There has never been any hatred by the light 4-wheeled community towards the motorcyclists here in Michigan (we all know where that has come from since day <u>one</u> of the three-wheelers)...just simple questions of the sort you witness their (presently "our") leadership refuse to answer here.
Let's just give a quickie little example here for the red-headed-step-child atvers out there who long ago solicited membership money under the pretense of 'thinking for ourselves' on orv issues....yet who deflected all questions of a 'political' nature ("we're not really about 'issues'..we really just want to ride and have fun")....until they could behind-the-scenes join a motorcycle club that would get them that <u>big city slicker riding area</u> these suburbanites wanted! (if their club leader kept his mouth shut <u>and</u> ignored all questions regarding Cycle Santa's new super-secret 'representative' council!!!).

After fighting with the DNR over the Public-At-Large position on "our" advisory board being declared "off limits" to anyone who rode an orv (another issue these cycle guys decided nobody would 'pick up on'; along with cut back/cancelled meetings, the loss of our official stenographer, no contact with the board except through the department and delayed appointments to the board ending in a 'quorum' not even allowed to be fielded 'when' they met)...I waited and waited for my fellow atvers to finally come to the realization that the most IMPORTANT position on (cough) 'our' board...was about to expire!

Take a look at the crap these hand-picked cyclists pulled here with the **help** (and this is very important here when discussing two-wheeled 'low impact' cyclists that greenies/DNR folks favor over 4-wheeled 'rapists' that both of these leaders despise) of state employees I just know ALL of you trust like your brother::

DNR website: Monday, July 26, <u>2004:</u>

Dick Ranney; Representing ORV Users; <u>Term: 3 years</u>; <u>Expires 12/31/2005</u>
Public at Large Position: Vacant

And here is what the DNR website looked like on December 22nd, 2005

Dick Ranney Representing ORV Users; <u>Expires:***12/31/2006***</u>
Larry Harrington; Representing Public-At-Large; (No Term Length Displayed); Expires 12/31/08

Can you <u>now</u> see WHY "somebody" in the department was forced to take away that little "term" column in this 'revised' method of displaying board member information? (sans any state official <u>public announcing</u> a "term extension" or even the denial of this community's opportunity to long ago apply for it while the state decimated our board)....and why these few 4-wheeled red-headed-step-children now under "Cycle Santa's" wing....we're forced to keep their mouths shut regarding all of this?

Look at the "Public-At-Large" position for pete's sakes....and the dates! Who do you think fought long and HARD for that position to so much as be displayed as being "vacant" (let alone availiable to orv users) ...beyond being buried for months in <u>past</u> meeting minutes?!?!
And why did the orv community (or more importantly, DNR hand-picked Cycle Santa) somehow accept our DNR's assertion that the delay in filling these open positions on this (then) decimated board...involved having trouble finding "Natural Resource, conservation and environmental applicants"....WHILE <u>OUR</u> OPEN ORV COMMUNITY POSITIONS WENT <u>EMPTY</u> AS WELL...YET WITH NO PROBLEM ON OUR END AS TO THE NUMBER OF QUALIFIED <u>DEADLINE FULFILLING</u> APLLICANTS?

Yeah, these cyclists Muddy met in Gladwin wantthe "same thing" as us here outside "Detroit" in the Michigan light 4-wheeled community....it's just that us "out-staters" quit believing in "Cycle Santa" <u>a long time ago.
</u>
Listen.... when you can't even step up to the plate or be straight forward when you **REALIZE** that the powers-that-be...who have hand-picked selected you..... are trying to pull something like this on <u>our</u> orv community <u>unannounced and over everybody</u>....you've lost what little respect "I" had ever left... for my believing anything you ever brought back from a discussion with these <U>same</U> people!.

Spin it any way you want, boys...yet just remember....there's somebody out here who knows "the rest of the story" each and every time you try and tell it.

Oh, and uh "Merry Christmas!" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Mr. Blackballed,
According to your own rules of engagement you are not supposed to be responding to Mr. Muddy's recent posts. If I remember correctly according to your rules you are supposed to respond to the next quiery after Mr. Busyriders original post.

Seems to me you were asked some questions.

 

Again, if you cyclists want to come on in here as first-time posters/members of ATVConnection while trying to overwhelm/chage the subject matter...go right ahead.

Yet the truth is getting out here regarding the American Motorcycle Association and their sister "ATVA" chapter's involvement in the ongoing behind-the-scenes disposition of this historic 750 miles of trail here in Michigan...and we aren't about to let you whitewash it day after day.

Hey, give me time..I haven't even been able to get through your AMA Vice-President and Legislative Director's <U>first</U> post...let alone taking on every distortion of the truth which followed it.(Your hero's term was supposed to expire next Saturday TOG....did you really believe you could just come on in here and delay us from ever talking about it?...hmmm?).

 

Mr. Blackballed,

I'd like to suggest you quit wasting time and return to responding to Mr. Busyriders post.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, calling me names or questioning my validity to post here isn't going to get the response your looking for.

 

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

HUH? I did not see where you were called any names yet. Just send me a PM and I can take care of that for you. I will also question what your posting is adding nothing to this discussion. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

I do have to ask some simple questions, now that I know about those strange dates that BB posted, how did Dick Ranney's 3year term change to a 4year term?
Who is Larry Harrington, and how did that Representing Public-At-Large get filled?

