Regardless of how you feel about our ORV Chairperson,you are out of State and are not really to date on the issues we face concerning our sport here. You are not the one that has spent 1000s of hrs examining issues/concerns related to our sport and one who spends 100s more hours traveling all over Michigan to face these same issues of concern.I do not blame Dick for leaving this forum and not answering any more questions.It dont matter HOW Dick answers a question in here that he receives from ANYBODY because we are CERTAIN that BB would come back at Dicks answer with some untrue and misguided response thats out in left field somewhere.This has been BBs method of operation since his introduction into his first ORV club back in 2001. BB has been banned from 90% of every ORV forums he has EVER attended,he's also QUIT or been kick out of 90% of the ORV related clubs or organizations he has ever joined. BB is not respected by any ORV organization in the State of Michigan that im aware of. Dick on the other hand is respected and loved by 1000s of users thru out Michigan for his acchomplishments and dedication to a sport he loves.

Why would Dick spend another second of his valuable time answering anymore questions in here when we know ANY answer he gives will be challenged with untrue and mis-guided statements from BB?Its BBs motive,its what he joins these forums for,and Dick wants no part of it.I dont blame him for his non-response.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...Regardless of how you feel about our ORV Chairperson,you are out of State and are not really to date on the issues we face concerning our sport here...."

If anybody took the time to read this thread...they are certainly up to date. Busy Rider felt enough about that very subject (sans any responsibility felt on his part to stay in here when the truth got thrown back in his face) to START this thread in the first place. Where DB or anyone else up here "lives" has nothing to do with the difference between right/wrong and who youi decide to attend secret meetings with. Please give us a break.

"...one that has spent 1000s of hrs examining issues/concerns related to our sport and one who spends 100s more hours traveling all over Michigan to face these same issues of concern..."

If that man spent even "one' of those hours making certain that his contact info was prominently displayed on the DNR's website (like our snowmobiler members do) or maybe even explaining why he feels the need to gather people like yourself "anonymously" around him to represent the rest of us (not to mention a dozen other questuions we've been asking him for years)..the orving public would probably give him credit for the effort.
Yet when your efforts include not only ignoring these multitude of questions...but off-hand killing these widening bills allowing us to finally lift our heads high in relation to properly fixing the damage we do to this sytem each and every day (both on and OFF of it)....he's certainly not getting any "letter of appreciation" from me.

"...Do not blame Dick for leaving this forum and not answering any more questions.It dont matter HOW Dick answers a question in here that he receives from ANYBODY because we are CERTAIN that BB would come back at Dicks answer with some untrue and misguided response thats out in left field somewhere...."


If you're now evidently Busy rider's "spokesman" here, Muddy....then please pray tell point out where I have utterred one thing on this forum that wasn't true. Unfortunately, the truth eventually causes those who choose to meet/legislate behind closed doors...to not be shown in necessarily a very 'favorable' light. This is exactly why you will find nothing but atv riding motorcycle 'apoligists' left in the remainder of this conversation and why we all wonder why you would become such a person..in the first place..

"...This has been BBs method of operation since his introduction into his first ORV club back in 2001...."

Welllll....actually Bill, that was a cold day in the winter of 1999 when I first met the atv president you formally adored; the manwho immediately began informing me of all the "preferrential benefits" and "original member discounts" that you would be enjoying and that I wouldn't.
After I simply stood up and said that this was "b.s." (I'm standing in a parking lot in detroit surrounded by Bill and a bunch of other people idon't know)...I'll never forget what happened.(lol)!
These people actually surrounded this guy to the point where his eyes got HUGE and started to dance back and forth....finally uttering the now-famous phrase 'welll, I...uh...had to tell them (these original members)...something!!!...by god we'll...uh... 'abandon' the program! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Again, I will never forget the smart-**** remarks directed my way directly after this change of heart nor the hateful glances of those obviously there before "I" was..yet I feel the same way about those kind of things that I do now.
If you want to call me a liar.... then damn well prove it...and if you want to meet behind closed doors regarding MY resource.....then damn well don't be surprised when I come to knock the damn thing down and walk <u>right</u> <u>on</u> <u>through</u> it.

