why would i hate you? You make me look even faster then i really am. LOL

 

If you were going to build a kit you would want to look at the best know design to present and build on it. That would be a good reason for HPR to buy a pami, look at it and hopefully build a better design. (mainly easy install) LOL duneme, I am picturing it.

 

As the world turns! As Beach said, there is only one way for these bikes to evolve, take one design and improve upon it. After reading all the bull about the end caps, and how they are copied, Jetsnow has a legitimate question. I seen the cylinder, and have my reservations, however I expect it, like I expect someone to improve upon a good end cap design! Mr Hp, if you make my bike fast, I am one happy dude!

 

This goes for any builder. . .

It's wrong to steel someone else's design and claim it for your own!

I expect Ford to buy a Chevy and tear it apart for ideas but, if Ford were to take a Chevy exhaust, engine block, etc. and copy it (other than cosmetic changes) they would be sued and rightfully so! Further, just because Chevy could buy a Ford engine and look at it for ideas doesn't mean it isn't still steeling. Maybe one of these days there will be an End User License Agreement for cars too [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]

There have been claims that Mod Quad stole Mr. HP's end cap and Mr. HP stole Pami's jug. If the only difference is cosmetic then You are a theif - no matter who you are! As for who did or didn't do what, I'll stay out of that.

The reality is you won't see any lawsuits if any of the claims are true because there just isn't enough money in it to bring lawyers into the mix.

HP Research has obviously come up with a number of products on their own.

Things that are fine to do:
Offer porting or larger valves in the head - This is something that dates back to who knows when and I don't think anyone could track down the one person that came up with this idea.
Ported intake - same thing a porting really. I think Ron Wood was the first to offer them for the DS but, that really doesn't mean much for porting.
High compression piston - same thing as porting - everyone knows compression = more power. . . but, if you copy someone elses piston design, that is a problem.
Cams - they better have a different profile or it is wrong. I don't know much about building cams but, I would think these would be the easiest to copy from someone else as you would only have to change the design slightly to have a different cam.
Cylinder - enough said above
Pipes - I don't know much about pipe building. I would guess that many manufacturer's get different pipes and compare the design to theirs to improve power. Again, this isn't right but, I'm sure it does happen.
Carbs - the jetting / set-up done buy a builder is propriarity. HP Research has quite a few satisfied Lectron owners and the work they have done to set it up would be unethical to copy.

I've met Jetsnow at Sand Mt. a few times and one thing for sure is he has no hidden agenda here. He saw something he had concerns about.

 

Man you guys are a tough crowd...Jetsnow you should work for the CSI...LOL

 

Man I just dont get it .. anything whith MrHP is a hot topic... he makes a claim and people shoot him down, He makes a product and people question it. Amazing......

Now before people start banging out a reply... Im just saying how amazing it is that hes such a hot topic... OK? Im not saying anybodys right or wrong , thats not my call to make.

Personaly , I cant see what the problem would be if he did use a Pami jug. People are quick to make a judgement that hes stealing from the competition without getting A L L the facts first!
If hes using a Pami jug then whos to say if he doesnt have an agreement with them ? DO you know that ?

Bottom line is its a free world to say what you want ..... to a point.... go ahead and say you think somebodys full of Sh&t, go ahead and poke fun at my style, But when you call someone a thief.... You better be able to back it up. Thats a big statement and not to be taken lightly.

 

End caps or cylinders, the law is pretty specific. If someone has a patent, then the guy comes out with the "X" version, he must change it by 20%. It does not matter if its a horsepower, torque, cosmetic, finish, rounded corners or whatever --- 20% different - THAT'S THE LAW!!. If there is no patent, the sky is the limit and they dont have to change a darn thing. Also, if the unpatented design had already existed for sometime, there is almost no chance for the new version to get a patent on it.

I agree with the law 100%. DS650VIPER is also correct in my opinion. He said, "there is only one way for these bikes to evolve, take one design and improve upon it." And I also agree with what Annihilater said, ""if it was used as a template, it could still be a little different, In ways that cannot be seen with the naked eye" - 20% different if there is a patent - otherwise you can copy all you want. DuneMe, You said, "It's wrong to steel someone else's design and claim it for your own!" - right and wrong are values we all hold. If a person subscribes to a value, they also must live up to it, otherwise credibility goes out the window.