I will think that both Dick Ranney and Larry Harrington are both dirtbike/dualsport riders. If that is not the case then what is it?

I expect the same bashing and name calling from some of you as in the other thread I posted some questions in. Sometimes it seems it is easier for some of you to try to not answer the question and instead take it out on the one asking, when instead it would be easier for you to just answer it.

Please Have a Merry Christmas and Happy NEW YEAR.

MOTORSPORTS [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

I read BBs post 2 differant times and it lacks any real meaning to it!

Meaning can only be defined in a context, whether it is the meaning of an entity, an action, a statement or an event. Meaning is a defining feature of information, either information itself, information associated with something or implied.Meaning is also closely related to VALUE,something not many of us relate to when we see a post written by BB.

Something has meaning in the sense that it has a value, e.g "This action is better than that action." This implies that each action has a value, and the value can only be determined in the context the action is performed. The meaning of the action can be derived from the value of it, if it's a "good" action or a "bad" action. The action itself, in isolation, can neither be "good" or "bad", and is thus meaningless.

 

Wow, I spend a few days in the hospital after getting my leg put back together AGAIN, and I come home to find over a hundred new posts... You guys are awsome...

Just a couple items. First I understand BB's frustration. It is clear that there is animosity between the 2 and 4 wheeled crowds... So HOW DO WE FIX IT?

2nd, I'd like to refer to my last comment Dick... and play Devils advocate. I do not doubt that more trails are needed. I do not question the work that has been accomplished on putting together the infrastructure I suggested. I applaud that. But what can average Joe on the street do to make it better on a grass roots level?

3rd, now if I were the man holding the purse strings... and I asked the simple question what are you doing to maintain what you got now? Would I get an inteligent answer? I think I'd be wary to release more funds without knowing that it would be spent in support of a well thought out plan, and one that like it or not, included all the recreational factions. 2 wheel, 4 wheel, jeeps, hiking/biking etc.

I think that is the crux of the complaints, that many groups feel shut out, and not being heard. Whether that is founded or not, I am not going to comment on... but it is what I see from the outside. I wish I had a simple answer for you there...

I know that maintenence machinery is available from small center dump trailers and graders that can be pulled by an ATV, to small narrow tracked excavation and dozer vehicles as well. More often than not, it is th elack of manpower than anything else that keeps things from going forward. And that is where I see the biggest capacity of making a difference for average Joe. Again however, it takes a lot of coordinated planning to make it all happen.

 

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: DragginbuttExcluding the obvious things like using quiet mufflers, staying on the trail, wearing protective safety gear, getting trained and generally being "legal"..

Same thing those people are already doing. They can call, write letters, show up to meetings. More importantly, they can join a club and continue to do all of the above and add to those items, trail maintenance and related activities. Reason for joining a club to do the maintenance is that you need x amount in liability insurance and the State also mandates that an organization, not an individual, must sign the agreements. Of course, being in a club will get joe blow the information he needs to know when the next public meeting is, what is on the agenda, background information and so on. Being able to associate with your peers and actually do the fun things we're in this sport to do to begin with should not be forgotten about either.

I would hope the answer is intelligent. We, as the ORV Program, have a comprehensive maintenance program and many groups involved with performing that maintenance. We have a sign manual, regulations for use of the land and so on. Maintenance has qualifications and is inspected by trained DNR Staff to ensure compliance. Those not in compliance don't get paid and/or are removed from the program.
There are many facets to the program, but here it is in a nutshell:
To ride on the trail, you must have an ORV Sticker (DNR license). The money from that sticker, in part, is used to reimburse trail maintainers for their expenses and pay for parking lots, stop signs, trail markers, bridges, decks, trail improvements, etc.
The maintainers sign agreements with the DNR to work on the trails.
They perform a spring run, including deadfall removal and brushing back of limbs and branches. Regulatory signs (trail markers, stop signs, etc.) are also installed/repaired/replaced.
The DNR inspects the trail and verifies the work done - and the whole trail - meets the specifications in the handbook. Things are fixed as necessary.
The maintainers continue this work throughout the summer with at least one more complete pass before Labor Day.
Repeat the DNR inspection.
Assuming all was good and things passed, the maintainers submit their paperwork requesting their reimbursement ($54/mile of trail is current rate with $40/mile for Route).

Some groups also contract with the State under the maintenance program to grade these same trails. The grading equipment varies from ATVs pulling drags and box scrapers to 4x4 diesel tractors pulling elaborate earthmoving rigs on up to full blown road graders.

In summary, to answer your question, various groups of ORV enthusiasts in conjunction with the DNR and USFS take care of what they have by ensuring the trails meet a pre-determined specification as defined by the DNR. This includes general maintenance through erosion damage on up to grading of the trails.

You must know that there is currently a comprehensive plan for managing ORVs in Michigan. The DNR has had this for near 30 years in some form. The most current, although amended since it's inception, was put in place in 1994 under Public Act 451. It is currently going through a revision and update, with the hope for it to be complete in 2006.

We have a plan, it's in place and being followed, we are updating that plan and will continue on with following it's new (if it is new) direction to ensure quality ORV recreation in the State.

What things should be changed for improvement, from your perspective? Perhaps you can also expound on what part of BB's gripes appear legit and help clarify just what he is trying to fix (not that you are supporting any of his statements, just that you may have a different point of view).

 

Good post 2TRAKR. I'm thinking where there is smoke, there is fire.