What is really going on in Michigan
Jul 12, 2006 | 10:28 AM
#1091
Pro Rider
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
I guess im wondering why the personal attacks here, I see Muddy saying " no wonder BB's single", ETc.. It's a political debate on the subject thats dear to all of us.
Seems to me, that IF BB's complaints are founded, and noone here has proven otherwise, then its a legitimate complaint(s)? Why not answer the guys questions and put it to rest,one of you guys man up here.
Seems to me, that IF BB's complaints are founded, and noone here has proven otherwise, then its a legitimate complaint(s)? Why not answer the guys questions and put it to rest,one of you guys man up here.
Jul 12, 2006 | 10:34 AM
#1092
Administrator¿
Resident Killer!
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men". Willy Wonka: 1971
Cigars! Earth ne'eer did breed such a jovial weed.
A Tiger Doesn't Lose Sleep Over Opinions of Sheep
Resident Killer!
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men". Willy Wonka: 1971
Cigars! Earth ne'eer did breed such a jovial weed.
A Tiger Doesn't Lose Sleep Over Opinions of Sheep
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 55,130
Likes: 5
From: Landrum, South Carolina, elevation 986'
What is really going on in Michigan
This thread is getting old and stale. There will never be a resolve.
I think someone should take this old horse out back and shoot it. =]
I think someone should take this old horse out back and shoot it. =]
Jul 12, 2006 | 12:09 PM
#1093
Trailblazer
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
Originally posted by: blackballed
Bottom line:
Literally tens of millions of drastically increased orv funding dollars are at stake here this year along with exactly who will receive same over a long period of time.
Bottom line:
Literally tens of millions of drastically increased orv funding dollars are at stake here this year along with exactly who will receive same over a long period of time.
Jul 12, 2006 | 05:21 PM
#1094
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
KTM,
55 PAGES of nothing but BS lies and misinformation from BB and another 6 years of his political 'cant make John Stears happy' no matter what anyone does and you wonder WHY nobody anywhere in the State of Michigan cares to answer any more of his BS?
Most everything that comes out of his mouth is either an outright lie or bad information and when we have his **** backed to the wall, he TURNS everything around and wont answer your questions anyways. He's as useless as a turd in a skelatons **** for anything related to ORVs in the State of Michigan. No matter WHAT answer you give the guy, he'll pick it to pieces,all the while, doing absolutely NOTHING to better things himself.
Wonder NO MORE my friend!
55 PAGES of nothing but BS lies and misinformation from BB and another 6 years of his political 'cant make John Stears happy' no matter what anyone does and you wonder WHY nobody anywhere in the State of Michigan cares to answer any more of his BS?
Most everything that comes out of his mouth is either an outright lie or bad information and when we have his **** backed to the wall, he TURNS everything around and wont answer your questions anyways. He's as useless as a turd in a skelatons **** for anything related to ORVs in the State of Michigan. No matter WHAT answer you give the guy, he'll pick it to pieces,all the while, doing absolutely NOTHING to better things himself.
Wonder NO MORE my friend!
Jul 12, 2006 | 05:45 PM
#1095
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
Just a REMINDER,
BB, it is obvious with just 5 or 6 years into this thing, you have little knowledge or understanding of the history of the ORV system in Michigan and that is just one reason you are not invited to any meetings by MMRC. If you did take time to learn these things, you may have an entirely different attitude.
You blast the "city slicker" ORV riding park for southern Michigan, that was part of P.A. 451, do the research. In fact, it went to court a few years back and the area we were seeking at that time was just minutes from your home. We will continue to seek a major riding area southern Michigan!
You blast the ORV board, everyone of those people on there are voulnters, don't get paid one dime except for the "Atta Boys" and the Thanks. I have yet to hear the first one from you! It is hard to even get people to sit on that Board because of the turmoil YOU cause. You give us all a bad name!
There was no ORV Board at one time, Engler trashed all Advisory Boards. The DNR took it upon themselves to have several. IF they had not done so, we would have had no voice!
You bash the motorcycle guys endlessly. Let me give you the straight skinney here. The motorcycle guys laid out the original trails by having them for event trail. When the law was passed to establish trail, in come the DNR managers and "stole" or closed all the event trail, made it permanently designated ORV trail. OF course, in a short time, events (enduro's) were gone and so were the people who did the work along with the clubs and many dealerships. Over 100 small dealers that were supporting their familys out of a "mom & pop" store, lost their livelyhood because of the DNR closing of lands to ORV use.A very large majority of the trail you ride in Michigan was laid out by motorcycle guys.
You bash us terribly for stopping HB 5343, (60" trail). Anyone, once they fully understood the ramifications of that Bill, thought there was a much better way of accomplishing our goals. I am sorry you failed to see the downfalls, but it was "very undesireable legislation". Maybe you should review it again.
The people were told, at an ORV Advisory Board meeting one year ago, you were one of them, "at the stroke of a pen, over a 1,000 miles of trail was widened to accomadate ATV's". Are motorcyle people complaining, YES to the point, they still want a place to ride that suits their taste. It sure takes the fun out of riding when a two wheeler has to jump the berm in evey corner and concerns about their safety. Most have to go to work on Monday morning. It is quite obvious, you have never ridden a motorcycle on a deep sandy trail or you would understand this simple thing!
Do motorcycle people hate the quads, only in your mind. Anytime we can see another motorsports rider out enjoying the trail, fantastic!!!!!
You bash CCC to no end. You obviously have no clue what goes on there and I am not going to tell you. Do your own research. I will tell you this, CCC is made up of 17 clubs or "Chapters" as they call them. If it were not for that group and their tireless efforts over the past three decades, we would not have anything near what we have today. If you cannot see that, you have to be blind! You rag on them and all the money they have gotten, sure they have gotten paid and the pay is so low it is pathetic, considering the hours they put in. If you had ever once worked on a trail maintenance crew, you would fully understand. Even in the Draft Plan, it is mentioned to increase the pay for maintenance. The increase may not even help because of rising liability issues and almost unavailability of insurance.
You carry on about this 25% more trail. Nobody but the DNR has any idea where this new trail might be and it is very complex. We first need to have studies to satisfy environmental responsibilities, that can take up to two years. We now must have assessment for "forest certification". In case you didn't know it, logging is a HUGE business in Michigan. Several States are under the gun in a big way for "forest certification". If we are not certified, our wood products are near worthless, putting thousands of people out of work. This is part of a worldwide effort for responsible in the use of forest. We certainly do not want one more person out of work in Michigan no more than we want to lose an inch of trail to "certification". One of our biggest problems here is keeping people on the trail and to do that, we must make the trail desireable to ride.
