HELP 2009 Gio 125 ATV NO START
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03-07-2010, 06:57 PM
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HELP 2009 Gio 125 ATV NO START
Hello, I am trying to fix a friends Quad that wont start. He tried everything including a new engine. He brought it to a professional motorsports repair place where they spent several hours on it and charged him 300 bucks and said it was a mystery to them. They tried a new CDI, coil, the engine came with a new stator (will give you readings in a minute) I have gone through several threads here for no start problems but to no avail. Here is what I've done. I have 150 lbs of compression, valves are adjusted and moving fine, carb taken apart and cleaned (although owner put carb on a different Gio and it ran fine). At first I had a weak intermittent spark with a test plug gapped a good 1/4 inch. I got him to give me a known good coil and now I have good steady blue spark but still no fire. I have not tried a new plug yet, it is new but has been flooded many times. I get good spark with it outside the engine but inside the engine I suspect not. No restrictions in the intake or exhaust and intake gaskets and spacer look fine. Here are the electrical measurments I've done. This was done with CDI 5 wire and Coil UNPLUGED.
Coil Primary leads green and black/yel .8 ohms
Coil secondary from plug boot to primary ground terminal on coil 8800 ohms
CDI ground- green 2.1 ohms
CDI AC IGN- blk/red 63.5 VAC, and DCV meter jumps from pos to neg volts
CDI IGN Pulse- blu/wht .4 VAC, and .25 VDC
Kill switch- blk/wt ign on 12.6 VDC, cranking 11.6 VDC
Coil output- blk/yel CDI plugged in 18 VAC, CDI AND Coil plugged in .3 VAC
Very last step showed good blue spark on test plug 1/4 inch gap
CDI UNPLUGED
CDI AC IGN- blk/red 352 ohms
CDI IGN Pulse- blu/wht 131 ohms
CDI, COIL, and STATOR UNPLUGGED Checked continuity to GND
None grounded except grn wire 1.9 ohms and kill sw wire- ON 44.7 ohms and off 7.3 ohms.
I'm a licenced auto tech of 26 years so I know my way around electrical and testing and mechanical and fuel systems and have done some small engine repair the last couple years. Like I say thie thing seems to have air,fuel, and spark but I don't even get the slightest "fire". I have not tried a new sparkplug and the other thing I don't know about is, is there some sort of "timing" adjustment on the stator? I havent taken the cover off yet so I don't know. Also I may have good spark outside the engine but inside the engine under compression load it requires more power to create a spark. I will try a new plug but other than trying another CDI which is just throwing parts at it now I am at a loss.
Sorry for the long post but this reflects a good 15 hours of head scratching and frustration. Not even a professional shop could figure it out so I am taking a shot at it. I have learned alot about these bikes now but this is getting silly now. Must be something I'm overlooking.
Thanks for looking.
Kel
Coil Primary leads green and black/yel .8 ohms
Coil secondary from plug boot to primary ground terminal on coil 8800 ohms
CDI ground- green 2.1 ohms
CDI AC IGN- blk/red 63.5 VAC, and DCV meter jumps from pos to neg volts
CDI IGN Pulse- blu/wht .4 VAC, and .25 VDC
Kill switch- blk/wt ign on 12.6 VDC, cranking 11.6 VDC
Coil output- blk/yel CDI plugged in 18 VAC, CDI AND Coil plugged in .3 VAC
Very last step showed good blue spark on test plug 1/4 inch gap
CDI UNPLUGED
CDI AC IGN- blk/red 352 ohms
CDI IGN Pulse- blu/wht 131 ohms
CDI, COIL, and STATOR UNPLUGGED Checked continuity to GND
None grounded except grn wire 1.9 ohms and kill sw wire- ON 44.7 ohms and off 7.3 ohms.
I'm a licenced auto tech of 26 years so I know my way around electrical and testing and mechanical and fuel systems and have done some small engine repair the last couple years. Like I say thie thing seems to have air,fuel, and spark but I don't even get the slightest "fire". I have not tried a new sparkplug and the other thing I don't know about is, is there some sort of "timing" adjustment on the stator? I havent taken the cover off yet so I don't know. Also I may have good spark outside the engine but inside the engine under compression load it requires more power to create a spark. I will try a new plug but other than trying another CDI which is just throwing parts at it now I am at a loss.
