Do you mind if I ask for how many years this has been the case?

 

MWQ,
its been this way since at least the mid 90s,if not longer.

DB QUOTE*
You are spending way too much time and calories being angry over what they are doing, and not enough effort in solving your real ATV problems.
END of Quote*

Thats exactly what I've been telling BB for the last yr or so.To much talk about what I already KNOW thats wrong,but no real answers to the solutions except constant bickering in all the forums he can get into, which acchomplishes NOTHING.

 

Thanks Muddy, Thats about 10 years or so. Why do you think that ATVer's in michigan as a whole dont care or wont get involved?

I have read that you guys arent interested in working with the dirt bike guys anymore. And thats understandable. If you decide you want to try and work with them, Ive got a suggestion for you guys. It probubly wont be to popular but all Ive ever tried to do here is let you all know what your dealing with. Do you know what excites a serious off woods rider? Tight trails, and the fresher the bettter. Why not bargain with the dirt bike guys and let them have all the new trail? In return they give up a equal or slightly more of "their" worn out single track and turn it into "multi use trail". That way you get wide trail and they get new trail. Its the only way that I think your ever going to get the m/c crowd to listen. and doesnt it sort of make sense? A trail starts out small and over time ghets wider and then gets converted to multi use trail.

 

MWQ,
as much as I have enjoyed your logic throughout all these years, this is one that you and I will have to respectfully disagree on.

A few hardcore cyclist and sport ATV operators will make the same arguement that you just made about wanting tighter, more challenging trails, they like to test the limits of their skills ect. IMO, a public trail system that supports two-way traffic is not a place for this type of a challenge. If you want to TEST your skill level, than the AMA District 14 has ALL kinds of races throughout the year to do such a thing. The public trail system should not be used as a race track for a FEW cyclist and FEW operators on sport ATVs to test their skill level against a given trail width they have on the ground.

The cyclist and ATVers of Michigan make up for the largest amount of users here in Michigan.We BOTH put in the SAME 16.25 cents into the SAME ORV kitty. With this said, it is my belief that the cyclist should not have ONE INCH of their own exclusive trail use WITHOUT supporting their OWN exclusive trail fund,just like the snowmobilers do in Michigan..According to the DNR maps, the ATVERs can access about 60% of Michigans 3000 miles of trails, the cyclist can already access EVERY INCH of the 3000 miles of trails. What makes you think that ANY ATVer should feel GOOD about not having access to ALL of this 3000 miles of trail that they support with their funds?

I'll say it again,if the cyclist want their OWN trails, than let them support their OWN funding. Im done feeling good about supporting these guys with exclusive use of trails on MY DOLLARS.

 

Well said.

It is very difficult to accomplish true representation when the very people "leading" you are confusingly proud of meeting anonymously and behind closed doors.
Hate to say it, yet just because these guys were "all for" tripling the amount of money coming out of our pockets for atv and cycle instructors (to the tune of at least $600,000 subsidized per year)...this does not give them some kind of "pass" when the equally important subject of multi-use trails and/or who should actually maintain them with the proper equipment...comes to light.

There has been absoluteluy no public position taken by any atv club leadership regarding the multitiude of pressing topics we have discussed here for months now....no leadership has shown any desire to have said topics discussed PUBLICLY within their organizations...and (frankly) the only "leaders" now making decisions for the rest of us?....are the same individuals who've been together from day one writing off everything they can think of under the sun regarding our sport in their (now) individual cozy damn "non-profits".

Belive me, I don't begrudge these people trying to keep the tax man at bay while being held up as 'leaders" within our community...yet just like these national orv leaders who turn tail and run when questioned about their cycle buddies getting caught red-handed holding secret meetings and cancelling public ones...these guys should be forced to finally come out here in the light of day and face the music concerning the TOUGH questions we've all finally put forth to them in this thread....or be effectively <U>thrown</U> <U>out</U> <U>on</U> <U>their</U> ***** for AGAIN flat-out refusing to do so.

 

BB QUOTE*

Hate to say it, yet just because these guys were "all for" tripling the amount of money coming out of our pockets for atv and cycle instructors (to the tune of at least $600,000 subsidized per year)...this does not give them some kind of "pass" when the equally important subject of multi-use trails and/or who should actually maintain them with the proper equipment...comes to light--------END of Quote*
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BB--Cant your heavy alcohol abuse wait till the evenings?

That comment above is the most ASSINE remark I've ever heard with regards to the topic of trail use / modern use of equipement and has NO CORRILLATION what so ever to what we are even discussing.And FYI, the ONLY folks that have access to ANY of this funding for safety classes,is the law enforcement agencies and intermediate school districts.