You often complain about the condition of the trail, the machine you ride has one of the longer wheelbases and wider stances out there, yours should be one of the best rides. If your looking for highway smooth, your in the wrong sport. There will never be enough money there to make that happen.
We do have input as ORV Board people, but little more than phone conversations and e-mails. Something else you have conjured up, so knock it off, if you cannot state from fact, don't state it! In doing what you are doing, you have become a real liability to the sport, contrary to what you really want to be, I think!
I certainly am not going to tip my hand in any plans of action by MMRC or any other group, or planning that is in process that I may know of, for fear that some "good samaritan" will go and screw them up and the project possibly never be repaired or accomplished. I will say, the future looks better than it has in some time and our hope for the end results to be much better than what we have today. These things are very fragile whenever you begin dealing with Representatives and Senators and other dignitaries. If you don't know what you are doing, have no clue on the big picture, don't go there. A few minutes of one person saying the wrong thing to the right person, could destroy 100's of hours of work by many people, several organizations and corporations! Not to even consider the thousands of dollars having been spent in travel, lobbying cost, office time, phone calls, and meetings.
You constantly bash me personally. Let me lay down this challenge to you. Since May, myself and many others have worked our butts off making some pretty nice gains for our sports. We were involved in getting 25% more trail by 2008, we have seen $900,000. dollars put into the 06 budget, the first expenditure of the $4.2 million of "reserve funds" that we have not been able to touch for years. The balance will be spent in the next four budget years. We have proposed dramatic changes in the ORV Safety program that we are waiting for the Director of the DNR to sign and the funds to be released. This program will give us maybe as many as 40 more training sites and literally dozens more "certified instructors" and the ability of teaching easily 10,000 kids a year to ride in a safer manner. A program that will put Michigan in the forefront of ORV Safety training! We have, and will, continue to work on Proposal Z, which will be on the November 06 ballot, which will prevent the "raid" of most every sportmans "reserve fund", from hunting, fishing, watercraft, snowmobiles, state parks and several others. Proposal Z will prevent the "powers that be" in Lansing from ever raiding those funds again, to balance the budget. The ORV "reserve funds" were looking very ripe to many.
I have accomplished the following. AMA District 14 Club Council, which you bash endlessly too, will earmark a portion of each members dues for the purpose of legislative activity. This will generate considerable money for positive legislative activity for the benefit of our members. By the way, did you know, we do have a ATV racing program within D-14? Over 100 events annually. In addition to that, had a good bunch of e-mail messages with the DNR informing them that 22 D-14 organizations wish to participate in this new Safety Training program in offering training sites and has dozens of people very willing to be trained as instructors, either in two-wheeled or four-wheeled.
As a little "side job", got one more township in Iosco county to permit ORV use on their roadways, have a meeting Monday for with three more townships participating on the same issue. Took the time to compile and send off a very important letter that is very concerning to those under the age of twelve of even having the right to ride in Michigan. Another letter off to CPSC regarding their soon to be announced recommendations to public regarding the use of ATV's by those under age sixteen. Answered dozens of e-mails on various issues from inner D-14 activity, to those wanting various information items. I did spend some time, not enough, on two other projects I am working on that I will certainly not disclose at this time, but if we can make them happen, it will be a HUGE advancement for ORVing. Did some work on preventing the possible closing of 27.7 miles of trail in Gladwin county.
I know by watching this site over the past few days, you have been very busy blasting "city slickers", AMA D-14, CCC, ORV Board, motorcycle guys and many other things that are nonconductive to our sports. As one fellow put it, trying your hardest to divide us as a major user group and making us all
losers. I first started riding in 1956, not in all my years, have I seen anyone with an attitude such as yours.
Can you tell us BB, what you have accomplished in the best interest of the sports over the past two weeks or even go back to May? I know a few things you have done that are detrimental, but would you please tell us, WHAT YOU HAVE DONE THAT IS BENEFICIAL.
? No side stepping here, no dodging the issue, no changing the subject and off on something else. TELL US WHAT YOU HAVE DONE PRODUCTIVE, THATS IN WRITING AND WILL BENEFIT THE SPORTS FOR YEARS TO COME?.
Myself and many others would be very interested in seeing this in your own words and supporting documentation would be complimentary to your response.
While your getting that information together, the rest of us will continue as we have been, making progress for the sports of ORVing and YES, we are trying to gain more areas for people who ride machines similar to yours in structure. We want everyone who enjoys motorsports to have the opportunity to "enjoy a great outdoor experiance riding the machine of their choice"!BB, I have more to say to you. You blasted ATV Off-Road many times, for what? Because they do not agree with your thinking, obviously, no others did either. Let me tell you, having been involved in this legislative stuff since September 16th, 1969, our sports could easily use 100 clubs like ATV Off-Road. A nice family club, very active members, they stay abreast of legislative activity and most importantly, they write letters, make phone calls, get involved in a positive manner, are very eager to learn and do share their knowledge. For a "young" club, they are doing a mighty fine job. Watch them once they get some seasoning. It will take another club a lot of work to be as "good" as ATV Off-Road and a whole lot more to be "better"! Sorry you don't see it that way.
You go on your "witch hunts", trying your best to find some dirt on somebody by requesting FOIA's. You didn't find any, did you. Again, you obviously do not understand how the system works. Nobody really wants to hear dirt, people want our sport to move forward, not be embroiled in petty arguements. All people ask is that they get the most possible value for their dollar spent, they want to see how it is spent!
We have far too many things on our plate for such nonsense as you are expounding, enviro's breathing down our back, forest certification, Kirtland warbler issues, wetlands problems, safety issues, CSPC recommendations, safety training. Then there is signage issues, grooming issues, manpower, efficent equipment and a host of others, related directly to the trail. Of course, money issues, never enough, no matter how big the budget. Then we have to make for more people happy, than sad.
Of extreme importance, we have to educate our own, to "stay on the trail". To do that, we first need enough trail to meet the needs of today and tomorrow. Too often, we get photo's, even some rigged, that show enviro damage caused by a small group of our own people. I get them stuck in my face, where we have spent 10's of thousands of dollars, ORV sticker monies, in damage repair, only to have it again destroyed. I then get blasted by noise issues, speeding issues, verbal assaults by ORV riders on citizenary. We have got to clean up our act or we will be history! Noisy exhaust have to go, staying on the trail is a must, consideration of other users of the forest, a must!
