What is really going on in Michigan
Feb 16, 2006 | 08:38 PM
#492
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
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What is really going on in Michigan
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"..To make the claim that Dick is a 'motorcycle leader' is both deceiving and an outright LIE to the veiwers of this forum.
"..To make the claim that Dick is a 'motorcycle leader' is both deceiving and an outright LIE to the veiwers of this forum.
From the American Motorcycle Association District 14 website on 2/14/06):
2005 AMA District 14 Board of Directors: (Note positions of "Vice President" and "Legislative Director Off-Road")
http://www.ama-d14.org/board.php
Feb 16, 2006 | 08:52 PM
#493
Pro Rider
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,681
Likes: 0
From: Northern Virginia, near DC
What is really going on in Michigan
Muddy/Sam, Let me make something perfectly clear about clubs and how they can be best utilized. I am an advocate for joining clubs, have been, have consistantly sold them... BUT here is the secret that everyone MUST learn. The successful clubs are not the ones that schedule a picnic ride every third Saturday of the month... the ones that are successful in my mind are the ones where the members are out there beating the bushes gathering information just like we have been doing here, and then sharing it with their members. The hope being that the membership takes personal interest and is moved to actions like letter writing to elected officials etc. For goodness sake, look what was done in MN last summer... Grass roots at it's best! It takes a group effort to organize trail cleanups, trail marking parties, Trail maintenence days etc. Those are the things that clubs should be for...
Too many "members" think that they can leave things to the "Club" or the elected club president.. and "HOPE" the direction is in line with their views. This whole litany is a very good example of what happens when things are decided in a vacuum, and not everyone takes the time to express their views, stay involved or educated on what is going on.
I have said in the past that I recognize Dick's hard work.. however what I cannot understand or go along with, is the actions taken, undoubtedly with his blessing or by his direction, which do not in my opinion, and it appears that others share that opinion, represent the entire body he claims to head. CLEARLY, the group is not acting with all the interests in mind when it takes a minority position and runs with it over the majority opinion.
Your phone call illustrates another point as well. Dick started this thread, and when people balked at his litany, he bailed, and then others who shared his opinion come to his rescue. It appears your good friend is taking the same path, by calling you directly and letting you know that others have noticed your sins, and want you back in the fold. Hmm.. I see a pattern here.
I am glad that you have seen our position for what it is worth.. as I believe between you, BB and I, our position is based on a sincere desire to make the riding experience safer for all concerned and open to all who dare to ride with no favoritism shown to any group. But mostly it is our concern for the novice riders and kids.
My only regret is that you have been put in the middle... and it is not comfortable to any of us to see a like minded soul put in that position.
Too many "members" think that they can leave things to the "Club" or the elected club president.. and "HOPE" the direction is in line with their views. This whole litany is a very good example of what happens when things are decided in a vacuum, and not everyone takes the time to express their views, stay involved or educated on what is going on.
I have said in the past that I recognize Dick's hard work.. however what I cannot understand or go along with, is the actions taken, undoubtedly with his blessing or by his direction, which do not in my opinion, and it appears that others share that opinion, represent the entire body he claims to head. CLEARLY, the group is not acting with all the interests in mind when it takes a minority position and runs with it over the majority opinion.
Your phone call illustrates another point as well. Dick started this thread, and when people balked at his litany, he bailed, and then others who shared his opinion come to his rescue. It appears your good friend is taking the same path, by calling you directly and letting you know that others have noticed your sins, and want you back in the fold. Hmm.. I see a pattern here.
I am glad that you have seen our position for what it is worth.. as I believe between you, BB and I, our position is based on a sincere desire to make the riding experience safer for all concerned and open to all who dare to ride with no favoritism shown to any group. But mostly it is our concern for the novice riders and kids.
My only regret is that you have been put in the middle... and it is not comfortable to any of us to see a like minded soul put in that position.
Feb 16, 2006 | 09:12 PM
#494
Pro Rider
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,681
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From: Northern Virginia, near DC
What is really going on in Michigan
MWQ, it is easy for us out of staters to take a position to close trails if they become roads etc... but these people are trying desperately to come to grips with the problems they are facing. Sure we disagree.. but my perspective is focused on the novice and young riders that need that extra safety margin. There are enough trails out there that meet the 24 inch rule.. I can live with them maintaining that width... but I feel any new trails should be of the larger standard.
