[quote]
Originally posted by: 440EX026
Agreed, but I think you're wasting your time trying assist those unfamiliar with the relationship between our past and present foreign policy in understanding the real problems. Politicians, both sides, have discovered if they wrap almost anything in a flag, promise safety and accrue enough debt to keep the economy falsely pumped up most of the general public will concentrate on blind patriotism and TV programming to fulfill their lives.

 

I think the real reason so many are concerned (please dont use paranoid because its obvious its only a tactic to make those who are questioning this seem odd or conspirasists, and isnt working lol) is because of how history has taught us things like this are abused, and how some men find these powers and control irresistable and become obsessed.

Thanks for bringing up all the other problems we all have with the increased survaliance almost everyware. Do you honestly believe any of those mentioned are for us, or our safety? I seriously doubt it since all of those are specifically intended to protect the interests of the owner or business, and their capital.

As long as the casinos chips fall back into the rack they couldnt care if you dropped dead in your seat, though they would prefer you waited till you were back in your car or on the bus. Same for the quicke mart too since its used as a deterent, and only makes criminals more inconvenienced in needed to hide their identity, and would you believe no more honest people are holding up stores without survaliance than those with them!!

 

Just to be fair I wanted to include this because I know this is true also.

Even though the scare tactics are being used by both sides, and I still find the idea of scaring us into giving up our constituional rights considerably more important I still completely agree that the democratic party is using this whole deal as a political tool, and simultaniously taking away from the true issues and turning many people off to the idea of how serious these issues are.

Maybe its because the Dems have their hands into this as well (most likely up to their damn arm pits) and are just spinning it to protect themselves and cause the other side to waste time with damage control, but honestly I have to think that if both parties could manage to work thru all of this without defacing our constitution we would all be better off.

And please lets not get into the "billery" discussion because it really sickens me to just think of the potential disasters that would come with it.

 

I know that wasnt directly towards me, but yes it damn well bothered me.

It should bother everyone who is proud to be an American, and we all need to stand up and not allow "big brother" to continue to become a serious bully no matter what cute little names were taught to call it.

 

It all still comes back to the fact that in order to properly protect ourselves, our country and our interests overseas we do not need to throw away everything our country stands for.

There is no reason that our specific agencies, and their officers or agents can not perform their functions properly without having to throw away the constitution.

If we can not maintain our freedoms, and continue to live by the laws that have provided us so well for the past 230 years then we have nothing to protect in the first place.

I dont disagree with your thoughts on how the general thinking could change or even the propaganda etc if there should be another sucessful attack, but I also hope that our leaders dont allow the mistakes that happened the last to happen again and basically allow it to happen.

 

I wont even bother with commenting on the self proclaimed "creator of the internet" beyond saying that not only does he seriously scare the life out me as a one time potential president, but I also have problem with people who were so perfectly prepped for being a politician that they have no clue or connection with the citizens of our country.

This isnt supposed to be a rich mans only game, and the people are not properly represented much anyhow, and this needs to change, and not escalate.

Oh did I mention MORON!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

To believe that great men of the past would not posses the same intellect as those of modern times or be able to foresee how the basic acts and traits of man would not change much as would his greed and selfish self fullfiling nature is little more than arrogant.

Maybe its time to start questioning the value of the amendments made, and how they may have represented fairness to all Americans, and to what percentage these changes reflected the desire of the majority of the people who were being represented by the writers of the amendments.

I think most would agree that the creation of laws to deal with specific new creations or situations in our changing life is something that is needed, but I also believe that writing those laws in a manner that interferes with the original intent and meaning of the constitution is unacceptable and a bad idea, and doing so only to satisfy one person or a small group of people is an attack on all Americans and everything we stand for.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: georged
I have to agree but I did have some free time today, and also have been known to be persistant too [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

In reality I can respect anyones right to totally disagree with my thoughts, and thats fine. The one thing I have asked of anyone who is of a different opinion is to allow me the same respect I offer them in actually listening to what is being said without putting their main attention on how it relates to their thoughts, and their rebutal. In that I mean to actually clear ones mind and consider the ideas of another in a way that would be similar to being their first time thinking of it (empathy?).