Mod Quad and Mr HP are both good companies and good guys. But it does appear that there has been some playing going on for quite sometime. If the game had the same rules for everyone, then ANNIHILATER, I would agree with you, when you said, "don’t hate the player, hate the game". But the players seem to think that thier values should apply differently. It makes you wonder who is indeed being played.

 

Prozack: just making sure you take a look at my post. I didn't call anyone a thief. . . I said if the only difference was cosmetic then you were a thief.

I disagree that Mr. HP is getting shot down. Yes, last week I know there was a topic about dyno numbers but, I view it as a conversation that needed to take place. There are a lot more people that just read than those that actually post and they should be informed on the opinions of others. I don't think anything negative was said about HP Research in that thread. As for other threads. . . Overall, I honestly don't believe most of the people on here would stand for someone bashing someone that didn't deserve it.

Dunepatrol: You are more familiar with pattent laws than I am. Didn't know 20% was the rule.

I doubt HP Research, Pami, Ron Wood, TVI, etc. have patents on their work.

I agree, if you do use the design / ideas of others you can't be upset if someone else goes and steels your design. . .


Do you really expect the lady that left her husband for you to not leave you for another dude sometime down the road???

 

As I see it..... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

The problem is not that someone may use or copy an idea. If you are going to copy an idea and then make some changes to that it works better - GREAT!!!!!!! PLEASE CONTINUE. This is an industry tradition. This is what makes all Industrialized countries.

The more serious problem would be to use the Jug, and say that it was your casting/jug when it wasn't. I must say that this looks bad. But I don't think that we know the entire story. If in fact Eric has used a PAMI jug, modified it, and now selling it as a third party - Thats the way business goes. NO different than the LECTRON HV series carbs. IF he is taking a PAMI jug and giving it a grind here and a grind there for installation reasons and calling it a HP exclusive casting - then were talking about something a little more under the table.

At the end of the day, only Eric knows what going on. Whether he will belly up to the table and lay the basics out, is unknown. I know that Eric has a big following, and those people will fight to the death to secure his name. I hope that everything is on the up and up, and that this is just an oversight of sorts.

I've never understood the grinding of stuff and Eric and I have our own views on the grinding thing, and many of you saw those conversations on old posts. The easy and VERY quick fix would be to have Eric post on this. Something more than what he's posted so far. But he probably feels like he doesn't have to..... Unfortunately the "where there is smoke, there is fire" might start to get the best of him. Guess he will have to deal with what comes of this.

Hope it works out Eric.

 

The way I look at it is even if it is a pami jug, it really doesnt matter. If it is a casting of a Pami jug, it really doesnt matter. If Mr.Hp came out and said yes I coppied the pami jug, does that really make it wrong? Not in my eyes, laws are laws and more than likely none have been broken. If he is offereing the same product as pami but at a cheaper cost and more than likely american made then i say more power to him. Then it is up to pami to stop ripping people off and step up to the plate and be competitive. If Eric improves on Pami's desighn then heck thats even better still yet. I have never had anything against HPR but I will admit, there seams to be alot of people on here that have their lips permanantly attached to his junk in the trunk and I get tired of hearing about it. That is not saying what he is doing isnt good because it is very good. I will probably never have any HPR parts just because i like doing things different than they guy next to me but I bet that guy next to me running the HPR stuff is going to give me all I can handle on the hill.

Now back to this jug issue. lets say for instance that it is indeed a Pami jug that has had the "Pami" ground off of it. Well hate to fill you guys in on this but thats not illegal. I own a flooring and furniture store and you would not beleive how common of a practice this is in the flooring industry. I have a certain carpet in my store that is made by Beaulieu. I buy it directly from them as it is my cheapest source to buy factory direct. Now I also have 5 other wholesalers and suppliers and even so called factory's samples of the exact identicle carpet. They all claim it is there's and they even rename it to there own name. So I have six different suppliers with six different names of the exact same carpet. If Mr.hp makes a deal with Pami and buys their jugs in bulk and then takes them, grinds the name off and sells them as his own..............welcome to the world of retail boys!