Ran out of time....but have a good day! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] (Again, Bill...are you sure...you don't want to hightail it and run like your cycle buddies did when this bogus map and widening trails v.s. building big city slicker venues came up....because if you keep trying to disparage my character here and not answer the simple questions put forward to the folks you evidently now 'speak' for ...I've got plenty MORE stories where that one, came from!) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

I dont have time to answer your nonsense responses either. And I never even met RR until Dec 1st of 2000 and our first meeting with him was AFTER that date[so much for our 1999 meeting huh]. Non the less,I have nothing more to say to you because as has been PROVED on MANY other forums before this,you add NOTHING but consistant criticism to anything you look at and everyone from many of the DNR on down to the moderators of most forums cant stand you.

Have a good life all by yourself.

 

The only thing I recall about the first day I met you and the second you gave me that dirty look after dashing all hopes of you city boys forming a sub-group within that club...was that my membership card read (I think) January of '99...certainly well before the "2000" you claimed above. If I am wrong here, I apoligize (yet the story itself pretty much ilustrates who I've had to deal witrh here in Michigan for all these years anyways).

Hey, don't go, Bill...you never told us about your super-secret "MMRC" meeting this weekend!

What did those mean motorcyclists do when you got there....take your keyboard away.....as I suggested? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

If there were thousands of users riding anything that had more than 2 wheels who even knew who Dick was...I wouldn't care if they loved OR hated him...just that they knew he was promoting the kind of super-secret b.s. that you see clearly exhibited in my signature below.
As for anybody respecting little 'ol me?...while I could care less; this probably stems from the fact that I have been pretty much the only one questioning any of this over the past 7 years...and if I took somebody's money under the pretense of listening/being availiable more than Dick has been?..."I" wouldn't feel very comfortable looking me in the eye either. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Bogus map: Your complaint was "the map says you can't take an ATV down it". Proven not true by everyone including yourself. You want to make an issue of it, sure, and I understand your need to find _something_ to sensationalize. You've made it clear you have personal differences with the leader of Michigan ATV Association, the same person who produced the map you were complaining of; it's clear you have a grudge against them and are using this as just another stone to throw.

Widening trails: You want it. DB wants it. I don't. Neither do the groups I represent. Nor do most others that I've made contact with. I enjoyed DB's challenge to Dick to come out here and embrace 60" trail as if that was the all encompassing solution. It's not. ATV Offroad Club of Michigan even did a members-only poll to see if their club wanted 60" trails or not; the majority did not want such items.

Southeast Michigan riding area: While you like to use this as a reason to discredit the majority of our population citing greed and arrogance, it's really a non-issue. People want a place to ride close to home. So do I. People will ride close to home if they can, the Mounds riding area proves this by it's high usage rates. If we could provide a close to SE Michigan riding area, that would be a good thing to do. I am not aware of it happening any time soon. A plan to put such an item together was part of the original trail system plans back in the early 90s and was even in the legislation at the time. It's unfortunate such an area has not been built yet. It's also unfortunate you try to vilify anyone who wants such an area.

Yes, MMRC did have a meeting this week. MMRC, itself, does not exist as a legal entity at this time. It's just a title given to a group of representatives of some of the major motorized recreation groups. That is why the DNR has "not heard of them" nor do they "have a web site". Maybe someday they will; then again maybe they will stay informal just to give you grief.
MMRC provides an opportunity for groups such as AMA D-14, Cycle Conservation Club, Michigan ATV Association, ATV OffRoad Club of Michigan, Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive and others communicate and share ideas and form common goals. What better way to get everyone together and share dialog?
Why Dick can't/won't tell you who is at the MMRC meetings? Pretty simple as everyone there is a representative from their respective organization yet that person could be somebody different at the next informal meeting. I know you'd rather see some deep dark secret and I'm also sure you'll try very hard to spin this off into some other ill-intentioned direction, but there you go.
MMRC is not a public meeting, but you can have representation on it by being a member of, and communicating through, one of the involved organizations. Of course, Stears, you personally can't do any of this as you've separated yourself from all of these groups.

Now, if you are not a member of any of the groups supporting and fighting for ORVs in the State, you have no representation outside of yourself. You have no say, you speak for NOONE but yourself. Keep that last bit in mind the next time you demand anyone else answer to you or "other Users". If you want to know who was at the MMRC meeting and what was discussed, then just call up one of the organizations you belong to and find out.

