KTM,
thats fair enough. But I might also add that there was a time when BB and I spoke allmost every week over telephone conversations. He does have some valid points,however,his method of attact has alot to be desired,thats just one reason WHY I dont speak with him over the phone anymore.

There comes a time when you just have to take another avenue rather than ''finger pointing'' all the time and this is just something he refuses to understand.

Keep an open mind,you'll be just fine.

Happy New Year,

Bill

 

Muddy, I guess that is where you and I are going to have to agree to disagree a little. I don't support a person's tactics, but I think BB's message and opinions are allowed and protected under our constitution. We can disagree with him, but he does have a right to have them.

To degrade and kick him when he rolls over is a bit much, and not what I would expect from someone who I have a lot of respect for.

Granted, there will always be persons who disagree with us, or our methods, or what we are doing... but I think what singles the successful persons out are their ability to move forward while acknowledging disagreements. That does not mean you admit they are right... but it does speak a bit about our leadership capabilities. (I acknowledge the history)

I think everyone here has a sense of what his complaints have been. Not all unfounded either. And it is natural to put up a defensive posture.. but for anyone to suggest that we do not have a place in this or any discussion that plays devils advocate or who brings forward criticism would be one sided. And I think the fact that many people are looking at the issues from many different angles makes the discussion stronger, and the results more relevent.

I think we all have a place here... and our opinions count. If all groups were considered equal with regard to representation, I think a great deal of this banter could be put behind and accelerated reform could move forward. At the root of BBalled's complaint, I think that is the number one issue he has tried to bring forward.

As an outsider nto involved directly with MI's programs, I have to admit I can see that there is a division between the two groups... and I just wonder if we could put this much effort and comment into bridging that gap, what we could achieve together.

 

DB,
your correct,we will have to agree to disagree with this one. There was also a time when BB even had me believing [to an extent] that ATVers and Cyclist in the State of Michigan were MILES apart with our belief system. Thru my own investigations and time,I found this NOT to be true.Granted,there are some arrogant cyclists who think the entire trail system belongs to them,however,this is in the very MINORITY here. We have far more snowmobilers who think they own the ENTIRE trail system thru the winter months too.I dont see any of this as an obstacle that prevent ATVers from moving forward.

I do agree that all groups should be represented the same,but you do NOT make this happen overnight. The snowmobile guys have been around this State and organized for what seems like eternity,the cyclists have had good representation since the late 1960s. Atvers are NOW just starting to go after representation and BB wants overnight satisfaction. It was a long and hard fought battle for the snowmobilers and cyclists to gain recognition when they first started,and now,WE,the ATVers are going thru the same start-up pains as these guys did when they first started.

I never stated that BBs opinions are not allowed in here. Its his method of attack that are often questioned and critisized. As far as kicking him when he rolls over? No,I dont think so. I did say he was an embarrassment to our sport and I meant every word of it.There are those of us that have spent our OWN $$ going to Lansing Mi to forward a sport we all love,as well as the 1000s of man hrs put into the same,and none of us care to see these efforts DESTROYED by somebody like BB. I also said I was glad to see him go. If thats kicking him when he's down,than so be it.

 

A footnote to any Michigan orv enthusiast purchasing trail maps from a former orv advisory board member concerning the 100 mile long Tomahawk multi-use trail.

You may want to ask around for an old DNR map which shows the actual atv trail in its entirety; along with the atv symbol clearly designating it as such,,,,or...
...go here http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/spatialda...v/tomahwkn.pdf to obtain a similar version recently revised to appear as if our machines are not even allowed there in the first place. (no atv symbol designating our right to ride it...nor the previously published explanation concerning what widths it is maintained to).

My copy of the third $18 version published by our former atv "representative" to finally show 'once and for all' where Michigan orv enthusiasts can ride and where they can't...shows the entire 100 mile system as being strictly "motorcycle only" with a few disjointed miles of route stuck in the middle.

I have argued the ridiculousness of allowing these motorcyclists to shut down this huge multi-use sytem through their anti-widening efforts and just plain greediness for seven years now.
Now that I have exhausted my efforts while growing tired of pointing out the obvious or unsuccessfully lobbying atv leaders to even so much as comment on this situation....it will be humorous to see if not only any of them demand that this publication be 'corrected'...but if they petition even their own DNR to do something about the other completely different current map or the massive trail system itself (I've been telling these guys for years that the DNR is simply waiting for somebody other than 'me' to open their mouth about this situation; getting this widening job <u>done</u> and this vast area <u>open</u> to others...as it should be).

As mentioned earlier...it will be interesting to see who demands what after these guys are caught 'once again' riding that two-wheeler doubled up and maybe a little to close together. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Dude I just looked thru 3 different maps including the one you just posted and no where do I see where it says that Quads cant ride there. Do you see the solid red line in the map you linked to above?? Have you looked at the legend below to see what that solid red line means?

ORV TRAIL - For ORV's less than 50" in width - Off road motorcycles and/or atv's

The one DNR map I have says Febuary 1999 on it. Is that not old enough to show the origional trail that you claim was changed.

I have the new CCCC map that was made from recent GPS data and compared it to the one that you linked to above as well as the older CCC map from a few years back and they all look the same. And every one including the one that you linked to above says that that trail is designated 50" or less which is QUAD width.

If your going to say that we are shutting the atv's out at least get your facts straight. Or at least present some acurate proof.


