Freedom? Hah... the minute they signed the constitution and started making changes to it that sort of went out the window... and for good reason. that is the living in a society thing. I'd like to think we could get a comprehensive plan together on our own. Certainly the CPSC guidelines were a good stab way back in the dark ages... But enforcement is another issue. With states controlling their own laws, the only venue left is for a national law/program to have any chance of being enforced all over the country.

Let's not forget our fellow enthusiasts that ride outside the US too. Although they do not have to abide by these laws, their riding is affected as well, as the majority of th emarket is in the US, and ATV factories build to their market.

I still say that they are not guiltless here either. Common sense says that if they were to widen the machines, make larger framed units with the smaller engine sizes and add headlights to every unit, we could improve safety and accomodate larger riders to boot.

<u>I sure hope some factory sales guy is listening, because the first one who makes a larger and wider machine for the youth market, is going to blow the competition away.... WHY NOT A BLASTER FRAME WITH A SMALLER CC motor? You couldn't make them fast enough....

 

Dragginbutt


"I sure hope some factory sales guy is listening, because the first one who makes a larger and wider machine for the youth market, is going to blow the competition away.... WHY NOT A BLASTER FRAME WITH A SMALLER CC motor? You couldn't make them fast enough...."

I just sent this to Gary Laskin, Product Manager for ATV's at Polaris Industries.

 

Good going !!!!!!!


Now dont anyone get all freaked out on what I am going to say etc because I know first off it isnt going to happen, and secondly the forces that drive the market and thefore what is made by the mfg are completely different than what I am talking about, but still the subject keeps coming up, and I believe there is merit to it as well.

I know a lot of you guys dont completely agree with the theories presented by squeege, but please try and seperate yourself or your own preferences for a moment and just think about it for a while. I know my friends who ride the big 4x4 utes didnt agree with this until I made them really think about it and take their own opinions out of the process etc.

There is a deffinate issue effecting things from the escalating sales, marketing, and manufacture of the largest ute machines. I know I get blasted every time I get into this subject, and I understand why etc, but I also know that just like the valid points on the benefits of a wider mini for younger riders (and how about some real suspension too guys so that maybe the young riders wont have to worry about the same back problems so many see now when they are older) there is also a valid issue on how these larger and more profitable units are being marketed to cause them to be attractive to new riders. I dont know how else to say this, but a new rider doesnt need to be riding one of these anymore than they need to be riding a factory preped mx racer.

A recent example (similar to so many before) is one of my local auto shops owners who was looking to get into riding. From his info he gained from reading thru various magazines he decided he was needing to chose between the brute force, and king quad. Now we have plenty of places to trail ride within a short distance (none legal, and most well patrolled etc) but I wondered just why he thought this, and what his intentions were as well as his experience etc.

Well it turns out that he had some limited trail riding experience on two wheels around 15 or so years ago, and was thinking it would be a good way to enjoy some quality time being out on the trails again etc. and I think this is something many can relate to as I know I can.

Thing that suprized him was that he was lucky (or unlucky depends on your take lol) to have been talking with me, and I immediately tried to help or qualify his skills, needs, and wants to then tie them into what type of machine he would get the most enjoyment, and value from.

I have not spoken to him since, but I did send him to this thread both for his own sake and info as well as to help in his decision to buy a mini for his son if he was happy with things etc. I hope like some of the others I have sent to the thread he finds the info needed to make it a positive experience, and didnt become overly concerned, but still became aware of all the good info here.

Cant tell you what model he decided on, but I know he wasnt talking anymore about dumping 10 grand on a machine he had little use for, and found he was just getting caught up in all the hype etc. I hope for him and any in a similar position that they make the decision thats right for them, and get all the proper training avail etc, and dont become another new rider who is suprized at how these very simple and stable looking machines are still an atv and subject to the same laws of physics of all the others.

 

I can think of a couple things where size matters (Bigger is better), but ATV engine size is not one of them. The facotries think that they all have to have the biggest machine to sell them. I think that is the first myth that everyone who has plunked down the green stuff on one can honestly say is a real bust....

I can't for the life of me think of a single moment in my considerable riding experience where anthing more than 500 CC's were needed. EVER! Anything more than that and the person has some serious shortcomings they are trying to make up for... If you know what I mean...