Man, sure seems like an awful lot of posts from you since you made such a statement back in December.

 

Jeramey,
talk about putting a bullet directly in his heart with that last post!

I could'nt have said it better myself.

 

[quote]
[i]Originally posted by: 2TrakR
"...Your complaint was "the map says you can't take an ATV down it". Proven not true by everyone including yourself. You want to make an issue of it, sure, and I understand your need to find _something_ to sensationalize...."

A private individual is publuishing/SELLING maps that not only do not resemble (in the least) our state's official version distributed...but indicate your machine of preferrence to be the only orv allowed down this massive 100 mile mileage. You can 'spin' this all you would like; yet it is indeed "sensational" when a former orv advisory board member and atv club leader takes a 50" trail off of the official Michigan DNR map...when the the time comes to simply <u>copy</u> same...instead of trying to re-create then hawk his own version. .

"....You've made it clear you have personal differences with the leader of Michigan ATV Association, the same person who produced the map you were complaining of; it's clear you have a grudge against them and are using this as just another stone to throw...."

I joined a club some time ago which consisted of a guy, his wife and his brother-in-law..who I discovered sometime later..really weren't to 'keen" about even holding simple elections or allowing just "anybody" to attend their meetings without "clearance" (kind of sounds like the MMRC, doesn't it!) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]. While serving on the board; we discovered that he certainly satiisfied the one condition our DNR seems to like in "our" representatives and their hand-picked members...keep your mouth shut and ignore all questionsas to what you do here.(this guy even had his own webmaster to eliminate anybody who dared ask who or what he was representing).
I could go on and on how guys like Muddy defended this character for years; called me every name in the book for questioning him....then were forced off with their tail between their legs to form the quasi atv/cycle club they run now...yet I digress.
No stones thrown here....just another story involving Michigan orv leaders running "non-profits" who don't like people asking questions of them regarding the people's resource they are overseeing. Wish it were more 'complicated' than that...yet it isn't.

"....Widening trails: You want it. DB wants it. I don't. Neither do the groups I <u>represent</u>..."

Whoa there....you are certainly entitled to your opinion, my friend...yet the $64,000 unanswered question being asked multiple times here of not only you, but Muddy and certaintly "Dick"....is who in the hell DO you represent...and in what manner?
We've already heard from cycle Dick that any major decisions that are made, the super-secret MMRC makes them...and that the MMRC is heavily involved in killing widening bills thanks to the atver's website...but you bring up a good point.
Who DOES young Jeremy represent....and where can we go to see him in action?
The only information regarding what is decided behind closed doors here in Michigan comes 4 to 8 months AFTER those decisions are made...and in the form of summarized meetings penned by a DNR employee.
Are you now telling us that not only do you "represent" others...but that you are coming out of the closet to actually reveal who sits in those meetings with you?

"...I enjoyed DB's challenge to Dick to come out here and embrace 60" trail as if that was the all encompassing solution.It is not..."

You can put words in DB's mouth all you'd like...yet the man simply asked this major player in Michigan orv issues what he felt about 60" trails on a 3,000 mile 50" (and much narrower) trail system that can't support the type of modern equipment needed to sustainably maintain/repair it. We are very sorry that the advent of this modern equipment may indeed spell the end of your group's grip on the majority of this maintenance money...and that the notion of 2-wheeled orvs deserving exclusive trails will soon be demolished by the desperate future need for this safe mileage very soon...yet our concern involves that when this happens?...your group doesn't make the mistake of telling us to all go to hell; revealing the true "uniters" that you have always been. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

"....ATV Offroad Club of Michigan even did a members-only poll to see if their club wanted 60" trails or not; the majority did not want such items..."

