A common event in discussions on specific topics is the straying from that topic. Whether with e-mail or at public meetings........Once a discussion has changed into a "he said, she said, they said" the focus is lost and the results are questionable. Years of watching the local environmental group muddy the waters, shift the focus, inject philosophy and feeling instead of truth make it obvious why government agencies can be used as a tool to disrupt activities. If you can make someone mad, if you can shift the focus, you can win the battle.........We are losing access to public land, we will loose more in the future.........Once its gone it will not come back......Tass

 

Isn't that a definition of government by the people? Truth is a relative word when defining philosophy and emotion.

'Democracy is 51% of the citizens forcing their opinion on the other 49%'

 

You are correct on both counts Georged. I should not have used the word "truth" and struggled with it before I typed it. Perhaps science would be a better word? I was looking at something that reflected the opposite of "fabrication". I would also agree with the 51%-49% but would sure like to see a level playing field at some point..........Tass

 

ATVers in general still haven't grasped the fact that as an entity we're very small potatoes with a defined pursuit requiring direct participation. At this point in time, our public reputation is pretty soiled due to a minority(?) of irresponsible members and there's simply no way to effectively police them from within.

When compared with environmental oriented groups having big bucks, lots of political clout, membership requiring only emotion often contrived by leadership and in most cases not requiring direct participation (actually using the outdoors), the ATV industry itself isn't foolish enough to support off-road activities other than those with confined performances on private property showcasing their products. When I read posts demanding the ATV industry get behind demands for more access to public land, I don't think the posters actually understand the scope of those demands, which would bring unfavorable publicity to the industry due to existing irresponsibility and invite even more intense public scrutiny.

If I had an interest in even slowing the closing of public lands to ATV activities, I'd get in bed with one of the big enviro organizations based on enhancing disability access (some meaty federal laws to take advantage of there), senior access and participation, substantial additional membership revenue (a premium for motorized stuff always gets attention) and most important, opportunity to effectively police the irresponsible sector. Power is very important to anyone in the public eye and with a cause dedicated to preservation of public lands, that would attract even the ATV industry. Honda and others would jump on a affiliation like that. Why reinvent the wheel when there are tools that could be adapted for the same purpose?

 

I suspect things must become much worse before there will be any gathering of the clans (so to speak) In past years I put together coalitions, groups, tours, at one point put together an organization called the Blue Mountains Natural Resources Institute. Over 150 partners from the full spectrum of forest users. We were more than able to communicate as individuals, friendships and cooperation were common.............when the representatives had to go back to their parent organization for approval or active involvement with something activities fell apart. No way to get things to work at that level. I "pulled the plug" so to speak when the forest service indicated they would continue to be involved if the organization rubber stamped their efforts. It did work for a while, it did accomplish a few things, but you are absolutely right in that dollars and politics will rule...............Tass

 

Look at what we are up against.... Ever ychild in school gets educated on saving the environment.. Every child understands Earth day, damage to the environement etc. Somewhere that philosophy is lost when you introduce gasoline and internal combustion engines...
We talk about teaching our kids to be good citizens, to do what is right, and to think about others... then we go and run stop signs, exceed the speed limit, make illegal turns, Illegally park our cars... take this a bit further, we push our kids to win at all cost, we encourage them to go faster, to jump higher, to crash the other kid out etc... what kinds of signals do we send to our children?
I am not sure.. but I get the impression that today's generation is missing that something that some of the older set had ingrained in their soul. Things like respect for elders and authority.. be that teachers, bosses, law enforcement, laws and rules in general etc... What we see is total anarchy and disrespect for anything or any idea that didn't orginate in their own mind, or doesn't fit into their chaotic existance.
And what do they have to show for it? Depression, totally bored whiners and live for the moment thrill seekers... tearing it up when ever it suits them.. with no regard to what the future holds for not only them, but the poor kids that come after them. Then they come on places like this and complain when the Cops "Harass them", or they get fined for not having the proper registration stickers etc. or they get run off some guy's land. It doesn't matter that they had just compleated a set of donuts in his freshly planted corn field, or that their loud pipes caused the farmer's cows to stop producing milk.. or his chickens to stop laying eggs etc. All they see is an angry old geezer that is trying to keep them from their "Rights".
I agree we have the same right to expect access to public land, but we have to do so in an environmentally responsible manner and we as enthusiast must control our urges to blast our way through.. The most successful riding areas I have had the pleasure to ride have been those that are well maintained, and rules are enforced... albiet fairly.
Our generation spared the rod.. now we have to live with the consequences. The Genie is out of the bottle so to speak..
Somehow, we have to reach to the new beginners out there and convey to them the values we learned when we were young. I am not talking having a lot of Beaver Cleaver's running around.. but we have lost one generation already.. if we do not find a way to reach the next one, we will leave the world with problems that nobody can solve...

 

If the posters up here are afraid to even so much as 'question' the very groups who lead them (as I have observed time and time again any time you mention the AMA (ATVA) or even their local 'non-profit' clubs)....how would one expect that they the stones to talk plainly to this younger orv generation....kids who could care less about sending these 'leaders' anything?

My point is don't blame these kids or the 'manner' in which we've raised 'em....blame the simple fact that their elders <U>today</U> can't muster up the stones to speak out or model anything resembling what a true man or woman acts like anyways!

Do I have to make it any simpler than that?

 

I will admit your posts are fairly simple blackballed. Many of us do not require groups for leadership but lead ourselves and our children and our grandchildren. If I leave them nothing but a legacy of respect and manners and confidence in themselves I will have left them with what they need. I started this topic addressing only the question of access to public land. There are wonderful places to ride, Frazer Campground is one. 140 miles of trails of which some are good, some are tough but it is organized, full of sign posts, tracks and people. There are millions of acres of public land that I and others use for recreation. No groups, no trails, no trash and no crowds and no sign posts. Public access to public ground is in jeopardy, that was my topic............Tass.

 

"...Many of us do not ***<U>require</U>**** groups for leadership but lead ourselves and our children and our grandchildren. If ***"I"*** leave them nothing but a legacy of respect and manners and confidence in themselves ***I*** will have left them with what they <U>need</U>....Public access to public ground is in jeopardy, that was my topic..."

Then I guess my point is absolutely lost in this debate.

I meet orv riders every day who feel the exact same way as you do. Leave us <U>alone</U> ...and we'll raise our kids to believe that organized orv activism does absolutey nothing to affect the overall amount or quality of the trails they are 'left with' in the future.

I can't argue with that logic and never will. Kids should wait for "others" maybe even "the government" to take care of their future needs and wants.

Isn't that what their liberal teachers are drilling into their little heads anyways? (and 'by gosh', let's make sure they believe this is true when they sling their leg over a machine and interact with the environment....:rolleyes[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img].

 

I agree with you TASS. I only wish the issue was simply an access issue. IF it were, we would not have the battles we have today. Unfortunately, the opposition uses the bad examples to illustrate why we as a group have forfeited our rights, and as such, those public lands MUST be protected from us...

I know I am preaching to the choir here.. and most people know that the examples used represent a very small percentage of the whole.. but it is that percentage that makes the biggest impact.

Outreach and education, while making some enroads, is not eliminating the bad element altogether. I support stiff fines and confiscations if that is what it takes to get the attention of our wild crowd. Let's get rid of them...

While I do think we all have access rights to public land, I do not think that riding like a wildman on crack falls in that same category.