You carry on about the motorcycle guys, I can remember the day extremely well, was in 1973, we were battling fiercely with the DNR and legislators to even get a trail system established. We had a public hearing in the Law Building, right behind the Capitol, seating was 250. We filled it! The overflow went over the the Ag building, over 800 people in attendance. 185 people made public comment in one night, staggering numbers even in todays world. We got lots of press, most of it bad. Dealers brought people in by the busloads, yes they rented buses. The Governor vetoed ORV trail legislation not once, but three times! But we prevailed! We had more people make a public appearance in one night, than people who written comments to the ORV Draft Plan over a two month span. Today, we have 7 or 8 times the amount of people riding ORV's than we did then. You go figure! Think you owe the motorcycle guys an apology!
We will work together as users. We cannot afford to lose one person that wants to be involved in a positive manner.
Dick
BB, it is obvious with just 5 or 6 years into this thing, you have little knowledge or understanding of the history of the ORV system in Michigan and that is just one reason you are not invited to any meetings by MMRC. If you did take time to learn these things, you may have an entirely different attitude.
You blast the "city slicker" ORV riding park for southern Michigan, that was part of P.A. 451, do the research. In fact, it went to court a few years back and the area we were seeking at that time was just minutes from your home. We will continue to seek a major riding area southern Michigan!
You blast the ORV board, everyone of those people on there are voulnters, don't get paid one dime except for the "Atta Boys" and the Thanks. I have yet to hear the first one from you! It is hard to even get people to sit on that Board because of the turmoil YOU cause. You give us all a bad name!
There was no ORV Board at one time, Engler trashed all Advisory Boards. The DNR took it upon themselves to have several. IF they had not done so, we would have had no voice!
You bash the motorcycle guys endlessly. Let me give you the straight skinney here. The motorcycle guys laid out the original trails by having them for event trail. When the law was passed to establish trail, in come the DNR managers and "stole" or closed all the event trail, made it permanently designated ORV trail. OF course, in a short time, events (enduro's) were gone and so were the people who did the work along with the clubs and many dealerships. Over 100 small dealers that were supporting their familys out of a "mom & pop" store, lost their livelyhood because of the DNR closing of lands to ORV use.A very large majority of the trail you ride in Michigan was laid out by motorcycle guys.
You bash us terribly for stopping HB 5343, (60" trail). Anyone, once they fully understood the ramifications of that Bill, thought there was a much better way of accomplishing our goals. I am sorry you failed to see the downfalls, but it was "very undesireable legislation". Maybe you should review it again.
The people were told, at an ORV Advisory Board meeting one year ago, you were one of them, "at the stroke of a pen, over a 1,000 miles of trail was widened to accomadate ATV's". Are motorcyle people complaining, YES to the point, they still want a place to ride that suits their taste. It sure takes the fun out of riding when a two wheeler has to jump the berm in evey corner and concerns about their safety. Most have to go to work on Monday morning. It is quite obvious, you have never ridden a motorcycle on a deep sandy trail or you would understand this simple thing!
Do motorcycle people hate the quads, only in your mind. Anytime we can see another motorsports rider out enjoying the trail, fantastic!!!!!
You bash CCC to no end. You obviously have no clue what goes on there and I am not going to tell you. Do your own research. I will tell you this, CCC is made up of 17 clubs or "Chapters" as they call them. If it were not for that group and their tireless efforts over the past three decades, we would not have anything near what we have today. If you cannot see that, you have to be blind! You rag on them and all the money they have gotten, sure they have gotten paid and the pay is so low it is pathetic, considering the hours they put in. If you had ever once worked on a trail maintenance crew, you would fully understand. Even in the Draft Plan, it is mentioned to increase the pay for maintenance. The increase may not even help because of rising liability issues and almost unavailability of insurance.
You carry on about this 25% more trail. Nobody but the DNR has any idea where this new trail might be and it is very complex. We first need to have studies to satisfy environmental responsibilities, that can take up to two years. We now must have assessment for "forest certification". In case you didn't know it, logging is a HUGE business in Michigan. Several States are under the gun in a big way for "forest certification". If we are not certified, our wood products are near worthless, putting thousands of people out of work. This is part of a worldwide effort for responsible in the use of forest. We certainly do not want one more person out of work in Michigan no more than we want to lose an inch of trail to "certification". One of our biggest problems here is keeping people on the trail and to do that, we must make the trail desireable to ride.
You often complain about the condition of the trail, the machine you ride has one of the longer wheelbases and wider stances out there, yours should be one of the best rides. If your looking for highway smooth, your in the wrong sport. There will never be enough money there to make that happen.
We do have input as ORV Board people, but little more than phone conversations and e-mails. Something else you have conjured up, so knock it off, if you cannot state from fact, don't state it! In doing what you are doing, you have become a real liability to the sport, contrary to what you really want to be, I think!
I certainly am not going to tip my hand in any plans of action by MMRC or any other group, or planning that is in process that I may know of, for fear that some "good samaritan" will go and screw them up and the project possibly never be repaired or accomplished. I will say, the future looks better than it has in some time and our hope for the end results to be much better than what we have today. These things are very fragile whenever you begin dealing with Representatives and Senators and other dignitaries. If you don't know what you are doing, have no clue on the big picture, don't go there. A few minutes of one person saying the wrong thing to the right person, could destroy 100's of hours of work by many people, several organizations and corporations! Not to even consider the thousands of dollars having been spent in travel, lobbying cost, office time, phone calls, and meetings.
You constantly bash me personally. Let me lay down this challenge to you. Since May, myself and many others have worked our butts off making some pretty nice gains for our sports. We were involved in getting 25% more trail by 2008, we have seen $900,000. dollars put into the 06 budget, the first expenditure of the $4.2 million of "reserve funds" that we have not been able to touch for years. The balance will be spent in the next four budget years. We have proposed dramatic changes in the ORV Safety program that we are waiting for the Director of the DNR to sign and the funds to be released. This program will give us maybe as many as 40 more training sites and literally dozens more "certified instructors" and the ability of teaching easily 10,000 kids a year to ride in a safer manner. A program that will put Michigan in the forefront of ORV Safety training! We have, and will, continue to work on Proposal Z, which will be on the November 06 ballot, which will prevent the "raid" of most every sportmans "reserve fund", from hunting, fishing, watercraft, snowmobiles, state parks and several others. Proposal Z will prevent the "powers that be" in Lansing from ever raiding those funds again, to balance the budget. The ORV "reserve funds" were looking very ripe to many.
