[quote]
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
I can certainly understand why some people would not wish to get behind a proposal that would widen trails... Fears of higher speed, congestion, making trails too safe etc... but that is the <u>point</u> here. Trails built to a standard (And I don't care what that is) that makes them available to <u>all</u> the various riding disciplines.. <u>just</u> <u>plain</u> <u>makes</u> <u>more</u> <u>fiscal</u> <u>sense</u>.

There is no rider that relishes these higher speeds and there are no riders willing to to take more unsafe passing chances overtaking 'slower' machines than one I can think of in particular. As far as congestion goes...what a concept this standardized 60" trail DB speaks of brings to us for the future. Instead of the vast majority of our most popular machines being forced to close quarter compete with each other on systems bursting at the seams with tomorrow's eager users...this public land is FINALLY opened up to provide less conjestion in the future and an experience in areas that many up here right now would fight like a greenie to prevent.
This is our land, folks....nothing about it is "non-motorized" and there is certainly nothing about it that should prevent us from forcing minorities using 100's of miles of it exclusively...to either work together on reasonable width standardization....or get the hell out of the way (it's amazing to me how any group who has worked so hard at pioneering this sport...would want to effectively tear up their 'legacy card' over pure and simple selfishness).

"...And it is an easier pill for the authorities to swallow. "

Sure it is. These motorcyclists are forcing law enforcement to concentrate on not only certain atv trails with the highest usage rate...but ignore 100's of miles of lightly used trails (see the Tomahawk) where just as many violations per capita occur.
I got the chance to meet a younger lady recently from Mesick, a town right in the middle of the vast Manistee Forest....and chatted with her regarding the environmental damage she has witnessed all of her life off the many the two tracks her family often travelled. Now here's an area with few law enforcement officers considering the somewhat remote nature of this area and a lifelong orv user whose family rides every machine built since day one.
Who do you think she claims WITHOUT QUESTION to be the #1 destroyer of natural habitat in her forest community?
There's two sides of this coin folks...yet it's funny how one side of the coin continually claims that the other is doing all the damage....while at the same time pointing out how little of an imprint their machines...purportedly have!.(again, we've got these cyclists right now trying to buffalo leaders regarding even more "motorcycle only" trails in the U.P.'s Hiawatha Forest...yet do you see Muddy or 2-Trakkr up here or forcing the DNR to publish the meeting date on that one?).

"...Secondly, yes it might make things a little more watered down from the blood and guts trails that you have enjoyed, but it opens the "SYSTEM" up to more riders, and the recreational dollars that benefit not only the SYSTEM but the locals as well.... which anyone who thinks hard about it would agree, is a positive step. Imagine having locals who actually WANT to see trailers full of machines pull up at the local gas stations, bars, hotels, restaurants etc..."

Everybody wants economic gain here in Michigan...yet it is these 2-wheelers and their red-headed-step-child atvers who would delay this widening and the economic boom that would follow on our massive 'old' system. These majority maintenance grant sponsors not only want to make <u>certain</u> that their maintenance dollars don't disappear through the for profit privitization needed to properly fix and widen these worn out trails..but that any 'new' buck is made right outside their back doors at a pre-disposed area of their choosing!.
More riders indeed will be coming to ANY system that finally does the job right....yet these yahoos are simply positioning themselves to take a bigger 'set' chunk of that guaranteed annual funding pie....before anybody catches on that their crazy "anti-widening" stance....involves the same "millions out of reach" funding they on the one hand 'lament'....and on the other hope to to quickly jump in and capitalize on with this upcoming fee increase.
It's one heck of a lot harder to ever 'fix' what you excuse as not being able to "afford"...when you let these same people dilute future funding formulas with not only 750 miles of more trail...but hugely popular riding areas demanding even more attention/future funding...to begin with.
Again, it's selfishnesss; plain and simple....yet these people will most likely get away with this 'bait and switch' for the simple reason that guys like Muddy and his cronies helped these cyclists <u>do</u> <u>it</u>...instead of embracing this older mileage that God himself entrusted us with and who provided the modern equipment needed for us to sustainably maintain same...if we would use it.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: 2TrakR
"...The groups that BB is pointing fingers at and making all of these negative claims against are the _same_ groups that have worked very hard over the years to get our system to the point it is and they keep putting thousands of man hours into the system...."