Build one that doesn't break.. and you will have a fan for life. I think everyone who has been riding these things for any time has a story to tell about the buddy who just had to have the biggest and baddest thing on the planet, and went out and wrapped it around a tree, or rolled it etc.... I think I counted 7 out of the first 10 Grizzly's sold in my local area ended up busted up in the first 10 hours of use. Then you hear about the newbie that wants a 700 Raptor... Whoa there little guy... you need to crawl before you run...

The factories also have done such a bang up job on suspensions now, that I hate to say it, but they handle too well. Enough to flip you butt over faster than you can say what was that.... These independant rear suspension models are too plush, too good.

Dealers.. man, there are some good ones out there..... but there are some out there what flat are scary when it comes to selling... They will do anything, or upsell when they know for sure in their heart that the person on the other end of the checkbook is going to get hurt. It doesn't take long to ask a few questions.... Think about it... sell them a reasonable beginner machine, then sell them something a little better when their skills get better. Heck, they might have a brother or Spouse/Girlfriend that will take the old machine.. and you make two sales... Quit looking at teh end of your nose for one minute and look beyond....

 

I have usually owned the biggest Utility 4x4 on the market ever since I switched over from 3 wheelers in 1986,over to 4x4 ATVs.. I currently own a 2 seater 800 Can Am. This SHOULD be my last 4x4 ATV for a very long time.

WHY you ask the 800? Well for starters, this is the first 4x4 ATV I've owned that I felt did NOT need more engine. Granted, I agree that in MOST circumstances, anything over a 500cc engine is NOT needed. HOWEVER, let me tell you about the time I had to TOW my friends 500cc 4x4 AC for 13 miles thru various terrain which also had serious mudpit and hill climbs that we had to conquer to make it back to the parking lot. The 650cc engine on the Rincon really struggled in certain areas of this tow. The single cyclinder engine was really struggling and ran HOT to get us thru certain areas to. An ATV with a twin engine would have REALLY helpd out in this particular situation [not necessarily a 800 either]...I have never had my 800 past 50 mph and more than likely never will,BUT it sure is nice knowing that I have ALL the power plant under me that I will EVER need if the occassion should ever arise again. I have pulled out many other 4x4 ATVs with the power plant of the 800 and also pulled folks back to the parking lot in the event of a break down, and the 800 does not even know it is working.

Keep in mind that I am also a very experienced rider. I would not recommend an 800 for an in-experienced operator.

 

(forgive me, Muddy and I have a history and a friendly bond going) Hey Muddyone, good to see you behaving yourself. How are things in Michigan these days? I think you guys up there need more motor than us mear mortals in the other 49... You gotta have all that power to churn up them Mud ruts so the anti-ATV movement will have something to complain about... HAH!

Actually seriously though. I have a buddy on this list from Alaska that is constantly roughing it in some serious out back areas up there while hunting for food that uses a Kodiak.. and he has never once failed to make it back. Good thing too, as he camps where things can eat you and people up there carry multiple big bore weapons just in case they try. This action includes crossing rivers using winches etc. His machine is used to the fullest.. and he has not been left behind as the pirates say.

I still think more than that is overkill, but that is one man's opinion.. and God knows, I have shared that with a few eh?

 

Mudpits on a MARKED and posted OPEN Off Road Vehicle trail should be EXCLUDED from he enviro wacko's list of damage to land IMO. ORVs were not meant to be operated on a paved Roadway/Highway, they are Off Road Vehicles and will create some enviro damage, thats their nature and why we pay 16.25 per ORV sticker here in Michigan to ride. We have already been thru the BS in Michigan with these enviro folks that hope to close us down.

If its a mudpit or Hill ON the marked ORV trail, you should have the priveledge to play in it IMO without a issue from the enviro wacko's.

 

Not sure I can argue with that logic, but lets not forget that the "anti's" are not interested in logical results and are only looking to further their agenda of locking US citizens out of undeveloped land both public and private.