I have accomplished the following. AMA District 14 Club Council, which you bash endlessly too, will earmark a portion of each members dues for the purpose of legislative activity. This will generate considerable money for positive legislative activity for the benefit of our members. By the way, did you know, we do have a ATV racing program within D-14? Over 100 events annually. In addition to that, had a good bunch of e-mail messages with the DNR informing them that 22 D-14 organizations wish to participate in this new Safety Training program in offering training sites and has dozens of people very willing to be trained as instructors, either in two-wheeled or four-wheeled.
As a little "side job", got one more township in Iosco county to permit ORV use on their roadways, have a meeting Monday for with three more townships participating on the same issue. Took the time to compile and send off a very important letter that is very concerning to those under the age of twelve of even having the right to ride in Michigan. Another letter off to CPSC regarding their soon to be announced recommendations to public regarding the use of ATV's by those under age sixteen. Answered dozens of e-mails on various issues from inner D-14 activity, to those wanting various information items. I did spend some time, not enough, on two other projects I am working on that I will certainly not disclose at this time, but if we can make them happen, it will be a HUGE advancement for ORVing. Did some work on preventing the possible closing of 27.7 miles of trail in Gladwin county.
I know by watching this site over the past few days, you have been very busy blasting "city slickers", AMA D-14, CCC, ORV Board, motorcycle guys and many other things that are nonconductive to our sports. As one fellow put it, trying your hardest to divide us as a major user group and making us all
losers. I first started riding in 1956, not in all my years, have I seen anyone with an attitude such as yours.
Can you tell us BB, what you have accomplished in the best interest of the sports over the past two weeks or even go back to May? I know a few things you have done that are detrimental, but would you please tell us, WHAT YOU HAVE DONE THAT IS BENEFICIAL.
? No side stepping here, no dodging the issue, no changing the subject and off on something else. TELL US WHAT YOU HAVE DONE PRODUCTIVE, THATS IN WRITING AND WILL BENEFIT THE SPORTS FOR YEARS TO COME?.
Myself and many others would be very interested in seeing this in your own words and supporting documentation would be complimentary to your response.
While your getting that information together, the rest of us will continue as we have been, making progress for the sports of ORVing and YES, we are trying to gain more areas for people who ride machines similar to yours in structure. We want everyone who enjoys motorsports to have the opportunity to "enjoy a great outdoor experiance riding the machine of their choice"!BB, I have more to say to you. You blasted ATV Off-Road many times, for what? Because they do not agree with your thinking, obviously, no others did either. Let me tell you, having been involved in this legislative stuff since September 16th, 1969, our sports could easily use 100 clubs like ATV Off-Road. A nice family club, very active members, they stay abreast of legislative activity and most importantly, they write letters, make phone calls, get involved in a positive manner, are very eager to learn and do share their knowledge. For a "young" club, they are doing a mighty fine job. Watch them once they get some seasoning. It will take another club a lot of work to be as "good" as ATV Off-Road and a whole lot more to be "better"! Sorry you don't see it that way.
You go on your "witch hunts", trying your best to find some dirt on somebody by requesting FOIA's. You didn't find any, did you. Again, you obviously do not understand how the system works. Nobody really wants to hear dirt, people want our sport to move forward, not be embroiled in petty arguements. All people ask is that they get the most possible value for their dollar spent, they want to see how it is spent!
We have far too many things on our plate for such nonsense as you are expounding, enviro's breathing down our back, forest certification, Kirtland warbler issues, wetlands problems, safety issues, CSPC recommendations, safety training. Then there is signage issues, grooming issues, manpower, efficent equipment and a host of others, related directly to the trail. Of course, money issues, never enough, no matter how big the budget. Then we have to make for more people happy, than sad.
Of extreme importance, we have to educate our own, to "stay on the trail". To do that, we first need enough trail to meet the needs of today and tomorrow. Too often, we get photo's, even some rigged, that show enviro damage caused by a small group of our own people. I get them stuck in my face, where we have spent 10's of thousands of dollars, ORV sticker monies, in damage repair, only to have it again destroyed. I then get blasted by noise issues, speeding issues, verbal assaults by ORV riders on citizenary. We have got to clean up our act or we will be history! Noisy exhaust have to go, staying on the trail is a must, consideration of other users of the forest, a must!
You carry on about the motorcycle guys, I can remember the day extremely well, was in 1973, we were battling fiercely with the DNR and legislators to even get a trail system established. We had a public hearing in the Law Building, right behind the Capitol, seating was 250. We filled it! The overflow went over the the Ag building, over 800 people in attendance. 185 people made public comment in one night, staggering numbers even in todays world. We got lots of press, most of it bad. Dealers brought people in by the busloads, yes they rented buses. The Governor vetoed ORV trail legislation not once, but three times! But we prevailed! We had more people make a public appearance in one night, than people who written comments to the ORV Draft Plan over a two month span. Today, we have 7 or 8 times the amount of people riding ORV's than we did then. You go figure! Think you owe the motorcycle guys an apology!
We will work together as users. We cannot afford to lose one person that wants to be involved in a positive manner.
Dick
Jul 12, 2006 | 10:54 PM
#1096
Trailblazer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
55 PAGES of nothing but BS!
55 PAGES of nothing but BS!
Originally posted by: Motorsports
Sun May 14, 2006 7:30 AM
There is something new about 200 miles new trail for next 4 years, what happened to the 25% more on ground by 2008?
How many miles of trails will be closed for forest certifications each year?
What will this new 200 miles per year be? My guess is single track trail for the "me-only trail" crowd
So if you all that want atv and orv miles of trail do not start making noise about what trails you do want to the DNR and your state rep's, my guess is you will not like what you end up with.
Now my 2cents about these guys who will attack this post and start the personal attacks against me for posting this; These guys want the "me-only trails" they do not want to share, reread their posts and think about the reasons they say a 55" or 60" trail is not a good idea.
Sun May 14, 2006 7:30 AM
There is something new about 200 miles new trail for next 4 years, what happened to the 25% more on ground by 2008?
How many miles of trails will be closed for forest certifications each year?