Oh but I forgot. You will probably just blow past this post because as you have said to me before..."Your words are meaningless to me" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]

 

As hard as you may try to confuse the issue here, "YZ"....let's get back to what this altered map is all about (a map that bears absolutely no resemblence to the "3" official versions that you refer to).

The only 4-wheeled representative of any kind in the history of this state to hold a representative office...is selling orv trail maps which alter the state's version indicating our machine's rgiht to go down that same trail. This map strips all indication of said trail off the maps you refer to and further cements Michigan atver's reputation as truly the red-headed step children of this area's motorcycle community.

Your buddy 'Muddy' won't get up here and question it...and neither will any other southeast Michigan orv enthusiast hoping to brownose this new Detroit riding area into existence at the expense of these 100 mile trails waiting to be widened/enjoyed by those outside suburbia.

Again, if you're a four-wheeled enthusiast who can't even fight for your trails to be published correctly...<U>by</U> <U>your</U> <U>very</U> <U>own</U> <U>leadership</U>....a concept which further encourages others in the community to actually use said trails and not be scared away by those desiring to keep <U>100's</U> of miles of trail mileage exclusively to themselves....I think you can see just wwhy I had to abandon this fight in the first place.(I've handed out all the 'strap-a-set-on' packages that I can afford).

We have already received word that any additional mileage not used for this city-slicker riding area; most likely will be in the form of "junk trail" (two-tracks, seasonal roads and basically 'routes') to satisfy the mileage balance pushed through by these super-secret representative groups and/or those hoping to profit from what will most likely be the biggest pay-to-play outside of the Silver Lake Sand Dunes.

Meanwhile, four-wheeled enthusiasts are out there every day paying yet another Michigan orv "non-propfit"... for a map inicating the exact opposite of the state-published right to access yet another 100 miles of their trail system!.

Send in your next arrogant motorcycle buddy, YZ....they haven't jumped in thus far....and for good reason. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Guess you can't stick to your own story, eh? Too bad you've proven to most that your statements have little conviction behind them.

 

Not to add fuel here.. just an observation..... First off, I am not sure what the motivation was for starting this thread in the first place. Whether it was for informational purposes or not, or just plain "patting of the back" I don't know. A lot of involved "Citizens" seemed to have jumped in immediatly when BBalled posted his initial commentary. Then the thread's originator bailed claiming the discussion was not worthy of his time.... Hmmmmm it makes me wonder even more after that. I acknowledge not being willing to continue down the dark path of character asssasination, and the willingness to come forward in support of a colleague... but again I question purpose. It could be construed as laying of a trap.

I really begs the question was this thread started as an attempt to silence the opposition.. or at least bury his argument in the sheer number of argumentive posts?

I can't comment on what is true, what is not.... I will say that I believe a lot of this is perception.. and that there may be some truth in the disenting opinions.. again depending on point of view. I will also say that this argument has been, and continues to be a personal vendetta between what appears to be 2 or 3 individuals.. and the rest of us are being led around by our noses. It sure is easy to find evidence that these same 2 or 3 will take every opportunity to go at it.. and unfortunately, this personal thing kills many good subjects more often than not.

Which is the real tragedy here.

I wish that the arguments would go offline.. and let the remainder of those that are looking for solutions to many complex issues to continue to seek assistance. Nothing will kill a website's hit count faster than a war of words.

As for Muddy's suggestion that the DNR NOT be responsible for the makup of the advisory board... I can agree with that, however it is difficult to say how this board can be constructed. Certainly voting is not an option. I would however suggest that all the various TYPES of vehicle groups concerned receive equal representation. X number for ATV's Cyclists, ORV, Snowmobiles etc... and the use of persons who can demonstrate involvement and expertise in their field be chosen. Perhaps a resume of some sort might need to be submitted.. I would also recommend that technical experts that are experienced in areas such as trail building and maintenence be represented. This may already be done as a mater of course, as again I am not familiar with the local make up... but it makes sense to me...

Remember one thing, thank your lucky stars that the local state has a program, and acknowledges that your sport brings economic value to the state. In many states we are not even acknowledged as even existing... so we get nothing in the way of help or hope.

 

I may have grown tired of travelling to Lansing and looking you guys straight in the eye while revealing what kind of arrogant ***** many of you motorcyclists actually are...but I'll never tire of the day-to-day issues that take very little of my time to report HERE; on a thread that not only documented what I've simply told you in person...but which continues to display the issues you refuse to comment on right up to and including today (sorry, Jeremey; your latest "I thought you left...because that's what we want" doesn't <U>compare</U> to actually defending one of your red-headed-step-child atv leaders re-writing multi-use trail maps into these "cyle only" versions).

All I did was walk in the store and report on what I bought.

And I guess it's just "unfortunate" (timing-wise)...that this purchase turned out to be yet another example of the manner in which many of our own suck-ups...operate.

 

Posted by Dragginbutt:
"...A lot of involved "Citizens" seemed to have jumped in immediatly when BBalled posted his initial commentary. Then the thread's originator bailed claiming the discussion was not worthy of his time.... Hmmmmm it makes me wonder even more after that...."

Most of these guys weren't members before they came in here with their politico b.s. and none of them will be contributing members in the future.

You're damn right he bailed....just as Jeremy did with this simple altered map issue and every other one of 'em when simply asked what they did on this "super-secret" Michigan motorized Recreational Council or even who served on it.

There's no need for me to continue pointing out what has happned here or what kind of people these guys actually are....but I'll be damned if I'll keep quiet each and every time I stumble acrosss something as obvious as this....issues which you can readily witness...shut their big mouths in a heartbeat.