Fine, but my reasoning also sttands. You are never going to get the hours out of your 450R that can be had from a lesser tech engine in between rebuilds. yes, all quads are quiet stock. What I was aiming at there is that to get 450class power out of the 400's, you have to pipe, bore, and otherwise massage them internally, which adds to noise. I have put a little track time on a 700R, and stock those things have some pull! Sure, alot of people will put the obligaotry pipe on them and make even bigger numbers. It still remains that you are getting more torque down low than the 450's stock, and very close on the top end HP numbers wheeled right off the showroom floor. The package is a bit heavier, but handling is still very good and the thing won't beat you to death over the course of a day. As great as my YFZ is to me, it isn't a fit for everyone, nor is the 450R. If I was in the market today, right now, I would buy a 700R. It is a shame Honda doesn't have any competition in the same class, as I would really like to own a Honda someday[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

How come there isn't anybody in the Suzuki forum ever complaining that they don't have a big bore???

 

right now they are too busy arguing over how fast a 1986 quadracer will go. i gave them my thoughts on it and they can take it or leave it.

besides they have their king quad.... seems like that , the ltr450 and z400 are all that they talk about...but yeah they never say anything about a raptor like bike...thats fine...i guess they feel a z400 meets their needs. it certainly is a better buy than a raptor.

what happened to the suzuki 500 vinson with the real manual tranny? did it disappear? seemed like a step up in the right direction from the previous yamaha wolverine but i dont recall how much it weighed....

 

For me the big bore market is about two things: performance and RELIABILITY. It's true that these new 450s, (or my pred for that matter) can run with the big bores (DS650 and 700R) NO PROBLEM. But how much harder are we working our motors to do it? seems to me that a big bore which has a mild cam and soft compression ratio and still runs with the 450s will be doing so a lot longer, while the rest of us with smaller engines cranking out Big HP will be having to do maintenance and rebuilds and what-not. my $0.02

 

For me the big bore market is about two things: performance and RELIABILITY. It's true that these new 450s, (or my pred for that matter) can run with the big bores (DS650 and 700R) NO PROBLEM. But how much harder are we working our motors to do it? seems to me that a big bore which has a mild cam and soft compression ratio and still runs with the 450s will be doing so a lot longer, while the rest of us with smaller engines cranking out Big HP will be having to do maintenance and rebuilds and what-not. my $0.02
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;

Maybe or maybe not?? Honda builds a 1.8 litre racing engine that is supposed to be one of the hottest things going right now. 30 years ago people would have laughed their ***** off if you said you could pull 170+ HP out of a 4 banger. The titanium valves on the YFZ I'm not sure about?? It would be logical though to assume the larger engine would have a longer life.

 

You didn't start a Suzuki thread, but I would be tickled pink for Suzuki to offer something up. Zuk had dropped sport quads in general for the longest time, and doesn't really sell a lot of big bore dirt bikes either. Honda has had a sport quad out a bit longer, and has had a succesful big bore bike at the same time, so they are a much more logical choice to "encourage." Actually, the Can-Am 650 or 800 twins are what really needs to be updated with a manual tranny and thrown in a sport frame. 62HP stock, I'm there baby!

 

I don't consider anything over 400 pounds to be a true sport quad. You could easily put an XR650 engine in a 400EXish frame, and come in around 400 pounds. Just because it would be a big bore, doesn't mean it has to be a lard a$$ as well! Anything over that, would be to heavy. Fortunately, Honda is pretty good at keeping it relatively light.

OK, the DS and Kawi700 are well over 400 pounds (the Kawi is 500+, right?), but these are limited market niche quads for really big guys, but to big and needlessly heavy for the average size rider. Honda could go for a big frame big bore, but would it make marketing sense to produce a niche market machine that would have naturally limited sales???? Never going to happen........

Look at the utility quads. The North American manufacturers (vs the Japaneese) seem to think that weight doesn't matter. America has a national weight problem, in more ways than one!

 

Well, under 400lbs might be a tall order for Honda, they list the '07 XR650L in at 324.0lbs. That only leaves 76lbs for 2 more tires, an axle, shocks, more plastic, etc. etc. I know you really love lightweight, but not including anything over 400 lbs is a bit rediculous I think.

 

There is the durability factor when it comes to weight. I wonder if you crashed a YFZ450 and an Outlander 400 head on into a tree at the same MPH which one you could ride away on and which one you'd be towing home? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img]) Of course the moral of the story is to never crash, but I think everyone has at least one crash under their belt of some type whether their fault or that of someone else.

 

i wouldnt call 400lbs the limit, but anything more then slightly over 400 may be a problem. predators weigh something like 415 dry/440 wet (dont quote me on that), but dont feel heavy because the power makes up for it. anything over 415-430 dry could very well possibly run into problems with some people.

another question to ask yourself is "will this be just be a honda version of an older raptor?". if what some of us want to see is a XR650/400ex conversion, what will it have the raptor/pred/DS? doesnt?

though i admit, a 650 in a 400ex frame would be a cool thing, it would definitely be a "red raptor" unless honda gives it EFI, a good suspension setup (like the preds fox shocks), a wider frame, etc. in its first year.

finally, if this plan did go through, i would only hope they use the old 400ex front plastics/headlights. we dont need another 450r light set.