We are old school my friend, unfortunately times have changed. When I grew up, I blasted around in my back yard, but spent the majority of my riding time on motocross and flat tracks. Trails did nto exist in the midwest where I grew up. MI has a unique position in that they DO have trails available.. and without a doubt, I do not want to lose a single foot of them.
I also believe that education is still going to be the one place where we can do the most good. We do not do enough to promote responsible riding to the new crop of enthusiasts...
We are old school my friend, unfortunately times have changed. When I grew up, I blasted around in my back yard, but spent the majority of my riding time on motocross and flat tracks. Trails did nto exist in the midwest where I grew up. MI has a unique position in that they DO have trails available.. and without a doubt, I do not want to lose a single foot of them.
I also believe that education is still going to be the one place where we can do the most good. We do not do enough to promote responsible riding to the new crop of enthusiasts...
Feb 16, 2006 | 09:14 PM
#495
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
BB,
OK ,since you did'nt understand the part where I said Dick Reeney also ACTIVELY rides his ATV with his wife/club too,than I guess I have to accept the fact that you cant possible veiw him as an ATV leader as well as a cycle leader too?Spin it any way you want to,the FACT here is that you want to portray Dick as a CYCLE LEADER ONLY to the riding community in Michigan,someone who has done NOTHING for the ATVers,and I AINT going to let you get away with that kind of BS.
DB,
there is ALOT for such a young club to learn. These guys will make mistakes along the way but will also learn from them.The President of the club did many of us a FAVOR by accepting this job in the first place. He did'nt want it,but because he is retired,he is the BEST suited person for the position IMO. He will take his lumps and he will learn to,as MANY of us will.
OK ,since you did'nt understand the part where I said Dick Reeney also ACTIVELY rides his ATV with his wife/club too,than I guess I have to accept the fact that you cant possible veiw him as an ATV leader as well as a cycle leader too?Spin it any way you want to,the FACT here is that you want to portray Dick as a CYCLE LEADER ONLY to the riding community in Michigan,someone who has done NOTHING for the ATVers,and I AINT going to let you get away with that kind of BS.
DB,
there is ALOT for such a young club to learn. These guys will make mistakes along the way but will also learn from them.The President of the club did many of us a FAVOR by accepting this job in the first place. He did'nt want it,but because he is retired,he is the BEST suited person for the position IMO. He will take his lumps and he will learn to,as MANY of us will.
Feb 17, 2006 | 08:38 AM
#496
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
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What is really going on in Michigan
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...BB, OK ,since you did'nt understand the part where I said Dick Reeney also ACTIVELY rides his ATV with his wife/club too,than I guess I have to accept the fact that you cant possible veiw him as an ATV leader as well as a cycle leader too?.."
"...BB, OK ,since you did'nt understand the part where I said Dick Reeney also ACTIVELY rides his ATV with his wife/club too,than I guess I have to accept the fact that you cant possible veiw him as an ATV leader as well as a cycle leader too?.."
ruined atv trails for "study"...while in the meantime constructing yet another trail right beside the former for further use sans the (at least) 60" modern machinery needed to keep this devastation of our resource from happening yet AGAIN ...a "leader" period.
I also consider a "leader" to be someone who eagerly answers simple questions put forward in the interest of this sport (not 'bailing' when the going gets rough after YOU started the conversation)...and definitely not someone who uses the power of their position to <u>cut</u> your speaking time in front of others.(don't even get me started about cancelling the public's right to speak and ask questions because you and the DNR have discussed <u>all</u> <u>that</u> <u>need</u> <u>be</u> for 6 months during the most important update plan process in Michigan's off-road history).
I could give a damn less if the Vice-president and Legislative Director of the largest off-road **MOTORCYCLE** organization in this country representing the largest DISTRICT in this country...has an "atv" in his garage or not.
We're on the brink of environmentalists discovering that over 3,000 miles of trail sytem don't even have the basic equipment needed to maintain same...while the "leadership" in our off-road community railroads through 750 miles MORE that they flat out refuse to even so much as talk about maintaining or not.
Yeah, we've got one hell of a "leadership" going here, Bill...and you can be led around" by that kind of "leader"...<U>all</U> <U>you</U> <U>would</U> <U>like</U>.
Feb 17, 2006 | 09:39 AM
#497
KTM Patrol
Former Chinese POW!