What will this new 200 miles per year be? My guess is single track trail for the "me-only trail" crowd
So if you all that want atv and orv miles of trail do not start making noise about what trails you do want to the DNR and your state rep's, my guess is you will not like what you end up with.
Now my 2cents about these guys who will attack this post and start the personal attacks against me for posting this; These guys want the "me-only trails" they do not want to share, reread their posts and think about the reasons they say a 55" or 60" trail is not a good idea.
Originally posted by: Motorsports
What is this?
See just like I thought, the "me-only trail" guys are trying to get their own new single track trails, this must be why they are trying to get the laws changed to make it unlawful for quads to travel down their 24 inch single track trails.
What is this?
Parallel the heavily used trail systems with 24 inch trail
Jul 13, 2006 | 09:13 AM
#1097
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Just a REMINDER,BB, it is obvious with just 5 or 6 years into this thing, you have little knowledge or understanding of the history of the ORV system in Michigan and that is just one reason you are not invited to any meetings by MMRC. If you did take time to learn these things, you may have an entirely different attitude.You blast the "city slicker" ORV riding park for southern Michigan, that was part of P.A. 451, do the research. In fact, it went to court a few years back and the area we were seeking at that time was just minutes from your home. We will continue to seek a major riding area southern Michigan!You blast the ORV board, everyone of those people on there are voulnters, don't get paid one dime except for the "Atta Boys" and the Thanks. I have yet to hear the first one from you! It is hard to even get people to sit on that Board because of the turmoil YOU cause. You give us all a bad name!There was no ORV Board at one time, Engler trashed all Advisory Boards. The DNR took it upon themselves to have several. IF they had not done so, we would have had no voice!You bash the motorcycle guys endlessly. Let me give you the straight skinney here. The motorcycle guys laid out the original trails by having them for event trail. When the law was passed to establish trail, in come the DNR managers and "stole" or closed all the event trail, made it permanently designated ORV trail. OF course, in a short time, events (enduro's) were gone and so were the people who did the work along with the clubs and many dealerships. Over 100 small dealers that were supporting their familys out of a "mom & pop" store, lost their livelyhood because of the DNR closing of lands to ORV use.A very large majority of the trail you ride in Michigan was laid out by motorcycle guys. You bash us terribly for stopping HB 5343, (60" trail). Anyone, once they fully understood the ramifications of that Bill, thought there was a much better way of accomplishing our goals. I am sorry you failed to see the downfalls, but it was "very undesireable legislation". Maybe you should review it again. The people were told, at an ORV Advisory Board meeting one year ago, you were one of them, "at the stroke of a pen, over a 1,000 miles of trail was widened to accomadate ATV's". Are motorcyle people complaining, YES to the point, they still want a place to ride that suits their taste. It sure takes the fun out of riding when a two wheeler has to jump the berm in evey corner and concerns about their safety. Most have to go to work on Monday morning. It is quite obvious, you have never ridden a motorcycle on a deep sandy trail or you would understand this simple thing!Do motorcycle people hate the quads, only in your mind. Anytime we can see another motorsports rider out enjoying the trail, fantastic!!!!!You bash CCC to no end. You obviously have no clue what goes on there and I am not going to tell you. Do your own research. I will tell you this, CCC is made up of 17 clubs or "Chapters" as they call them. If it were not for that group and their tireless efforts over the past three decades, we would not have anything near what we have today. If you cannot see that, you have to be blind! You rag on them and all the money they have gotten, sure they have gotten paid and the pay is so low it is pathetic, considering the hours they put in. If you had ever once worked on a trail maintenance crew, you would fully understand. Even in the Draft Plan, it is mentioned to increase the pay for maintenance. The increase may not even help because of rising liability issues and almost unavailability of insurance. You carry on about this 25% more trail. Nobody but the DNR has any idea where this new trail might be and it is very complex. We first need to have studies to satisfy environmental responsibilities, that can take up to two years. We now must have assessment for "forest certification". In case you didn't know it, logging is a HUGE business in Michigan. Several States are under the gun in a big way for "forest certification". If we are not certified, our wood products are near worthless, putting thousands of people out of work. This is part of a worldwide effort for responsible in the use of forest. We certainly do not want one more person out of work in Michigan no more than we want to lose an inch of trail to "certification". One of our biggest problems here is keeping people on the trail and to do that, we must make the trail desireable to ride.You often complain about the condition of the trail, the machine you ride has one of the longer wheelbases and wider stances out there, yours should be one of the best rides. If your looking for highway smooth, your in the wrong sport. There will never be enough money there to make that happen.We do have input as ORV Board people, but little more than phone conversations and e-mails. Something else you have conjured up, so knock it off, if you cannot state from fact, don't state it! In doing what you are doing, you have become a real liability to the sport, contrary to what you really want to be, I think!I certainly am not going to tip my hand in any plans of action by MMRC or any other group, or planning that is in process that I may know of, for fear that some "good samaritan" will go and screw them up and the project possibly never be repaired or accomplished. I will say, the future looks better than it has in some time and our hope for the end results to be much better than what we have today. These things are very fragile whenever you begin dealing with Representatives and Senators and other dignitaries. If you don't know what you are doing, have no clue on the big picture, don't go there. A few minutes of one person saying the wrong thing to the right person, could destroy 100's of hours of work by many people, several organizations and corporations! Not to even consider the thousands of dollars having been spent in travel, lobbying cost, office time, phone calls, and meetings.You constantly bash me personally. Let me lay down this challenge to you. Since May, myself and many others have worked our butts off making some pretty nice gains for our sports. We were involved in getting 25% more trail by 2008, we have seen $900,000. dollars put into the 06 budget, the first expenditure of the $4.2 million of "reserve funds" that we have not been able to touch for years. The balance will be spent in the next four budget years. We have proposed dramatic changes in the ORV Safety program that we are waiting for the Director of the DNR to sign and the funds to be released. This program will give us maybe as many as 40 more training sites and literally dozens more "certified instructors" and the ability of teaching easily 10,000 kids a year to ride in a safer manner. A program that will put Michigan in the forefront of ORV Safety training! We have, and will, continue to work on Proposal Z, which will be on the November 06 ballot, which will prevent the "raid" of most every sportmans "reserve fund", from hunting, fishing, watercraft, snowmobiles, state