Sorry for the long post but this reflects a good 15 hours of head scratching and frustration. Not even a professional shop could figure it out so I am taking a shot at it. I have learned alot about these bikes now but this is getting silly now. Must be something I'm overlooking.
Thanks for looking.
Kel
#4
03-09-2010, 01:08 AM
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My responses embedded in your post in red text
Hello, I am trying to fix a friends Quad that wont start. He tried everything including a new engine. He brought it to a professional motorsports repair place where they spent several hours on it and charged him 300 bucks and said it was a mystery to them. They tried a new CDI, coil, the engine came with a new stator (will give you readings in a minute) I have gone through several threads here for no start problems but to no avail. Here is what I've done. I have 150 lbs of compression, valves are adjusted and moving fine, carb taken apart and cleaned (although owner put carb on a different Gio and it ran fine). At first I had a weak intermittent spark with a test plug gapped a good 1/4 inch. I got him to give me a known good coil and now I have good steady blue spark but still no fire. I have not tried a new plug yet, it is new but has been flooded many times. I don't understand the "flooded many times" phrase. I get good spark with it outside the engine but inside the engine I suspect not. No restrictions in the intake or exhaust and intake gaskets and spacer look fine. Here are the electrical measurments I've done. This was done with CDI 5 wire and Coil UNPLUGED.
Coil Primary leads green and black/yel .8 ohms OK
Coil secondary from plug boot to primary ground terminal on coil 8800 ohms OK
CDI ground- green 2.1 ohms Already corrected in you last post
CDI AC IGN- blk/red 63.5 VAC, and DCV meter jumps from pos to neg volts OK
CDI IGN Pulse- blu/wht .4 VAC, and .25 VDC OK on the AC measurement. I'd expect zero volts DC, but you may a different deisgn CDI. I know there is more than one. The trigger pulse signal is obviously working since you have spark while cranking.
Kill switch- blk/wt ign on 12.6 VDC, cranking 11.6 VDC This puzzles me. When the ignition switch is on but the motor is stopped there is no power source to the CDI so I'd expect this voltage to be zero. But once again, your spark isn't being killed so even though I don't undertand it appears that everything is working.
Coil output- blk/yel CDI plugged in 18 VAC, CDI AND Coil plugged in .3 VAC
Very last step showed good blue spark on test plug 1/4 inch gap. That's a big spark. If your plug is good then I'd expect that a spark that jumps a 1/4" gap can surely jump the small pressurized gap on the plug inside the cylinder.
CDI UNPLUGED
CDI AC IGN- blk/red 352 ohms OK
CDI IGN Pulse- blu/wht 131 ohms OK
CDI, COIL, and STATOR UNPLUGGED Checked continuity to GND
None grounded except grn wire 1.9 ohms and kill sw wire- ON 44.7 ohms and off 7.3 ohms. Twice now you've measured about 2 ohms to ground on the CDI ground pin. Subsequently you revised that to 0 ohms. Hmmm. Also the kill switch resistances are strange to me (like the voltages). Quads with 5 pin CDI's run when this pin is open. You might try disconnecting this wire at the CDI and see what happens. Just keep in mind that if the quad should somehow start up there is high voltage on this line. So if you want to stop the engine you will need to hook it back up without you being part of the circuit.
I'm a licenced auto tech of 26 years so I know my way around electrical and testing and mechanical and fuel systems and have done some small engine repair the last couple years. Like I say thie thing seems to have air,fuel, and spark but I don't even get the slightest "fire". I have not tried a new sparkplug (yes, definately try changing it) and the other thing I don't know about is, is there some sort of "timing" adjustment on the stator? I havent taken the cover off yet so I don't know. There are no timing adjustments at the stator or anywhere else. The ignition timing is set by the pickup coil position relative to a raised bump on the flywheel. I've read about people with sheared flywheel keyways, or open ground returns on the trigger pickup coil that caused weird ignition timing shifts. You may want to check the timing with a timing light. My quad has a removable access plug on the stator cover that allows you view the flywheel timing marks. I don't know about your quad engine, but it is worth looking for. Also I may have good spark outside the engine but inside the engine under compression load it requires more power to create a spark. I will try a new plug (yes, a new plug is a cheap test) but other than trying another CDI which is just throwing parts at it now I am at a loss.