Former Chinese POW!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 78,313
Likes: 56
From: Hat Creek, Ca
What is really going on in Michigan
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
MWQ, it is easy for us out of staters to take a position to close trails if they become roads etc... but these people are trying desperately to come to grips with the problems they are facing. Sure we disagree.. but my perspective is focused on the novice and young riders that need that extra safety margin. There are enough trails out there that meet the 24 inch rule.. I can live with them maintaining that width... but I feel any new trails should be of the larger standard.
We are old school my friend, unfortunately times have changed. When I grew up, I blasted around in my back yard, but spent the majority of my riding time on motocross and flat tracks. Trails did nto exist in the midwest where I grew up. MI has a unique position in that they DO have trails available.. and without a doubt, I do not want to lose a single foot of them.
I also believe that education is still going to be the one place where we can do the most good. We do not do enough to promote responsible riding to the new crop of enthusiasts...
MWQ, it is easy for us out of staters to take a position to close trails if they become roads etc... but these people are trying desperately to come to grips with the problems they are facing. Sure we disagree.. but my perspective is focused on the novice and young riders that need that extra safety margin. There are enough trails out there that meet the 24 inch rule.. I can live with them maintaining that width... but I feel any new trails should be of the larger standard.
We are old school my friend, unfortunately times have changed. When I grew up, I blasted around in my back yard, but spent the majority of my riding time on motocross and flat tracks. Trails did nto exist in the midwest where I grew up. MI has a unique position in that they DO have trails available.. and without a doubt, I do not want to lose a single foot of them.
I also believe that education is still going to be the one place where we can do the most good. We do not do enough to promote responsible riding to the new crop of enthusiasts...
I like being old school. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] And times havnt changed in ca yet. There must be plenty of places for each to ride because I have never heard of anything like what is going on in Michigan. And Im still not sure if its just one person. Before I joined this forum I had no idea that there was any problems between atv/mc users. Ca. must be big enough to please everyone.
Im not sure any amount of education can eliminate the idiots of the sport.
Feb 17, 2006 | 10:11 AM
#498
Shed Knocker Rider
Harley Punk!
Harley Punk!
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 35,876
Likes: 2
What is really going on in Michigan
Originally posted by: mywifesquad
DB, I have always just tried to give the serious dirt bike riders side in this. I was hoping it would help in some way. . I still appreciate both sides, but still have no idea how your going to get serious dirt bike riders to work with what they consider to be another threat. And to tell you the truth if I wasnt a moderator I would have stopped looking in here a long time ago. .
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
MWQ, it is easy for us out of staters to take a position to close trails if they become roads etc... but these people are trying desperately to come to grips with the problems they are facing. Sure we disagree.. but my perspective is focused on the novice and young riders that need that extra safety margin. There are enough trails out there that meet the 24 inch rule.. I can live with them maintaining that width... but I feel any new trails should be of the larger standard.
We are old school my friend, unfortunately times have changed. When I grew up, I blasted around in my back yard, but spent the majority of my riding time on motocross and flat tracks. Trails did nto exist in the midwest where I grew up. MI has a unique position in that they DO have trails available.. and without a doubt, I do not want to lose a single foot of them.
I also believe that education is still going to be the one place where we can do the most good. We do not do enough to promote responsible riding to the new crop of enthusiasts...
MWQ, it is easy for us out of staters to take a position to close trails if they become roads etc... but these people are trying desperately to come to grips with the problems they are facing. Sure we disagree.. but my perspective is focused on the novice and young riders that need that extra safety margin. There are enough trails out there that meet the 24 inch rule.. I can live with them maintaining that width... but I feel any new trails should be of the larger standard.
We are old school my friend, unfortunately times have changed. When I grew up, I blasted around in my back yard, but spent the majority of my riding time on motocross and flat tracks. Trails did nto exist in the midwest where I grew up. MI has a unique position in that they DO have trails available.. and without a doubt, I do not want to lose a single foot of them.
I also believe that education is still going to be the one place where we can do the most good. We do not do enough to promote responsible riding to the new crop of enthusiasts...
Feb 18, 2006 | 11:01 AM
#499
Pro Rider
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,681
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From: Northern Virginia, near DC
What is really going on in Michigan
What I can't for the life of me figure out is why there are so many high octane arguments going on between the two classes of riders on what is reportedly an ATV forum. If what you say is true, then their complaints/arguments/views and TIME would be better served supporting the web sites that are working to further their sport, and not spending so much time arguing their case on an ATV forum.
