And yet we have ANOTHER outright LIE quote from our friend BB
QUOTE*
could go on and on how guys like Muddy defended this character [RR] for years; called me every name in the book for questioning him....then were forced off with their tail between their legs to form the quasi atv/cycle club they run now...yet I digress.END OF QUOTE*

Not a sentence of truth in BB's last quote. In FACT,it was ME that OPENLY questioned the leadership of the person leading that club in an OPEN debate/argument somewhere in my early membership that led to the developement of our new ATV club. When I left, many followed,when Jeff V. left 6 months later, many more left with him, thus we started up our new ATV club. This new club was not developed because of ANYTHING that BB stated against the old club,PERIOD!---BB must have been abused as a child because he PATs himself on the back WAY to much as an adult for things he has NOTHING to do with!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE from BB
"At this time"....what a piece of work you really are.
The ciitzens of this state were informed 2 years ago that they would be able to access a group of people finally bringing THEIR NEEDS to the DNR and others in a PUBLIC manner.
END of Quote**

Yet ANOTHER outright LIE. I was personally present at the ORV meeting when the developement of this group was announced and at NO time was ANYTHING of the above quote stated from anyone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A nice thing about BB is that you can always tell when he;s lying.

His lips are moving!

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"..In FACT,it was ME that OPENLY questioned the leadership of the person leading that club in an OPEN debate/argument somewhere in my early membership that led to the developement of our new ATV club. When I left, many followed,when Jeff V. left 6 months later, many more left with him, thus we started up our new ATV club...."

Uhhhh....Muddy...."Jeff"' was the webmaster who controlled the website on which any PUBLIC "debate" (and I sure as heck didn't see any with me kicked off/absent) would have occured.
My point was that I questioned both Jeff and this guy from day one regarding the same kind of behind-the-scenes shenanigans you and Jeremy are pulling with your involvein this "super-secret" MMRC.
I was called every name in the book by both you and every person in that club before you finally realized that the emperor had no clothes....and you know it.

"...this new club was not developed because of ANYTHING that BB stated against the old club,PERIOD!..."

Settle down, Bill....you guys were FORCED to start that club because every single one of the predictions that I made concerning your fearless leader at that time...came not only true...but (unfortunately|) rose right up and bit you in the **** soon afterwards.
The irony here lies in the fact that your former leader didn't want to lead people who 'disrespected' him anyways...while the "understudy" received the same non-profit tax benefits without missing a beat with his (cough) 'former' friend; nor having to deal with any more requests (ignored) for behind-the-scenes info....than his mentor!
You gotta love it when <u>everybody</u>, in the end, ends up sitting tall and sassy...in their own little "non-profit"! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

My comment:
"...The ciitzens of this state were informed 2 years ago that they would be able to access a group of people finally bringing THEIR NEEDS to the DNR and others in a PUBLIC manner.."

Muddy trying to defend why he attends secret meetings with anonymous individuals:
"...Yet ANOTHER outright LIE. I was personally present at the ORV meeting when the developement of this group was announced and at NO time was ANYTHING of the above quote stated from anyone..."

For pete's sake, Bill...you can't even go along with a <u>reasonable</u>, <u>simple</u> <u>statement</u>... that makes sense...without calling me a damn liar!
Uh, I was there also Bill ...and doesn't this really kind of drive home my point concerning how your cycle buddies have sat back and allowed our official stenographer be taken away at ALL these meetings...while the DNR is put in charge of compiling FROM THEIR NOTES,,,the meeting minutes?
What are you going to do now, Bill...explain to us why we can't access your silly group (if we even knew who the individuals were serving on it); while at the same time explaining why 'ol Busy Rider didn't happen to "mention" at this group's formation announcement...that all "representation" on said group would be anonymous ...and definitely meet behind closed doors ONLY? (again, what are you saying...that this "slipped his mind" while he stood there admonishing all of us for not getting together in the first place?).
You guys are really a piece of work...one lies...and the other swears to it!

 

One quick aside to 2-Trakkr and his advice that the atvers in this state go "back" to the very people who have refused to answer our questions previously.

We spent years badgering "our" atv representative on the advisory board to tell us anything concerning what he was actually doing on that board...frustration that built up to the point where an entire new organization had to be formed <u>because</u> of it. "If" that same man is one of your representatives today, as you have indicated...go screw yourself.

The last 2 years were spent hounding the other atv representative you claim to now be our contact on this secret council...another guy who continually refused to reveal even so much as who you guys were or just how <U>he</U> was representing <u>us</u>....resulting in the same b.s. dodging of the same damn questions concerning what in the hell has been going on for all that time up to and including <U>today</U>.

Again, is there anybody representing atv interests on this council who doesn't have a long history of taking same behind closed doors and with a holier-than-thou arrogant type attitude....in the first place?

You might want to make a note of this 2-Trakkr; because I'll only say it once....just because your group only allows the same kind of arrogant ***** into your little "representative" council that buffalo the general public just as efficiently as your cycle organizations do...this doesn't take away the fact that every person reading this thread now (and in the future) doesn't recognize the ridiculousness of how each one of these groups operate like there was something to hide here. (especially when the general public is privy to only a DNR authored summation of <u>one</u>-<u>way</u> no discussion advisory board meetings every 3 to 6 months or longer).
We're talking "trails" here, 2-Trakkr...not the fate of the free world as we know it.
"Grow up" and allow your kids something to be proud of other than daddy sneaking around "undercover" to make certain that "evil" people such as myself are never allowed to ask simple legitimate questions regarding the future of our resource.

I tell you...this would all almost be "funny"... if it were't so sad. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

Very helpful information, Sam and thank you.