Sorry for the long post but this reflects a good 15 hours of head scratching and frustration. Not even a professional shop could figure it out so I am taking a shot at it. I have learned alot about these bikes now but this is getting silly now. Must be something I'm overlooking.
Thanks for looking.
Kel
Coil Primary leads green and black/yel .8 ohms OK
Coil secondary from plug boot to primary ground terminal on coil 8800 ohms OK
CDI ground- green 2.1 ohms Already corrected in you last post
CDI AC IGN- blk/red 63.5 VAC, and DCV meter jumps from pos to neg volts OK
CDI IGN Pulse- blu/wht .4 VAC, and .25 VDC OK on the AC measurement. I'd expect zero volts DC, but you may a different deisgn CDI. I know there is more than one. The trigger pulse signal is obviously working since you have spark while cranking.
Kill switch- blk/wt ign on 12.6 VDC, cranking 11.6 VDC This puzzles me. When the ignition switch is on but the motor is stopped there is no power source to the CDI so I'd expect this voltage to be zero. But once again, your spark isn't being killed so even though I don't undertand it appears that everything is working.
Coil output- blk/yel CDI plugged in 18 VAC, CDI AND Coil plugged in .3 VAC
Very last step showed good blue spark on test plug 1/4 inch gap. That's a big spark. If your plug is good then I'd expect that a spark that jumps a 1/4" gap can surely jump the small pressurized gap on the plug inside the cylinder.
CDI UNPLUGED
CDI AC IGN- blk/red 352 ohms OK
CDI IGN Pulse- blu/wht 131 ohms OK
CDI, COIL, and STATOR UNPLUGGED Checked continuity to GND
None grounded except grn wire 1.9 ohms and kill sw wire- ON 44.7 ohms and off 7.3 ohms. Twice now you've measured about 2 ohms to ground on the CDI ground pin. Subsequently you revised that to 0 ohms. Hmmm. Also the kill switch resistances are strange to me (like the voltages). Quads with 5 pin CDI's run when this pin is open. You might try disconnecting this wire at the CDI and see what happens. Just keep in mind that if the quad should somehow start up there is high voltage on this line. So if you want to stop the engine you will need to hook it back up without you being part of the circuit.
I'm a licenced auto tech of 26 years so I know my way around electrical and testing and mechanical and fuel systems and have done some small engine repair the last couple years. Like I say thie thing seems to have air,fuel, and spark but I don't even get the slightest "fire". I have not tried a new sparkplug (yes, definately try changing it) and the other thing I don't know about is, is there some sort of "timing" adjustment on the stator? I havent taken the cover off yet so I don't know. There are no timing adjustments at the stator or anywhere else. The ignition timing is set by the pickup coil position relative to a raised bump on the flywheel. I've read about people with sheared flywheel keyways, or open ground returns on the trigger pickup coil that caused weird ignition timing shifts. You may want to check the timing with a timing light. My quad has a removable access plug on the stator cover that allows you view the flywheel timing marks. I don't know about your quad engine, but it is worth looking for. Also I may have good spark outside the engine but inside the engine under compression load it requires more power to create a spark. I will try a new plug (yes, a new plug is a cheap test) but other than trying another CDI which is just throwing parts at it now I am at a loss.
Sorry for the long post but this reflects a good 15 hours of head scratching and frustration. Not even a professional shop could figure it out so I am taking a shot at it. I have learned alot about these bikes now but this is getting silly now. Must be something I'm overlooking.
Thanks for looking.
Kel
#5
03-09-2010, 10:29 AM
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Lynn, thank you. The problem was indeed seeing a 12 volt signal at the kill switch pin. I unhooked it from the CDI an this thing now runs. Next I went on a hunting mission to see where this power was coming from. Turns out it was coming from the ign switch. According to the wiring diagram I got here the blk/wht goes to the ign switch and should be grounded when off and open when on. I had 12 VDC when on and should of had zero so there is a short in the switch. It's not much of a short because it wont light up my test light but my test meter definately shows 12 volts. I unhooked this wire from the switch connector and taped it up and now both kill switches work fine. The only thing that wont work now is you can't shut the engine off using the ign switch, have to use the kill switch.