Why isn't that lovely!!!
Now when "I" joined those boys after witnessing their ***** handed to them regarding their former leader's refusal to answer <u>that</u> <u>same</u> question and many others...they were adamant in their refusal to have such an opinion on anything approaching that kind of far-thinking ideology!
Funny, if I had known that these guys were all about keeping things exactly the way that they have always been and sucking up to you guys on the side was evidently paramount on their agenda...maybe I wouldn't of sent in my money to them! (since you're now a member...why don't you suggest that this club put said poll on their membership form..you know, to sort of avoid the kind of "confusion" I experienced when thinking I was actually joining an "atv" club).
Again, if any atv club in Michigan is PROUD of sucking up to motorcyclists by joining their organization or fighting to keep modern equipment OFF of the trail system...please don't make me wait 7 years to have a motorcyclist announce it.

"....Southeast Michigan riding area: While you like to use this as a reason to discredit the majority of our population citing greed and arrogance, it's really a non-issue...."

Any time Detroiters attempt to take business away from those already providing a service through an underfunded public resource...those of outside your big city lights call 'em as we see 'em. You folks are discrediting yourselves by using the "expense" excuse involving the proper widening and maintenance of this "old" system (even insisting that certain trails should be shut down for 'study' and new ones incredibly built right beside them)...while at the same time hoping to build something outside your own back doors that would naturally draw the funding/numbers away from what we are responsible for presently.

"...People want a place to ride close to home. So do I. People will ride close to home if they can, the Mounds riding area proves this by it's high usage rates..."

I want the Allegan forest opened up someday and a pressure washer for Christmas....yet "I" realize that there are an unprecedented 3,000 miles of trail out there that need our attention much more than nice graded trails outside my or your back door. I'm really beginning to think that this is a "regional" difference concerning these differing attitudes on environmental responsibility v.s. "convenience"...yet I'm not certain that it also includes your area's overwhelming penchant for liberal leaning thinking v.s. my area's for just the opposite.
One thing we DO know is that the "high usage rate" you mention above concerning the opening of your new system without actually fixing the old....is a term that will <u>forever</u> be used to draw funds away from the old (sob)"hard to get to" system and into many of your fellow "city boy's" back pockets. (there are not many manufacturer sponsored events happening 'up north' involving atvs on our nasty old "raped" system...yet watch the semi-trailers roll in and the money flow here in Michigan once 'city boy' opens up his new place complete with viewing stand and clubhouse).

"...If we could provide a close to SE Michigan riding area, that would be a good thing to do. I am not aware of it happening any time soon. A plan to put such an item together was part of the original trail system plans back in the early 90s and was even in the legislation at the time. It's unfortunate such an area has not been built yet. It's also unfortunate you try to vilify anyone who wants such an area....."

Don't b.s. us with this "oh, by the way, we've come up with 750 miles of trail that the DNR has been forced to lay down....but we assure you...none of it... has been proposed near Detroit!
If you're so damn worried about being "villified' concerning where all this new trail mileage will be located...then quit acting like a bunch of arrogant ***** concerning the right for a legitimate **PUBLIC** discussion concerning the disposition of same. By the way, I "villify" those who put a price tag on fixing the original system we have now as "too high"....while at the same time lobbying for yet more mileage that they won't even discuss the disposition or maintenance of ...any more than the old.

"...Yes, MMRC did have a meeting this week...."

Oh pray tell and pretty please inform us as to who was there and what was said! (Oh, yeah, I forgot...see my signature [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]).

"...MMRC, itself, does not exist as a legal entity at this time. It's just a title given to a group of representatives of some of the major motorized recreation groups. That is why the DNR has "not heard of them" nor do they "have a web site"...."

(lol) "At this time"....what a piece of work you really are.
The ciitzens of this state were informed 2 years ago that they would be able to access a group of people finally bringing THEIR NEEDS to the DNR and others in a PUBLIC manner.
2 years later...we get some cyclistup here on the web trying to explain "why" the DNR has never even so much as heard of this group and that its members actually need to sneak around conducting our business with big bags over their heads.
Pretty damn impressive, Jeremy...

"...Maybe someday they will; then again maybe they will stay informal just to give you grief...."

If after 2 years....you're all still acting like little children in relation to revealing your identities; let alone the agendas you try to pass of as the "public's"...I'm not sure that announcing you now "exist' will calm those expecting you to simply be aboveboard or "adult-like" in the first place.
You guys are writing the history here..and being "legal" throughout all of this...seems (in retrospect) to be much less of a concern than simply "being a man" eventually turned out to be.
Again, this definition may vary by region...but I don't think there are to many up here who would disagree that acting like your group has chosen to is not only pretty immature...but definitely NOT the type of behavior we would choose to pass down to our children.( I mean, you guys just don't 'screw up' now and then...you've made a lifestyle of it!).