If common sense were used to achieve an overall situation across the nation that provided ample opportunity for motorized off road recreation while protecting the major environmentally sensitive areas thru education (theres that damn education again lol) it would not only provide additional safe riding opportunities, but also give the true environmentalists access to literally millions of potential supporters and members within the off road community that would be a great asset to the real battles of the environment like development and industrial pollution etc which seriously threaten the environment.

Problem seems to be that these people leading the various enviro groups would rather pick battles they can win more easilly, and even though our love of the natural outdoors as a group is a potential asset etc they would rather continue to attack our group as our disorganization makes us easy pickings.

A few ruts from slipping tires seeking traction or a some mud holes are not what is threatening our environment, but somehow these lunatics continue to make these their battles of choice, and its just plain wrong for our sport, our rights, our country, and yes even wrong for our environment, but still its what they chose to attack.

Too bad for everyone that their agenda takes precedence over our environment (morons) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

Stupid Kills? Or, "What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of serious injuries?"

I'll share this weekend's experience survived by my friends and neighbors as it's another example of the problem.

After 35 years on 2 wheels (mostly street, but a little trail riding), my business took a direction that required me to purchase a utility ATV. The day I rolled in with a red Honda Foreman 500 on the back of my hauler, the male neighbors on both sides were immediately drawn to it. I'm on the +side of 50 and they're all around 30. All three own 4X4's, two have street bikes, one has a RX7 and drives in road rally events, and the other has 2 wet bikes. Now, 1 year later, the neighbor on my left has a Suzuki Z-400 for himself and a Honda Recon 250 for his wife. The neighbor on my right is looking for a Yamaha Banshee or similar machine, and the guy over from him brought home a Suzuki LT-Z-400 on Thursday. Our properties are all about +/- 1 acre each. But, they all back up to around 400 acres of undeveloped land-locked wooded area, complete with a running creek. Now, all three of these guys are well educated and had a lot of experience on dirt bikes as kids and teens. Additionally, two have ATV experience, but the wife's have no real OHV experience, except for rentals on vacations.

Three weeks ago the first Z-400 arrived. Last week the Recon and second Z-400 showed up. The Banshee is on its' way. On Thursday, I was invited to join the group (now numbering 6 neighborhood ATV riders) on a trip to an OHV park about an hour and a half away. Unfortunately, I (and my ride) was already committed to working safety at an equestrian event on Sunday.

Upon returning home on Sunday about 6 PM, my wife was just pulling steaks off the grill. ("I've got her so well trained.") About a half hour later, as we were finishing up dinner my wife says: "I here the dog barking, they (the neighbors) must be home from the ATV park." Looking at my watch, and realizing that no one heads home early on an absolutely perfect spring day like we had just experienced here in Kentucky, unless something is wrong, I went to investigate.

My neighbors were in deed unloading their machines. As I was about to ask why they were back so early, I noticed one of the Z-400's was missing the instruments head. The other was short the clutch lever and a few other parts. Both had several bent and/or broken parts; including handle bars and frames. Only the Recon came home without a new scratch. After confirming that only the machines were damaged, along with a couple of male egos, we assessed the damages. Bye the way, the wife (the only inexperienced rider) was beaming that she was the only one that didn't wreck, as she pointed out the sticker that had been affixed to the most heavily damaged Z-400. It was a "Stupid Hurts!" band-aid that someone had applied to her husband's bent up quad.

That's when her husband admitted that upon their arrival at the OHV park, both the Z riders had stated they "would not try that hill." But, as the day wore on, both somewhat experienced riders decided to give it a try. We were now looking at the results. After coming up with a prlimiary parts list, I called another friend of mine who has access to several wrecked ATV's. We were trying to locate another Z-400 to be used as a parts source for the eventual repair project. Upon hearing their story, my friend (an ATVSI instructor) stated:

"I've heard it many times before. They say they won't try it. But, as the day goes on, each time they pass that hill their ***** get just a little bigger. Until the point when they out weigh their brains, and then they try it anyway."

When I shared this bit of wisdom with my neighbor, he managed a strained smile. But his wife's response said it all,
"Yeah, and Stupid Hurts!"

 

First thing to do is to create alot more riding areas (public and private).

As more of the current riding areas get fewer and fewer, more and more accidents will happen, because the fewer riding areas will become more and more crowded. We need more and more riding areas created.

Motorsports [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]