Thanks a huge amount for the help. Looking again at the diagram I should have realized there should have been no power at the CDI from the kill switch. Oh well, sometimes you get thinking too hard and miss the basics
Thanks a huge amount for the help. Looking again at the diagram I should have realized there should have been no power at the CDI from the kill switch. Oh well, sometimes you get thinking too hard and miss the basics
#6
03-09-2010, 12:08 PM
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Update. Ok this quad runs fine now after adjusting the carb but now I've dicovered yet another problem. Battery is not charging. Ok so now to the rectifier.
With rectifier UNPLUGED and engine running
Yellow 12.5 VAC
White 15.5 VAC
Red Battery voltage. When I plug rectifier in no change
Yellow 0.001 ohms
White 0.001 ohms
Green 0.001 ohms
I'll look up "no charging problem" now. Not sure what the voltage on the white and yellow wires should be.
Man what a nightmare this thing has been.
Kel
With rectifier UNPLUGED and engine running
Yellow 12.5 VAC
White 15.5 VAC
Red Battery voltage. When I plug rectifier in no change
Yellow 0.001 ohms
White 0.001 ohms
Green 0.001 ohms
I'll look up "no charging problem" now. Not sure what the voltage on the white and yellow wires should be.
Man what a nightmare this thing has been.
Kel
#7
03-09-2010, 01:12 PM
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'nother update. Battery is charging fine. I had the brake light still on and checked voltage at idle. Brake light off and high RPM I'm getting 13.2 -13.4 volts. Just took the quad for a rip and seems to be running fine. Thanks again Lynn for your help. I'm going to start fixing these things as a side job so you'll probably be hearing from me again 
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#9
01-22-2011, 01:01 PM
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Thought I was onto something. Need professional help!
Thread ressurection!
I thought I was on to something, but no luck. My son's quad exhibits the same symtoms are kelpaso's.
I have 2 2003 Arctic Cat Y-12 2 stroke 90s. One will not start; turned it off one night, the next morning it fired off and then died. The unit has not started in 2 weeks and I have labored with it day and night. Tried the CDI, coil, ignition switch, and regulator off running Cat to no avail. Tried a new stator with no luck. I checked the compression and it was a little low(even though it was same as running Cat) so I rebuilt the top end with a new piston, rings, and jug. The unit will not start; it does have spark but I thought like kelpaso that maybe it wasn't hot enough once installed in the head. I started trying to track down any wiring issues and have spent most of today rewiring the ground wires in the main harness because I found some burned spots the previous owner had attempted repair. It had had a pretty good melt down of the ground wires.
Got that all cleaned up and it still will not start. I also swapped the switch on the bars to check the cutoff switch; it is good.
The unit turns over good but exhibits no sign of trying to fire off; plug is wet after each attempt to start. Oh and I have had the carb apart several times. Carb is good and clean, new fuel filter. Needle and seat good; adjusted the float level to shut off quicker. Also inspected the reed cage and reed valves looked good.
I got no more ideas!
Read my brains out this am- you guys have made some awesome posts, hope you can help.
Thanks
Eddy
I thought I was on to something, but no luck. My son's quad exhibits the same symtoms are kelpaso's.
I have 2 2003 Arctic Cat Y-12 2 stroke 90s. One will not start; turned it off one night, the next morning it fired off and then died. The unit has not started in 2 weeks and I have labored with it day and night. Tried the CDI, coil, ignition switch, and regulator off running Cat to no avail. Tried a new stator with no luck. I checked the compression and it was a little low(even though it was same as running Cat) so I rebuilt the top end with a new piston, rings, and jug. The unit will not start; it does have spark but I thought like kelpaso that maybe it wasn't hot enough once installed in the head. I started trying to track down any wiring issues and have spent most of today rewiring the ground wires in the main harness because I found some burned spots the previous owner had attempted repair. It had had a pretty good melt down of the ground wires.
Got that all cleaned up and it still will not start. I also swapped the switch on the bars to check the cutoff switch; it is good.
The unit turns over good but exhibits no sign of trying to fire off; plug is wet after each attempt to start. Oh and I have had the carb apart several times. Carb is good and clean, new fuel filter. Needle and seat good; adjusted the float level to shut off quicker. Also inspected the reed cage and reed valves looked good.
I got no more ideas!
Read my brains out this am- you guys have made some awesome posts, hope you can help.Thanks
Eddy
#10
01-22-2011, 02:19 PM
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