Homeland Security, or Big Brother?
#41
05-01-2009, 10:39 PM
Indeed it does. Appreciate the reply.
I know we don't agree on this, but hear me out: If all the land currently held by us, the American people (US Gov't) were to be controlled by extremely rich individuals in big ranches or huge corporations we wouldn't even be having a discussion which of the lands were to be converted to Wilderness, or what roads are to be closed, because we never would have had the option/opportunity to use much of the lands in the first place. I say be thankful that "we" own these lands. Yes, there are bad laws put forth by both parties when in power, but overall the system is pretty strong. I'm hoping that in some cases, roads closed will be mitigated by a more managed trail network. This doesn't happen all the time since some forests just have too many roads, but it does happen. I don't know....just think that the Dems won't control forever....they'll be voted out and somebody new will come in and make their changes. It's not that bad. Nobody is out to get anybody and nothing is static.
"4-wheeling" is a quickly growing sport and it can only gain in prominance and acceptibility. My prediction is that there will be more opportunities to ride, rather than less. I just wish people weren't so down on everything.
I know we don't agree on this, but hear me out: If all the land currently held by us, the American people (US Gov't) were to be controlled by extremely rich individuals in big ranches or huge corporations we wouldn't even be having a discussion which of the lands were to be converted to Wilderness, or what roads are to be closed, because we never would have had the option/opportunity to use much of the lands in the first place. I say be thankful that "we" own these lands. Yes, there are bad laws put forth by both parties when in power, but overall the system is pretty strong. I'm hoping that in some cases, roads closed will be mitigated by a more managed trail network. This doesn't happen all the time since some forests just have too many roads, but it does happen. I don't know....just think that the Dems won't control forever....they'll be voted out and somebody new will come in and make their changes. It's not that bad. Nobody is out to get anybody and nothing is static.
"4-wheeling" is a quickly growing sport and it can only gain in prominance and acceptibility. My prediction is that there will be more opportunities to ride, rather than less. I just wish people weren't so down on everything.
#42
05-02-2009, 12:28 PM
Super Moderator
Well, golly JimBob!
Well, golly JimBob!
I agree, Funride. 4-wheeling is still growing even with a weakened economy. I hope all the powers that be realize that and come to a concensus that leaves all parties mostly satisfied.
I guess part of my apprehension is that I was caught with my metaphoric pants down when Clinton was elected. There had been many warnings from conservative groups about gun control and I largely didn't really believe it too much. I didn't personally like Clinton but I didn't think they would ban firearms that were mechanically identical to many hunting rifles. I don't remember how long it was after he was elected that the lawmakers banned further production of so called "assault weapons". By the time I caught up prices had gone up anywhere from 200-300%. Even more in other cases. I ended up buying a Ruger Mini-14 which is a semi-automatic but, in my mind, inferior to a Colt AR-15 which is what I wanted to buy but could not afford. Before the ban I could have gotten a Match model for $400. It was selling for $2000 and is still high priced even though Bush let the ban expire. It's just a small example of being forewarned about possible problems coming down the road. I'd rather be on the leerie side and be pleasently surprised when it doesn't happen than to be on the, "whoa, what just happened side."
I guess part of my apprehension is that I was caught with my metaphoric pants down when Clinton was elected. There had been many warnings from conservative groups about gun control and I largely didn't really believe it too much. I didn't personally like Clinton but I didn't think they would ban firearms that were mechanically identical to many hunting rifles. I don't remember how long it was after he was elected that the lawmakers banned further production of so called "assault weapons". By the time I caught up prices had gone up anywhere from 200-300%. Even more in other cases. I ended up buying a Ruger Mini-14 which is a semi-automatic but, in my mind, inferior to a Colt AR-15 which is what I wanted to buy but could not afford. Before the ban I could have gotten a Match model for $400. It was selling for $2000 and is still high priced even though Bush let the ban expire. It's just a small example of being forewarned about possible problems coming down the road. I'd rather be on the leerie side and be pleasently surprised when it doesn't happen than to be on the, "whoa, what just happened side."
#43
05-03-2009, 07:24 PM
I'm very familiar with the entire gun control story from 1934 on. Our family owns the largest gun shop / sales in Western Pennsylvania....if not all of PA. Cabella's moved in fairly recently (Philly area), so I guess that certainly drops us out of the running for top dog these days. I gotta say business is good right now with Obama in office. The fear of gun control is totally unnecessary in my mind, but I've also got access to literally hundreds of firearms of all types at any time. So it's not that important to me personally. A different perspective I guess.
I'm a firm gun possession advocate (used to belong to the NRA for years; no longer do), but I have no problem with regulating "certain aspects of availability". Some of the psychos that come sniffing around to check how firm we are on our paperwork is disturbing to say the least. If you saw the weekly flow of whack jobs that when asked for their drivers's license suddenly have to retrieve it from the glove box, then never come back, you'd be amazed. -Blowing that out of proportion a bit, but you know what I mean.