parks and several others. Proposal Z will prevent the "powers that be" in Lansing from ever raiding those funds again, to balance the budget. The ORV "reserve funds" were looking very ripe to many. I have accomplished the following. AMA District 14 Club Council, which you bash endlessly too, will earmark a portion of each members dues for the purpose of legislative activity. This will generate considerable money for positive legislative activity for the benefit of our members. By the way, did you know, we do have a ATV racing program within D-14? Over 100 events annually. In addition to that, had a good bunch of e-mail messages with the DNR informing them that 22 D-14 organizations wish to participate in this new Safety Training program in offering training sites and has dozens of people very willing to be trained as instructors, either in two-wheeled or four-wheeled.As a little "side job", got one more township in Iosco county to permit ORV use on their roadways, have a meeting Monday for with three more townships participating on the same issue. Took the time to compile and send off a very important letter that is very concerning to those under the age of twelve of even having the right to ride in Michigan. Another letter off to CPSC regarding their soon to be announced recommendations to public regarding the use of ATV's by those under age sixteen. Answered dozens of e-mails on various issues from inner D-14 activity, to those wanting various information items. I did spend some time, not enough, on two other projects I am working on that I will certainly not disclose at this time, but if we can make them happen, it will be a HUGE advancement for ORVing. Did some work on preventing the possible closing of 27.7 miles of trail in Gladwin county.I know by watching this site over the past few days, you have been very busy blasting "city slickers", AMA D-14, CCC, ORV Board, motorcycle guys and many other things that are nonconductive to our sports. As one fellow put it, trying your hardest to divide us as a major user group and making us all losers. I first started riding in 1956, not in all my years, have I seen anyone with an attitude such as yours.Can you tell us BB, what you have accomplished in the best interest of the sports over the past two weeks or even go back to May? I know a few things you have done that are detrimental, but would you please tell us, WHAT YOU HAVE DONE THAT IS BENEFICIAL.? No side stepping here, no dodging the issue, no changing the subject and off on something else. TELL US WHAT YOU HAVE DONE PRODUCTIVE, THATS IN WRITING AND WILL BENEFIT THE SPORTS FOR YEARS TO COME?. Myself and many others would be very interested in seeing this in your own words and supporting documentation would be complimentary to your response.While your getting that information together, the rest of us will continue as we have been, making progress for the sports of ORVing and YES, we are trying to gain more areas for people who ride machines similar to yours in structure. We want everyone who enjoys motorsports to have the opportunity to "enjoy a great outdoor experiance riding the machine of their choice"!BB, I have more to say to you. You blasted ATV Off-Road many times, for what? Because they do not agree with your thinking, obviously, no others did either. Let me tell you, having been involved in this legislative stuff since September 16th, 1969, our sports could easily use 100 clubs like ATV Off-Road. A nice family club, very active members, they stay abreast of legislative activity and most importantly, they write letters, make phone calls, get involved in a positive manner, are very eager to learn and do share their knowledge. For a "young" club, they are doing a mighty fine job. Watch them once they get some seasoning. It will take another club a lot of work to be as "good" as ATV Off-Road and a whole lot more to be "better"! Sorry you don't see it that way.You go on your "witch hunts", trying your best to find some dirt on somebody by requesting FOIA's. You didn't find any, did you. Again, you obviously do not understand how the system works. Nobody really wants to hear dirt, people want our sport to move forward, not be embroiled in petty arguements. All people ask is that they get the most possible value for their dollar spent, they want to see how it is spent! We have far too many things on our plate for such nonsense as you are expounding, enviro's breathing down our back, forest certification, Kirtland warbler issues, wetlands problems, safety issues, CSPC recommendations, safety training. Then there is signage issues, grooming issues, manpower, efficent equipment and a host of others, related directly to the trail. Of course, money issues, never enough, no matter how big the budget. Then we have to make for more people happy, than sad.Of extreme importance, we have to educate our own, to "stay on the trail". To do that, we first need enough trail to meet the needs of today and tomorrow. Too often, we get photo's, even some rigged, that show enviro damage caused by a small group of our own people. I get them stuck in my face, where we have spent 10's of thousands of dollars, ORV sticker monies, in damage repair, only to have it again destroyed. I then get blasted by noise issues, speeding issues, verbal assaults by ORV riders on citizenary. We have got to clean up our act or we will be history! Noisy exhaust have to go, staying on the trail is a must, consideration of other users of the forest, a must!You carry on about the motorcycle guys, I can remember the day extremely well, was in 1973, we were battling fiercely with the DNR and legislators to even get a trail system established. We had a public hearing in the Law Building, right behind the Capitol, seating was 250. We filled it! The overflow went over the the Ag building, over 800 people in attendance. 185 people made public comment in one night, staggering numbers even in todays world. We got lots of press, most of it bad. Dealers brought people in by the busloads, yes they rented buses. The Governor vetoed ORV trail legislation not once, but three times! But we prevailed! We had more people make a public appearance in one night, than people who written comments to the ORV Draft Plan over a two month span. Today, we have 7 or 8 times the amount of people riding ORV's than we did then. You go figure! Think you owe the motorcycle guys an apology!We will work together as users. We cannot afford to lose one person that wants to be involved in a positive manner. ***Dick***
Just a REMINDER,BB, it is obvious with just 5 or 6 years into this thing, you have little knowledge or understanding of the history of the ORV system in Michigan and that is just one reason you are not invited to any meetings by MMRC. If you did take time to learn these things, you may have an entirely different attitude.You blast the "city slicker" ORV riding park for southern Michigan, that was part of P.A. 451, do the research. In fact, it went to court a few years back and the area we were seeking at that time was just minutes from your home. We will continue to seek a major riding area southern Michigan!You blast the ORV board, everyone of those people on there are voulnters, don't get paid one dime except for the "Atta Boys" and the Thanks. I have yet to hear the first one from you! It is hard to even get people to sit on that Board because of the turmoil YOU cause. You give us all a bad name!There was no ORV Board at one time, Engler trashed all Advisory Boards. The DNR took it upon themselves to have several. IF they had not done so, we would have had no voice!You bash the motorcycle guys endlessly. Let me give you the straight skinney here. The motorcycle guys laid out the original trails by having them for event trail. When the law was passed to establish trail, in come the DNR managers and "stole" or closed all the event trail, made it permanently designated ORV trail. OF course, in a short time, events (enduro's) were gone and so were the people who did the work