I originally asked you about these meetings with the impression that they were somehting other than the "orv advisory board" term that I have been so used to using and even regularly attending. I also had a recent conversation with one of the principle members in the Michigan Snowmobile Association who was on a trail advisory committee with 'Dick' that we can find no public record of. (this is how I discovered that the snowmobilers were never even invited to be on this super-secret Michiogan Motorized Recreational Council and that they, like every other orv enthusiast in this state, had never even heard of these people for the two years they've been involved in killing widening legislation and refusing to comment on the orv update plan behind the scenes).

As I see these dates correspond with the "board" meeting and not the only <U>formal</U> contact these snowmobilers seem to have had in years with the orvers in this state (must be that cyclists don't want our atvers getting any 'big ideas' about the kind of modern equipment these sledders own/operate)...I've erased my response to avoid any confusion.

I appreciate your understanding of what was an honest mis-reading of your post and thanks again for posting those dates/times,

John

 

Oh please be serious. There has not yet been a time when you've only said something once. You made this statement hundreds of times and will continue to do so regardless of what you say you will do. Remember "this is the last time you will hear from me"? Yeah, me too.

Funny how your personal grief with RR now paints the whole MMRC as evil yet you don't know who was there. Nor have you shown us where MMRC was announced as a public organization open for your inspection.
Do you have a group to suggest that should also be on this council? Has any club or organization been left out here? Or is it back to you, yourself and your other online personalities that have come to be known in your mind as "the public orv users"?

 

SAM,
I would'nt do any of BBs dirty work with asking even one single word of any part of his questions. If he does'nt have the ***** to ask them himself in person or to show-up himself to the ORV meeting himself,why should you do his dirty work?

He's a master at hiding behind a P/C and making untrue accusations against others,but when it comes right down to it,he's nothing more than a chicken with his head cut off.He's going to tell you that he's treated SO badly in these meetings. A real man would stick it out in these meetings IF he thought he had any valid issues,a chicken runs and hides from his beleifs and has others do his dirty work for him. He has no beleif in what he prints in here,so why would he actually go to an ORV meeting and EMBARRASS himself even further?

Dont get sucked into doing his dirty work.

 

I can certainly understand why some people would not wish to get behind a proposal that would widen trails... Fears of higher speed, congestion, making trails too safe etc... but that is the point here. Trails built to a standard (And I don't care what that is) that makes them available to all the various riding disciplines just plain makes more fiscal sense. And it is an easier pill for the authorities to swallow.

Secondly, yes it might make things a little more watered down from the blood and guts trails that you have enjoyed, but it opens the "SYSTEM" up to more riders, and the recreational dollars that benefit not only the SYSTEM but the locals as well.... which anyone who thinks hard about it would agree, is a positive step. Imagine having locals who actually WANT to see trailers full of machines pull up at the local gas stations, bars, hotels, restaurants etc...

What many fail to admit is that things are changing... and gone forever is the old blood and guts mentality that we grew up with. Now days, you have to appeal to the masses, and work on compromises in order to keep what we already have... If not, it only takes a signature on a piece of paper to outlaw everything.. and then you are left with no place to ride. You get one locality to do it, soon others follow suite. And then you are locked out and forced to travel long distances to places where they are going through the same battles you just lost.

The intent is not to alienate any group or person. The intent is to open eyes to the need to join forces in attacking the real culprit here. Lack of funds, dis-interest in doing anything that means someone has to do any more work etc.

I have to say that I doubt the environmental groups need to put much effort into eliminating your riding areas.. because infighting such as this, and lack of cooperation and distrust between groups is doing their jobs for them...

Michigan's rider scene is going to suffer for it.... and you can join the rest of us in states where we have to drive for days to get to any decent riding because people like you and I can't seem to ever bury the hatchet. You can have a bunch of little sand boxes in your back yard, or you can combine them into a huge sand dessert that everyone can enjoy.. the choice is yours...

 

DB, I do believe you have missed much of this discussion. Let me try again. The groups that BB is pointing fingers at and making all of these negative claims against are the _same_ groups that have worked very hard over the years to get our system to the point it is and they keep putting thousands of man hours into the system. In recent times these same groups have worked to open the county roads in certain counties to ORV use. This year it was Iosco, last year it was Ogemaw. This has strengthened their local economies and helped the ORV system immensely. We (as in these same groups) are working on other counties right now with the hope of increasing their "ORV friendliness". So, yes, we do get the benefit to both the ORV program and the local economies. Thanks.

 

I also STRONGLY support in a MULI-TI use trail system and understand the benefits from having a system that everyone can enjoy. A system of this nature would be SO much easier to take care of once its in place. But some of the dirt bike riders keep using the same excuse over and over, time after time about the expense to widen our current trails from 50 inches to 60 inches. Funny thing I noticed in our last meeting was that not one of the cyclist seemed to have even ONE concern over what the costs would be to make some of the new 725 miles of new trail into a cycle trail out of VIRGIN forest lands.

I also am SICK/TIRED of hearing some of you guys tell me that wider trails are going to make things faster and more dangerous for riders on the trailway.IMO,thats nothing more than a smoke screen to prevent the idea of widening the trails in the first place. There are trail systems across the nation that are benefiting alot from their multi-use trails. We have the resources here in Michigan to do the samething,but yet we are 10-15yrs behind in doing so.

Im going to watch what goes on with the 725 miles of new trail we are SUPPOSE to get here in Michigan by 2008 and see what it will consist of OR if it even really happens?.My guess is that it will get shoved under the table the same way the southeast riding area got shut down in the early 90s once it was MANDATED that they provide such a riding area.


Im not pointing fingers yet,but im WATCHING this one REAL close!