitrous manufacturer to ensure the components you are using are sufficient.

In theory, in one afternoon you could dial in the nitrous. I would start with small amounts of nitrous and get the air/fuel ratio in the low 4's, noting what the spread on the jets is. With a small shot you're not going to hurt anything. Then I'd go up in several steps until I was at the target HP. I'd keep the timing retarded for the max size shot I planned on running.

 

Well Mr. AMD, how interesting your point is. NOS is a Dinosaur amongst men of technology. If you enjoy alway's futtsing around with jetting and temperatures and you like blowing a $100.00 a weekend on some silly gas then more power to you. So when your rings are cooked and your piston has big old dings in the crown after a dozen weekends and mine is nice and pretty and I still have all my compression and I don't have to mess with my jetting and I can go and RIDE instead of TUNE then you let me know how you really feel.

Example of Dinosaur NOS, Fairview, Utah. Fairview is where all the Biggest and baddest of the Snowmobile hillclimbers come to play and see who has the fastest and most powerful machines in the World. Well it looks like technology won it this year!! For the first time ever a snowmobile with no N.O.S. won the event. And guess what kind it was? A YAMAHA RX-1 with a Turbo. Stock R-1 Motor with a Turbo that put out nearly 300 h.p. and clowned everything out there. Even the big old 1700cc Arctic cat and PSI engines couldn't touch it. ANd the RX-1 is the heaviest production snowmbile built, it weighs in at about 700 lbs. And you know what the best thing is? THis snowmobile was this guy's daily driver. 4500 miles he pu on it this year with the turbo and not one problem!!! Let's see a N.O.S. motor do that!!![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

Your absolutly right. The one major problem is the amount of alchy you would have to flow. Even with the dual 39's it is very very hard to flow enough for motor only on the built up big bores. Then if you were to figure in flow rates required for 80-90 HP worth of a N20 shot pluss what the carbs would need, you would need a 8-10 PSI pump running 1/2" or bigger hose to get the fuel you would need. Now if one was to go to a EFI system then its a little easier due to the effeciency of the system. I know thats why AZsand went EFI was because he couldnt get the flow out of the carbs he desired for running the amount of fuel he wanted to get in and out. Thats significantly takes up the cost of doing the system. Another thing that would add to cost is the Alchohol ready solenoids and lines ect. that you mentiond are more expensive. Not only that, what comes in must come out so I would think some headwork on the exaust side pluss a very effeicient hi flow exaust would be needed to keep temps down. I dont care what anyone says the stock exaust with the endcap would not work in this situation. I agree the alchy methode would be the safer of the 2 but alot more costly to build. Another problem that a person would just have to experiment with is what plugs to run. Like you said Alch likes heat so it runs better with a hotter plug. N20 does not like hot pluggs and makes it more prone to detonation so you would have to find that balance too.

How well would the bike run when you werent shooting the N20 though? I know Alch like higher compression, if your running 8:1 thats deffinatly not high compression and with a N2O setup, VS like your turbo setup, your not getting any extra feed to the motor unless your on the button unlike a turbo where if you need it you spool er up and go. What I am getting at, is it might not be very ridable and be a drag bike only, which if thats your goal, nothing wrong with that.

I think a project like this would be hella fun to do. It wouldnt be cheap, well I guess it is when compared to what scooby has into his but still your talking some dough. If you could get carbs to work then not as bad but its not like the dual carbs are cheap either. Running the thing would cast some $$$$. you could go $9 a gallon race fuel and burn alot less of it or you can get $1-2 a gallon Alchohol and burn alot of it. Either way it wont be cheap.

 

Tony,

I fully see and understand what your getting at. I think Scooby's idea behind this thread was to show that getting the power he has can be obtained for alot less money and can be done reliably though. Yah his is the better all around set-up no doubt about it but nitrous is capable of getting the same amount of power. I dont know if I would say N20 is the way of the dinasour though. The technology behind it has jumped leaps and bounds the last 5 years as well. It all comes down to what you want to build. If you want a competitive drag type quad and are on a budget, nitrous will get you there a heck of alot faster than trying to put together a Turbo or a supercharged motor would. There is nothing wrong that. Often times as well nitrous is used in conjunction with turbos to battle the down falls of turbo setups like spool up time. So its not that evil of a thing. Ohhh and no offense taken, I just have to defend the nirous a little bit[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img].

I heard about the RX-1 your talking about, mean sounding machine. But, please correct me if I am wrong, At the World Championship Hill Climbs in Jackson Hole the Polaris took home the trophy agin for the umpteenth year in a row. If I understand correctly it is a NOS/turbo setup. Not for certain on that but thats what I had been told.

 

Well all of my nitrous motors are still together to this day. Not a problem with them, Its called knowing how to tune!!!!. I will agree alot of racers, street cars, atvs, whatever it is, are switching to turbos. I know the reason behind it, beleive me I have thought about a turbo on my street car, but the initial $4000 is a bit steep, especially since my nitrous motors are working out just fine. I dont race in any sanctioned events, I just do it for fun. But when I can cruise around on 87 octane and go where I want, then go to the drag strip, put some 114 in it and run 10:30's all day long and it only cost $60 or so, then I will just stick to that. When it comes to my ds, I will be the first to say I would rather have a turbo, you are able to get in it alot more then you are in a car. All I have to say is you keep on enjoying your n/a motor and I will keep on enjoying my n20 motors. How's that....

 

I have some experience with nitrous oxide in automotive setups, and scooby is exactly right. Sandman is hitting his nitrous at about 25hp at maybe ( I'm guessing here) 3000rpm and holding it all the way to ~9000rpm. Nitrous has no idea as to how fast the engine is turning and if 25hp is ok at 3000rpm then the amount of nitrous can be increased as the rpms go up. At 9000rpm he is shooting the same amount of gas per second as he was at 3000rpm, it's just not going to be as rich a charge as it was at 3000. A progressive controller can start you at 25hp and increase the volume as the engine speed increases. You'll never know how greedy you can get until it cracks a piston lifts the head or bends a rod. If you "burn" anything it's because you were lean and it's not the fault of nitrous oxide.

 

Hey Todd, Fairview is where all the big dogs go to play after the Championships. There is no course at Fairview like there is at Jackson Hole. It is a straight shot up a ridiculous steep hill and it is usually who makes it almost to the top with the fastest speed. It is like a huge Drag race like we have a 4sw's. Like 15 snowmobiles at a time. One RX-1 did have Turbo and N.O.S. but he didn't need to use it is what I understood. Hey bro I am heading up that direction tommorow. I will give you a call when I get to Afton.