along with the clubs and many dealerships. Over 100 small dealers that were supporting their familys out of a "mom & pop" store, lost their livelyhood because of the DNR closing of lands to ORV use.A very large majority of the trail you ride in Michigan was laid out by motorcycle guys. You bash us terribly for stopping HB 5343, (60" trail). Anyone, once they fully understood the ramifications of that Bill, thought there was a much better way of accomplishing our goals. I am sorry you failed to see the downfalls, but it was "very undesireable legislation". Maybe you should review it again. The people were told, at an ORV Advisory Board meeting one year ago, you were one of them, "at the stroke of a pen, over a 1,000 miles of trail was widened to accomadate ATV's". Are motorcyle people complaining, YES to the point, they still want a place to ride that suits their taste. It sure takes the fun out of riding when a two wheeler has to jump the berm in evey corner and concerns about their safety. Most have to go to work on Monday morning. It is quite obvious, you have never ridden a motorcycle on a deep sandy trail or you would understand this simple thing!Do motorcycle people hate the quads, only in your mind. Anytime we can see another motorsports rider out enjoying the trail, fantastic!!!!!You bash CCC to no end. You obviously have no clue what goes on there and I am not going to tell you. Do your own research. I will tell you this, CCC is made up of 17 clubs or "Chapters" as they call them. If it were not for that group and their tireless efforts over the past three decades, we would not have anything near what we have today. If you cannot see that, you have to be blind! You rag on them and all the money they have gotten, sure they have gotten paid and the pay is so low it is pathetic, considering the hours they put in. If you had ever once worked on a trail maintenance crew, you would fully understand. Even in the Draft Plan, it is mentioned to increase the pay for maintenance. The increase may not even help because of rising liability issues and almost unavailability of insurance. You carry on about this 25% more trail. Nobody but the DNR has any idea where this new trail might be and it is very complex. We first need to have studies to satisfy environmental responsibilities, that can take up to two years. We now must have assessment for "forest certification". In case you didn't know it, logging is a HUGE business in Michigan. Several States are under the gun in a big way for "forest certification". If we are not certified, our wood products are near worthless, putting thousands of people out of work. This is part of a worldwide effort for responsible in the use of forest. We certainly do not want one more person out of work in Michigan no more than we want to lose an inch of trail to "certification". One of our biggest problems here is keeping people on the trail and to do that, we must make the trail desireable to ride.You often complain about the condition of the trail, the machine you ride has one of the longer wheelbases and wider stances out there, yours should be one of the best rides. If your looking for highway smooth, your in the wrong sport. There will never be enough money there to make that happen.We do have input as ORV Board people, but little more than phone conversations and e-mails. Something else you have conjured up, so knock it off, if you cannot state from fact, don't state it! In doing what you are doing, you have become a real liability to the sport, contrary to what you really want to be, I think!I certainly am not going to tip my hand in any plans of action by MMRC or any other group, or planning that is in process that I may know of, for fear that some "good samaritan" will go and screw them up and the project possibly never be repaired or accomplished. I will say, the future looks better than it has in some time and our hope for the end results to be much better than what we have today. These things are very fragile whenever you begin dealing with Representatives and Senators and other dignitaries. If you don't know what you are doing, have no clue on the big picture, don't go there. A few minutes of one person saying the wrong thing to the right person, could destroy 100's of hours of work by many people, several organizations and corporations! Not to even consider the thousands of dollars having been spent in travel, lobbying cost, office time, phone calls, and meetings.You constantly bash me personally. Let me lay down this challenge to you. Since May, myself and many others have worked our butts off making some pretty nice gains for our sports. We were involved in getting 25% more trail by 2008, we have seen $900,000. dollars put into the 06 budget, the first expenditure of the $4.2 million of "reserve funds" that we have not been able to touch for years. The balance will be spent in the next four budget years. We have proposed dramatic changes in the ORV Safety program that we are waiting for the Director of the DNR to sign and the funds to be released. This program will give us maybe as many as 40 more training sites and literally dozens more "certified instructors" and the ability of teaching easily 10,000 kids a year to ride in a safer manner. A program that will put Michigan in the forefront of ORV Safety training! We have, and will, continue to work on Proposal Z, which will be on the November 06 ballot, which will prevent the "raid" of most every sportmans "reserve fund", from hunting, fishing, watercraft, snowmobiles, state parks and several others. Proposal Z will prevent the "powers that be" in Lansing from ever raiding those funds again, to balance the budget. The ORV "reserve funds" were looking very ripe to many. I have accomplished the following. AMA District 14 Club Council, which you bash endlessly too, will earmark a portion of each members dues for the purpose of legislative activity. This will generate considerable money for positive legislative activity for the benefit of our members. By the way, did you know, we do have a ATV racing program within D-14? Over 100 events annually. In addition to that, had a good bunch of e-mail messages with the DNR informing them that 22 D-14 organizations wish to participate in this new Safety Training program in offering training sites and has dozens of people very willing to be trained as instructors, either in two-wheeled or four-wheeled.As a little "side job", got one more township in Iosco county to permit ORV use on their roadways, have a meeting Monday for with three more townships participating on the same issue. Took the time to compile and send off a very important letter that is very concerning to those under the age of twelve of even having the right to ride in Michigan. Another letter off to CPSC regarding their soon to be announced recommendations to public regarding the use of ATV's by those under age sixteen. Answered dozens of e-mails on various issues from inner D-14 activity, to those wanting various information items. I did spend some time, not enough, on two other projects I am working on that I will certainly not disclose at this time, but if we can make them happen, it will be a HUGE advancement for ORVing. Did some work on preventing the possible closing of 27.7 miles of trail in Gladwin county.I know by watching this site over the past few days, you have been very busy blasting "city slickers", AMA D-14, CCC, ORV Board, motorcycle guys and many other things that are nonconductive to our sports. As one fellow put it, trying your hardest to divide us as a major user group and making us all losers. I first started riding in 1956, not in all my years, have I seen anyone with an attitude such as yours.Can you tell us BB, what you have accomplished in the best interest of the sports over the past two weeks or even go back to May? I know a few things you have done that are detrimental, but would you please tell us, WHAT YOU HAVE DONE THAT IS BENEFICIAL.? No side stepping here, no dodging the issue, no changing the