Sorry, 2-Trakkr....your community tore up your "hero" card when many of the light 4-wheeled enthusiasts in this state realized how your leaders operate not only behind closed doors...but arrogantly in public at that. I flat out refuse to give credit anymore to those who have chased many a good man and woman out of this orv community for the simple reason that they sure as hell weren't going to travel significant distances to deal with pure arrogance.

"...In recent times these same groups have worked to open the county roads in certain counties to ORV use. This year it was Iosco, last year it was Ogemaw. This has strengthened their local economies and helped the ORV system immensely....."

The people working on these projects were but a fraction of what you witness in other states with much less mileage...and the reason why? Professional and hard working Michigan citizens don't have the time <U>or</U> desire to be buffaloed into believing that the only information they 'need' to know regarding pressing orv issues.... comes from dated DNR meeting minutes every 4 to 8 months or club meetings that require "approval" for admittance. (same goes for these atv club forums...why do you think "Muddy" is the only atver in this entire state up here?...becuse these guys advertise this conversation in their forums(?)...other than copying Busy Rider's FIRST post; condemning people like myself?).

"...We (as in these same groups) are working on other counties right now with the hope of increasing their "ORV friendliness". So, yes, we do get the benefit to both the ORV program and the local economies....."

It's pretty damn hard to make 'friends' with people in these counties.....when you do everything in your power to make certain that the word doesn't get out concerning the fact that your group blatantly KILLS the widening bills which affect and link these same counties. Hey, we'd ALL love to help you Jeremy...it's just that one has to finally take his mask off and publicly state what massive trail mileage should forever be deemed "yours and yours only"...before we'd ever trust you 'again'...one lick.

 

What I dont understand here is HOW someone like BB is always ready to blame the other guy for shutting down the trail widening issue ect ect ect and who has no problem coming in here saying so,yet does'nt have the ***** to get his fat *** away from his PC long enough to form his OWN agency that would support such a bill or idea?


There are 1000s of users that support widening the trails. If so your adement about making this wider trail happen,than get your fat *** away from your PC,form your own agency like the super secret MMRC you claim BLOCKED the widening bill, and get the ball moving to make CHANGE.

In all the years I've known you,you do absolutley NOTHING to make the changes happen to the system but whine and complain to others in Forums. Your time and energy could go to better use if you formed your own club with your own beliefs.

All two of you!

 

The people of this state have plenty of historical evidence to support the fact that working with clubs such as yours...is flat out impossible. We are not interested in chasing down those who choose to remain "anonymous"....any more than we are attending one-way non-interactive advisory board meetings as our one and only source of "current"...a venue where reports are made on what has already been DONE...with absolutely no public position taken on who will do what affecting our future between then and the next meeting.

Again, Muddy.....if you are one of our potential "carriers of the flag" concerning these widening issues (although we certainly "missed" your voice when this latest bill was being killed by the very people you support)....why don't you advertise this thread to others in your organization (how about on your forum?)...atvers who might just want to learn how both you and your club got to where they were?

Either the cat's got these Michigan atver's tongue or they've simply been told to shut their mouths (lest the motorcycle club they just joined not allow cycle Santa not bring them their big city slicker riding area)....yet just where are the thousands of users who, like you, actually support being the red-headed step-children of cyclists such as Busy Rider and 2-Trakkr? (or do they believe life-long cycle advocate 2-Trakkr simply showed up 'out of the blue' recently seeking to get involved in their atv club club...similiar to the time RR sent his board director in with club dues in hand...immediately after you quit him?).

The people you don't want reading this thread are being played, my friend...and the only ones who will benefit here (in the end) are those leading these non-profits downstate to Detroit and this new big buck riding area they will soon profit from....and effectively away from the rest of our old, tired and <U>worn</U> <U>out</U> already massively under maintained 3,000 mile system.