 

It doesnt bother me that we dont agree on this Muddy. I can agree to disagre with you. Its a exchange of opinions and views. I repect your views and even a little of BB's, just dont appreciate his methods much. And Im pretty sure he doesnt appreciate mine either, no big deal for me. That wasnt my point in commenting in here. Origionally I thought you guys wanted to figure out how to work with the m/c crowd. I tried to give some insight into that.


I will say good luck to you and BB getting the rest of the atv crowd involved. I personally think its going to be harder than getting along with dirt bike riders.

 

Its is going to be tough to bring the ATVers together for a number of reasons.

1.We have no real ATV leadership in this State who make it a priority to see through all the BS between the cyclist groups and the ATV groups. The few ATV leaders we currently have think its OK for the cycle guys to have their own trails,while at the sametime, suck these SAME ORV trail funds from the ATVers pockets.

2.To many leaders are more concerned with 'getting along' with the other ORV user groups instead of facing these trail issues and their leaders 'HEAD-ON' and facing the FACTS of today--not yesteryear

3. A lack of ATV user involvement in the politics of the sport. The cyclists have been represented in Michigan since the late 60s and have a membership base of about 4800 within the CCC. The ATVers just started to organize and have poor leadership and guidance with regards to the politics of the sport.

Its going to take a special group of folks here in Michigan that have finally faced the facts that the ATV clubs are not addressing the trail issues and these same folks will have to form their OWN coalition of users who beleive in a multi-use trail system to address the problems of the system.

I've allready got the name--MORES or,,,,'Michigan Outdoor Recreational Education Society'

Whens our first secret meeting?[ lol]

 

 

Originally posted by: mywifesquad:
"...Why do you think that ATVer's in michigan as a whole dont care or wont get involved?..."

Because southeast michigan atv riders have been told that if they don't keep their mouths regarding the disposition of this recent unprecedented and massive trail mileage that you witness everybody here afraid to talk about..."Santa Cycle" wil not bring these suburban atvers their nice new city slicker riding area (we won't even discuss what kind of fat hog these club leaders hope to slay at the same time).
How about pwerhaps the largest case of orv user apathy in perhaps the history of motorized recreation? (big statement, I realize...yet who else in this country has more trails; fewer active clubs and citizens who could care less if they received news from the orv front for up to 8 months at a time?).

"..I have read that you guys arent interested in working with the dirt bike guys anymore. And thats understandable...."

It's not "understandable" and its not true.
As I have said a hundred times up here...nobody in the history of light 4-wheeled recreation has ever proposed anything but forcing these people <u>to</u> <u>work</u> <u>with</u> <u>us</u> instead of continually stabbing us in the back every time we turn around regarding the overdue need for teamwork on true multi-use trail systems.
It's not about "shunning" people like the majority of their hard-core ridership believes should be done to US regarding their "exclusive' use of OUR land...it's about finally asking one simple question:
When did "god" make your machine king of the woods with some kind of inalienable right to land that you obviously have some kind of problem sharing?

"...If you decide you want to try and work with them...Why not bargain with the dirt bike guys and let them have <u>all</u> the new trail? In return they give up a equal or slightly more of "their" worn out single track and turn it into "multi use trail...doesnt it sort of make sense?...."

Again. it's bad enough that rural Michigan atvers have to fight suburban atvers allowing dirt bikers to claim that we have raped the trails and that they should be shut down for study due to lack of proper meaintenance equipment...but "apathy" just might be your answer to question #1 above if these bozos stand by and deed 750 miles away to some secret motorcycle council and their quest for a pay-to-play they'll directly profit from to boot.

Stranger things have happened...yet I'm just of the opinion that few in this state (especially the "it's not our problem, it's yours" cyclists) wants to pay for actually FIXING this 3,000 mile plus monstrosity that we have created...let alone passing on the idea of pay-to-play areas they could immediately profit on at the expense of those damn pesky insignificant "environmental concerns" we've already createdfor ourselves.

What's an annual sticker now in Quebec for year-round fun involving massive community/club support on (I'm guessing) similar mileage maintained 10 times as well....v.s. what WILL be the price to enjoy an old broke down system with barely any support; attempting to fix what they have from scratch and ("now") forced for-profit means?

Try to squeeze these kind of massive dollars out of the very people who have enjoyed these trails since '68... in the year of our lord 2006?

This community hasn't even begun to witness how nasty and arrogant these people can get when we finally get into their pocketbooks for the damage we did, still do and try to prevent...today. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]