Not everyone can do this, and I respect that as well, but I also find it frustrating how many people are able to form an opinion, and then are not able to see clearly beyond that opinion, and fight to the end never actually understanding what their fighting against. Maybe I am gifted, or maybe a fool, but I do believe in everyones ability to "see" what is in front of them if they really allow themselves to see it.

 

Well said!!

I only wonder how much more could have been gained if that speach left out all the obvious propaganda, and was not written by a member of the opposing party??


I wish I really knew the answer to that one, and even though we all have thoughts on this I somehow worry that no one (and I mean no one) is truely ready for the real answers.

Also I wish to propose another question or two, what really is a terrorist? What causes people to become a "human bomb"? Are they as some believe an oppressed group without any military might?

Damn I really wish I had the answer.

 

Where to begin??

"There are many ways to have freedom AND safety...they arent mutually exclusive". Please tell me how to catch terrorists if we can't have complete access to them at a moments notice?

I'm not taking political side here. I am in the belief that our govenment and law enforcement is ON OUR SIDE. It's not the people versus the dreaded power mongers. If it were, I'd be the first to grab my Constitutionally granted firearms to keep freedom.

"So lets see, you choose to believe a couple of known liers, and draft dodgers, and someone whos gone awol during a war". I thought you meant Clinton at first... It fits, doesn't it? Here's my problem with the "known liars" portion - known by whom? If I told you a story and you repeated it, then asked several more people and they repeated the same story, then you told the story - but then find out it's wrong, are you a liar? No. You repeated what you believed to be true. If you then let people know that it was bad information, according to the people calling Bush a liar, you'd be a liar too. So, I repeat, known to whom? Seems like just because Gore and several other political biggies on the left call Bush a liar, now he is one according to thonse that still do not have first hand knowlegde of their own accusations. Unlike Clinton, Bush told us all a story based on best information possible. Now people don't believe the CIA and NSA. Who do we believe then? We have to rely on info from some source, and if that source is wrong, that is the price we pay for intelligence gathering. Nobody ever said it was easy or perfect. Heck, Clinton sent a missle into an aspirin factory if I recall...

Surveillance everywhere - wasn't it a surveillance camera that caught the murderer of that young girl in Florida a couple of years ago. Do yuo have a daughter? I do. You ask the parents of that child if cameras are worthwhile. I'd want them in every school as well. Especially with the way kids are running around totally unchecked by their "parents". My kids are not into drugs because I'm into their lives. Apply that logic to our government and that's where I'm coming from. If there were no cameras, no surveillance, no nothing, then how does that make us more safe? Free? Maybe so, free to get mugged, raped and so forth. What's free about going to the Empire State Building and knowing that they let anyone and their brother into the building because they were afraid to infringe on somebody's rights?

NO ONE has the right to walk into MY home, or MY government buildings, or MY place of work without me feeling safe enough to let them in. With all the statements regarding freedom here, it amazes me that there are people that call freedom the same this as "leave me alone". I don't want the terrorists to be left alone. I want them found and eliminated.

"...include spying on American citizens in a way that violates our civil liberties". Can we spy on non-citizens? Can we spy on citizens in a way that allows that citizen to be "free"? According to several people here, being free constitutes everyone in this country not being watched or spied upon. There's a lot of people here that are up to no good. THAT'S who we should spy on.

What we need to figure out is how to make sure that the NSA or whomever is spying on the right people. I think that's what's got everyone all wacked. The dems are making out to be that "Millions of Americans" are being spied on. You, me, granny bingo lady. And it's all Bush's fault. I think thats a load of BS. Millions. BS!!! I WANT them to spy on the right people. I have to trust somebody, and if I have to trust either our security forces, or the ACLU/terrorists/dems, whom do you think I should believe?

In regards to **** Germany, Russia et al. During those times, the people didn't understand what was happening and had no way to say "Hey, wait a minute. You can't do that." We do. We ARE. We saw what happened, and there are plenty of us that would not allow the same thing.

Our country isn't perfect and neither is our political system. It needs constant review and oversight. Somewhere, there is a "best" answer, not THE answer, but best. Thankfully, we have places like this to bring issues to the forefront. WE make the difference in communicating like no other people in the world. Freely.

Now, everyone - go send emails to your congressmen and tell them to knock off the politics, stop spending so much dang money, and come up with a plan for tomorrow instead of blaming everyone for yesterday!