That's the way I see it; yet like I've said: advertise this thread to others...get them some background...and let somebody other than yourself or umpteen cyclists appearing out of nowhere on this atv forum....make up their own minds.

 

BB QUOTE*
That's the way I see it; yet like I've said: advertise this thread to others...get them some background...and let somebody other than yourself or umpteen cyclists appearing out of nowhere on this atv forum....make up their own minds
End of BB QUOTE*

99.9% of the 900 or so users in the ATV OFF ROAD forum have already formed their own decisions about YOU based on your past history,and non of them want to see anything you have to post,so getting them together to read any thread posted by YOU would not only be a terrible dis-service on my behalf,I would also lose the respect of the club member,something you would'nt know much about.

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As far as the trail widening issue goes? I have my OWN ideas and I will NOT point fingers in a public forum while standing around and doing NOTHING more but bitching about it. Im merely WAITING to see what happens with this 725 miles of new trail and what/where it is going,if anywhere? Than, based on my obsevations,will take the necessary steps to make recommendations for future trail advancements. If this means getting my own posse together to make it happen,than so be it,but I wont bitch about it and sit around and DO NOTHING about it.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...99.9% of the 900 or so users in the ATV OFF ROAD forum have already formed their own decisions about YOU...and <u>non</u> of them <u>want</u> <u>to</u> see anything you have to post..."

The last time I was up on a forum....Busy Rider's inital post here was posted for discussion alright...yet no links were provided on that initial page to observe what in the hell any of the rest of us....have had to say since!
I mean, c'mon...Bill; doesn't this smack of the same "we'll tell them only what we want them to hear" crap....that I fought for seven long years...before simply 'giving up'?

"...As far as the trail widening issue goes? I have my OWN ideas....Im merely WAITING to see what happens with this 725 miles of new trail and what/where it is going....Than, based on my obsevations,will take the necessary steps to make recommendations for future trail advancements....."

(lol)...For pete's sakes, Bill...this is the same kind of crap you and your "super-secret" boys pulled in your "representative" council when the update plan was being compiled by our DNR the first time!
Hell, I even waited for the 'post' club commentary period of this plan's groundbreaking unveiling to expire...then filed an FOIA request to simply get some kind of 'idea' as to just what you sneak-behind-our-backs clubs had to say about it....yet what do you think I found? (after paying for the search request up front).
Why absolutely nothing publicly stated as an organization from either the orv advisory board as a group or individually...nothing from ANY of the groups you now mention as being on this super-secret council ....and most revealing of all...nothing from the very group informing us that they would be the ones bringing forward future "representative" positions on the very crucial issues that this 25-year plan addressed!
Zero, zip, nada....heck, I've even got a refund check in the mail right now regarding my request for all of the major Michigan orv group's commentary on this ultra-important plan unveiling...because they could only produce something like 42 pages out of the 100 or so promised...and 95% of those didn't originate from major clubs...but were duplicated individual responses!

And now you want the atvers of this state to wait for "Muddy" to "study" yet another HUGE upcoming announcement by the DNR...well <u>AFTER</u> they have already announced same....while at the same time (and aint this 'deja vu') REFUSING TO REVEAL <u>WHAT</u> WE ARE "CURRENTLY" ADVISING THEM AS TO HOW WE'D "LIKE" THESE 750 MILES OF NEW TRAIL TO LOOK LIKE.... <u>IN</u> <u>THE</u> <u>FIRST</u> <u>PLACE</u>?
Gosh, Bill do you mean that you're going to finally stand up to both the DNR and these motorcyclists regarding the continued killing of these widening bills <u>after</u> the horse has left the barn...that is...if you ever catch her?