This is not to say they are not welcome... but just that we both have agendas, and it would be nice to be able to spend our time discussing ways that we ATV riders could work together for change that furthers our end of the spectrum without the bickering. I think both sides would be better served. Instead of fighting each other, and using each other as a bad example, I'd rather concentrate on unique needs that each sport requires and leave each other alone to work on their needs.
My biggest complaint has been the misrepresentation and claims made to the legislation over sheer numbers that the MMRC claims to represent. If they want to claim ATV riders as members, then they must take into consideration the needs of our sport in their actions. This has not been the case.
I support Muddy's call for more ATV enthusiasts getting involved. It will take strong leadership to focus your efforts on the issues that are before the ATV brotherhood... and I hope that this group spends most of it's time getting the plain word out to others so they can get involved in a personal way.
Posting of meeting minutes, current legislation under consideration, actions taken for and against ATV's by local administrations.. all are important bits of information, and should be everyone's daily read to keep abreast of what is going on. This group should also take the lead on gathering opinion via surveys etc., so that information can be shared with the DNR and legislators to get a clearer picture on what the membership really thinks about the subject under discussion.
WOW, talk about the need for a focused web site... I think the closest one I have seen so far is the Blue ribbon coalition's site. I urge everyone to take some time to go there and look around... and actually read the stuff to gain some insite on the battles that are being waged around the country.
Lastly, just remember the bigger picture. You might have riding heaven in the local area, but many of us who do not have ATV friendly state legislators, have it pretty bad right now, and need your support. When looking at the country's past, once legal precedent is established, it is only a matter of time before the same thing happens in your area...
Food for thought..... DB
This is not to say they are not welcome... but just that we both have agendas, and it would be nice to be able to spend our time discussing ways that we ATV riders could work together for change that furthers our end of the spectrum without the bickering. I think both sides would be better served. Instead of fighting each other, and using each other as a bad example, I'd rather concentrate on unique needs that each sport requires and leave each other alone to work on their needs.
My biggest complaint has been the misrepresentation and claims made to the legislation over sheer numbers that the MMRC claims to represent. If they want to claim ATV riders as members, then they must take into consideration the needs of our sport in their actions. This has not been the case.
I support Muddy's call for more ATV enthusiasts getting involved. It will take strong leadership to focus your efforts on the issues that are before the ATV brotherhood... and I hope that this group spends most of it's time getting the plain word out to others so they can get involved in a personal way.
Posting of meeting minutes, current legislation under consideration, actions taken for and against ATV's by local administrations.. all are important bits of information, and should be everyone's daily read to keep abreast of what is going on. This group should also take the lead on gathering opinion via surveys etc., so that information can be shared with the DNR and legislators to get a clearer picture on what the membership really thinks about the subject under discussion.
WOW, talk about the need for a focused web site... I think the closest one I have seen so far is the Blue ribbon coalition's site. I urge everyone to take some time to go there and look around... and actually read the stuff to gain some insite on the battles that are being waged around the country.
Lastly, just remember the bigger picture. You might have riding heaven in the local area, but many of us who do not have ATV friendly state legislators, have it pretty bad right now, and need your support. When looking at the country's past, once legal precedent is established, it is only a matter of time before the same thing happens in your area...
Food for thought..... DB
Feb 19, 2006 | 04:39 AM
#500
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
What is really going on in Michigan
Its our own damn fault. We've allowed the cyclist of this State to dominate what goes on with regard to our trail system.We will need to start EDUCATING the ATVers in Michigan about these issues before we will see a differance in this trail monopoly. The lack of user KNOWLEDGE has lead to the lack of ATVer involvement regarding the politics of our sport.We need strong ATV club leaders who bring these trail issues forward to their membership.A strong willed person who has finally decided that they've had enough of the cyclist running the show in Michigan.
Right now, the majority of ATVers in Michigan seem content with just getting together every once in a while for a ride or two. This ignorance on these trail issues will result in even further demise of their sport in the future.
Right now, the majority of ATVers in Michigan seem content with just getting together every once in a while for a ride or two. This ignorance on these trail issues will result in even further demise of their sport in the future.