All for now...

 

Michigan ORV Trail Advisory meeting, Feb 8th, May 10, Aug 9, and Nov 8, at the Holiday Inn West 7501 Saginaw St. in Delta township, just west of Lansing at 6:30 pm.

 

Uh huh, yet to quote you again:
So you are saying "maintained as" means "no ATVs allowed". Sorry, wrong again. Nice to see you throw in the 50" trail item, but again, you have never shown evidence that it was _ever_ listed as a 50" trail. On any map. From anyone.

Nobody has asked who I represented until just now, yet it should be pretty clear in my signature who I am affiliated with. Here's the direct answer: I represent Great Lakes Dual Sporters as their current President, I represent the Cycle Conservation Club of Michigan as a current Board member. I belong to and share interests with the other listed organizations (Blue Ribbon, AMA, ATVOC and others such as MSA).
I'm sure the list of clubs you've joined and quit in disgust will dwarf those that I regularly support.

Spell my name correctly you illiterate twerp.
You can see me "in action" at 90% of the CCC events and most any weekend during the summer riding season in the woods working on trails, working on events and occasionally at meetings working to better our sport.
Oh that's right, you don't actually ride _any_ of the trail system and so would never even know what or who was out there.

Words in his mouth eh? Let's see what DB has said:
Yep, looks like a challenge and a statement that 60" trails are the only solution. Call it what you want.

Read it again, "members-only" section. IE it was on their web site for all of their members to see, participate and comment on. I did not say it was their club's official position, but they did have a poll and that was the result.

You've missed it so many times, but I still laugh. _I_ live much further north than you and can ride right from my house to the trail system. In fact I can be on the State's Trail system in 10 minutes and that includes unloading from the trailer. Stop disparaging the SE population just because a new riding area near them would still _not_ be close to you.

Nope, but there are plenty of sponsored events going on "up north". Look at D14's racing schedule and you'll see a full calendar of events for both ATVs and cycles. Same for the CCC's schedule - another 12 events all north of US-10.

I have not seen nor heard of what plans the DNR has. So far, nobody has come up with that information that I'm aware of, but we'll know soon as the Department is required to present the plan this spring. I would like to provide input on their plan, most certainly. I believe most ORV related groups do want to help shape what this new trail will be. If you think that's BS, well, that is certainly your prerogative.

Really? I've not seen this statement from you (until now), nor anyone else. Can you provide a link, quote or something to explain what the heck you are referring to? I've never seen where the "public manner" was mentioned or otherwise discussed. Public interest is represented via the collective organizations, but I've never seen where MMRC was a public group or would be open to public comment.

Like I said, contact the organizations you belong to if you really want to find out who was at the meeting this time and what they discussed. I made the last two meetings, but the meetings before that, I did not. A rep from the CCC was there before, and I was informed on what was accomplished. I probably won't make the next meeting, but will have representation there. That's the point - there are no officers or "positions of title" in this group. I'm sure you'll miss that as well.

It really boils down to your personal grudges against certain groups and individuals. It's fun to watch you slowly bring that animosity out on these various boards, just takes time to see it unfold.
1. You have a personal grudge against RR from MATVA for something that happened (still not sure, but your recent posts try to explain it). Now anything from that group or person is, to you, an obvious attempt to do some sort of evil and you try valiantly to twist their work into that evil.
2. Same goes for most of the ATVOC guys, not sure if it's from MATVA roots or what, but the animosity is there (see the red-headed step child and similar comments).
3. You encountered Dick or somebody from D-14 and didn't like what they had to say about your current rant (that was probably unrelated to anything they've ever done or had awareness of) and now they are the toothpick in the mouth guys.
4. And the list goes on.

Do you realize you've used the word "damn" 45 times on this thread alone? As in "you damn well better" and "not a damn thing". Follow that up with 33 times for arrogant.
Just how many people are you pointing fingers at here? Have you still not concluded you are the only one pointing and shouting?