subject and off on something else. TELL US WHAT YOU HAVE DONE PRODUCTIVE, THATS IN WRITING AND WILL BENEFIT THE SPORTS FOR YEARS TO COME?. Myself and many others would be very interested in seeing this in your own words and supporting documentation would be complimentary to your response.While your getting that information together, the rest of us will continue as we have been, making progress for the sports of ORVing and YES, we are trying to gain more areas for people who ride machines similar to yours in structure. We want everyone who enjoys motorsports to have the opportunity to "enjoy a great outdoor experiance riding the machine of their choice"!BB, I have more to say to you. You blasted ATV Off-Road many times, for what? Because they do not agree with your thinking, obviously, no others did either. Let me tell you, having been involved in this legislative stuff since September 16th, 1969, our sports could easily use 100 clubs like ATV Off-Road. A nice family club, very active members, they stay abreast of legislative activity and most importantly, they write letters, make phone calls, get involved in a positive manner, are very eager to learn and do share their knowledge. For a "young" club, they are doing a mighty fine job. Watch them once they get some seasoning. It will take another club a lot of work to be as "good" as ATV Off-Road and a whole lot more to be "better"! Sorry you don't see it that way.You go on your "witch hunts", trying your best to find some dirt on somebody by requesting FOIA's. You didn't find any, did you. Again, you obviously do not understand how the system works. Nobody really wants to hear dirt, people want our sport to move forward, not be embroiled in petty arguements. All people ask is that they get the most possible value for their dollar spent, they want to see how it is spent! We have far too many things on our plate for such nonsense as you are expounding, enviro's breathing down our back, forest certification, Kirtland warbler issues, wetlands problems, safety issues, CSPC recommendations, safety training. Then there is signage issues, grooming issues, manpower, efficent equipment and a host of others, related directly to the trail. Of course, money issues, never enough, no matter how big the budget. Then we have to make for more people happy, than sad.Of extreme importance, we have to educate our own, to "stay on the trail". To do that, we first need enough trail to meet the needs of today and tomorrow. Too often, we get photo's, even some rigged, that show enviro damage caused by a small group of our own people. I get them stuck in my face, where we have spent 10's of thousands of dollars, ORV sticker monies, in damage repair, only to have it again destroyed. I then get blasted by noise issues, speeding issues, verbal assaults by ORV riders on citizenary. We have got to clean up our act or we will be history! Noisy exhaust have to go, staying on the trail is a must, consideration of other users of the forest, a must!You carry on about the motorcycle guys, I can remember the day extremely well, was in 1973, we were battling fiercely with the DNR and legislators to even get a trail system established. We had a public hearing in the Law Building, right behind the Capitol, seating was 250. We filled it! The overflow went over the the Ag building, over 800 people in attendance. 185 people made public comment in one night, staggering numbers even in todays world. We got lots of press, most of it bad. Dealers brought people in by the busloads, yes they rented buses. The Governor vetoed ORV trail legislation not once, but three times! But we prevailed! We had more people make a public appearance in one night, than people who written comments to the ORV Draft Plan over a two month span. Today, we have 7 or 8 times the amount of people riding ORV's than we did then. You go figure! Think you owe the motorcycle guys an apology!We will work together as users. We cannot afford to lose one person that wants to be involved in a positive manner. ***Dick***
....and that somebody possibly named Dick not only originally started this thread; but has dodged the simple questions put forward to him in the past regarding childish secrecy and even "
who speaks for whom" in this community....
Are we to assume now that top cycle leader "Dick" has actually been speaking for Michigan atv community member "Muddy4Life" right on through this important atv-related debate that Freebiird (above) and these other cyce apoligists on this thread would just as soon see <u>go</u> <u>away</u>?
I have no problem responding to those continually questioning both my character and my love/concern for the sport....but my feeling is that I have every right to know who I'm talking to and <u>what</u> <u>they</u> <u>represent</u> at any given time when doing so. (which has been my argument since back in '99; when we couldn't get answers from our 'supposed' representative siitting on the <u>same</u> <u>damn</u> <u>board</u>).
Again...stand up like a <u>man</u> here, identify yourself (isn't this like 'dejavu' concerning these people's super-secret council?) and speak for the Michigan orv <u>community</u>.
Otherwise, stay the heck out of any and all debate concerning this critical juncture in our state involving the disposition of millions of dollars; if you can't stand to be identified with the positions that you obviously support while <u>crafting</u> same <u>behind</u> <u>closed</u> <u>doors</u> for the rest of us. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
Jul 13, 2006 | 08:32 PM
#1099
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
What a great job at sidetracking all of Dicks questions.
What a great job at sidetracking all of Dicks questions.
I don't know about anybody else, but if I'm Vice-President of the largest AMA District in this country....I'm picking somebody other than 'Muddy' to be my 'spokesman' for the out-of-control tirades presented by same in this thread alone.
Is the AMA really that hard-up in getting it's message across so as to try and slip this by folks when nobody knows Muddy4Life's 'real' name in the first place?
And pray tell why has this forum membership been forced to play this ventriloquist-like <u>game</u> with Muddy's posts from day one?
By the way, I'll changhe my signature below to reflect the fact that you two are both now evidently 'joined at the hip'...if you'd like.
Jul 13, 2006 | 10:03 PM
#1100
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
BB QUOTE*
I don't know about anybody else, but if I'm Vice-President of the largest AMA District in this country....I'm picking somebody other than 'Muddy' to be my 'spokesman' for the out-of-control tirades presented by same in this thread alone
END OF QUOTE*
Quite on the contrary my fat little buddie. Dick does'nt need ANYBODY to be his spokesperson.
If you were'nt so tied-up in all your misrepresentation of the truth, you'd know that somewhere around the 4th or 5th page of this very topic in this very same forum, what you seen me post on this page was nothing more than a copy/reminder of the same thing that Dick posted on the same pages some time ago. And just like than, you STILL did'nt answer a SINGLE question.
Oh,but we understand WHY, the TWINKIES are calling you!
I don't know about anybody else, but if I'm Vice-President of the largest AMA District in this country....I'm picking somebody other than 'Muddy' to be my 'spokesman' for the out-of-control tirades presented by same in this thread alone
END OF QUOTE*
Quite on the contrary my fat little buddie. Dick does'nt need ANYBODY to be his spokesperson.
If you were'nt so tied-up in all your misrepresentation of the truth, you'd know that somewhere around the 4th or 5th page of this very topic in this very same forum, what you seen me post on this page was nothing more than a copy/reminder of the same thing that Dick posted on the same pages some time ago. And just like than, you STILL did'nt answer a SINGLE question.
Oh,but we understand WHY, the TWINKIES are calling you!