Again, I am pleading with every motorcycle leader currently attempting to convince our DNR (behind-the-scenes) that large portions of this newly legislated <u>massive</u> mileage be cut up into their precious "motorcycle only" trails...take this man's keyboard <u>away</u> from him and <u>now</u>... because he's just killin' ya, here! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Since your involvement into the politics of the sport in 2001,you have been nothing short of counter productive to many of the efforts of many hard working folks.We dont NEED folks like you sending us BACKWARDS anymore. You are just one of the reasons WHY we seperate ourselves.


Quote** WILL NEVER REVEAL "who" all the allies are in MMRC, some things in politics, you just don't share..."
"...Again, I will NEVER reveal 'who' our allies are in the Lansing arena...GET USED TO IT, the way it is.----------END of Quote*

I said it before ,I'll say it again. If you dont like being discluded out of this so called super secret MMRC ,than get your OWN association together and do something about it instead of pointing fingers at what we ARE NOT doing to YOUR liking.Except for a few ORV safety education classes on your side of the State,you've proven time and time again, to be counter productive to the advancement of our sport. Fighting Lansing is hard enough, we dont need YOU to be sending us backwards anymore.

 

Thank you for finally proving it, Bill.
This entire thread has revolved around the fact that Michigan orv leadership has historically (cough) "discluded" the vast majority of light 4-wheeled enthusiasts in this state out there seeking to gain knowledge as to just how we are represented by 2-wheeled advocates out there killing every piece of standardized width legislation or sorely needed for-profit maintenance program that has ever come down the pipe.

I suggest you start being less worried about these facts <u>finally</u> seeing the light of day....and more worried about this blurb from languagehat.com:

"...i did a boo-boo. i said 'discluded' means 'included' i meant to say , 'discluded' means 'excluded'. thankyou.
Posted by: prbudd at March 24, 2005 11:37 PM.
Response:
Interesting -- it gets 3,800 Google hits, not many but enough to make it clear some people use it as if it were a word. I guess if enough people pick it up it will eventually be in the dictionaries. What's odd is that there's a perfectly good word already at hand. Since you use it yourself, let me ask you: do you use it in preference to "exclude," or did you learn it instead of "exclude"??? (Posted by: language hat[/b] at March 25, 2005 08:05 AM)

We all make mistakes, Bill...it's just that your bigger mistake here in partnering with those whose sport is in rapid decline and possess very strong motives in attempting to 'own' and scurry these very important <u>multi-use</u> issues back behind closed doors....flat out <u>affects</u> the very same people more than willing to get involved in our <u>overall</u> sport....had you not.
These guys realize that we are but simple, conservative folk here outside of suburbia; people who demand that a man stand up like one when asked. Yet they are even more cognizant of our refusal to deal with any person who <u>won't</u>...which is exactly why forcing people like myself <u>out</u> of the sport....takes very little effort on their part(see above).

It's your choice, Bill...yet I'll make one prediction that I am almost certain will come true from one dedicated person to another who enjoys the freedom to speak their peace.
You'll be on the outside looking in with the rest of us...when they're done with you. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Orginal post by Blackballed


Everybody wants economic gain here in Michigan...yet it is these 2-wheelers and their red-headed-step-child atvers who would delay this widening and the economic boom that would follow on our massive 'old' system.

(same goes for these atv club forums...why do you think "Muddy" is the only atver in this entire state up here?...
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Your right BB "we" dont want wider trails so your 60 inch glorfied golf cart can meet me or anyone else on the trails at 35 mph. Push a differnt government agency to classify "your" golf cart as something else besides a ORV.

I'm also on Michigan Dirt Slingers as well as ATV off road and as a general concensus "we" dont want you here.

 

When a person see's the name BB,he can automatically call him the master of SPIN. There is NOBODY that can take the content of a post and SPIN it around to their OWN liking faster than BB,just as he has done with mine.Now I dont know WHY you are thanking me for?You even went as far as using the word PROVE. The ONLY thing I've PROVED here is what a pain in the *** someone like you is to the ADVANCEMENT of a sport we all enjoy,so dont flatter yourself.

For the 100th time,except for a few safety classes you sponsered in your area,please tell the readers of this forum,

1.What YOU have done for the advancement of our sport in Michigan since your involvement?