A few years ago we got robbed and lost hundreds of hand guns and various rifles / weapons of all kinds. It's estimated they spent over an hour picking through our inventory. The FBI and ATF were involved and investigated for many months. Eventually the individuals got caught and ratted each other out. They absolutely ruined 95% of the guns by trying to get rid of the serial numbers. It was a shame to see. Luckily insurance covered most of the loss. They were professionals...... climbing telephone poles and cutting just the right pairs of wires connected to our security system. It cost tens of thousands to upgrade the system and harden everything. We're much safer now. It would be extremely difficult for them to get away with it again.
Are gun control fears good for business.....oh yeah. Is it necessary? Not in the least, IMO. If people didn't overreact all the time and get all worked up, an AR15 (for example) wouldn't cost what it does now. I think it's crazy if you ask me. And I totally agree with you, the pricing is just plain stupid. It's not all gravy for us.....we have to pay more and compete for the same guns. We don't make a ton of money on each one, but we sell a lot of them.
#44
05-04-2009, 11:55 PM
See my response to Scooter.
Incorrect: I don't talk about politics on any other sites. Only other site I even belong to is tractorbynet.com and politics discussion is forbidden, for just this very reason.
Correct. I have defended him from pointless attacks that make no sense. Clearly these attacks make sense to you, which is fine. You can say/think anything you want. If he screws up I'm all for talking about it. I've got no personal love for the guy. He's been there 100 days and you act like he's a dictator we must take down before he ruins the free world. Talk about the "sky is falling". Who's going to believe your crowd when/if there is a problem....a bunch of chicken-littles. You guys just don't know how to judge reality it seems. It's all a submersive and encoded attack on the white guy. It's coming any day now. Make sure you keep watching over your shoulder.
At times you have defended him for no reason at all, other than to be simple another yes man, much like the MSM. No doubt you would jump to your feet when he enters the room just like them, too. And just like the MSM, you are clearly in love with him. I don’t act like he is a dictator; he acts like a dictator. And yes, there are many that think he is attempting to ruin the free world – try read a little news that isn’t about ATVs or tractors – and isn’t MSNBC. And yes, with the comments coming from his administration, many Americans do feel they have to look over there shoulders.
Apology is the word YOU used. If you equate the word apology to defense, that's your problem. Maybe you should start equating dog to cat.
Yes, I used the word apology – because you do in fact come to apologise for him at any little perceived slight.
Your attitude is clearly that anybody that supports the president in any way is the ENEMY; that back-against-the-wall attitude. It's a shame. They are ALL liars and cheats. -Hey don't forget who started spying on us all there DeeDawg....It was the Bush crowd and his joke Justice Dept. Now there's a guy who has concern for the Constitution. You took more of a hit with your own man than you know or care to admit. They're listening to your private calls now because of your man Bush; and Obama has just kept it going! I'll complain about that.....It's a huge loss for all of us. They're listening to us all without warrants! You won't admit that though will ya. It's called illegal wire tapping by our government.
You can claim it was Bush that started spying on us, but you seem to have forgotten your history, or simply have selective memory (no surprise there). It was Clinton that started with the spy programs. Remember Carnivore? No, probably not – too inconvenient. There are other programs started by boy billy, too – look it up. There is also proof that what the bamster is doing right now is FAR more intrusive than what Bush did – look it up.
NO. Obviously this isn't some definitive, all encompassing paper on who to watch. These are in addition to the eco, narco, mid-east. Many similar reports have been written on watching out for possible eco-lefties and mid-east, etc. And you'd hope they haven't come to woo you....Your days of traveling in aircraft would come to a quick halt. These are very rare conditions they're talking about. It's not about every Tom, Dick and Harry that's ex-service. Way to blow it all out of proportion again.
Yeah, the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION puts out a paper to every law enforcement office in the land targeting a third of the American population for such crimes as 3rd party bumper stickers, and I’m the one blowing it out of proportion. Remember my apologist comment above?
Classic sour-grapes. It was all rigged. Yeah right. And yes, I'd love to see your "proof", since you mention it. To prove something you need statistical evidence. You have no such evidence, because it doesn't exist. You have a bunch of non-sense you got from some random right-wing site. On second thought, spare me the poof. I'm not interested. Obama got more attention because he was the front-runner. McCain was done when he went on national TV and announced the economy was "fundamentally sound", or whatever he said. Palin didn't help much later on either.
Not rigged? Sour grapes? Try doing some research on media bias.
Evan Thomas (writer for Newsweek, and grandson of the leader of the US communist party) predicted that sympathetic media coverage would boost Kerry’s vote by “maybe 15 points” during the 2004 presidential campaign. NEWSFLASH – If Kerry got 15 points, you KNOW Moabama got at least 25; just from the media.
QUOTE: "We have a team of four people going through Dumpsters in Alaska and four in Arizona. Not a single one looking into ACORN, Ayers, or FreddieMae. Editor refuses to publish anything that jeopardizes the election for O, and betting dollars to donuts same is true at NYT, others. … The fix is in, and it's working." Glenn Reynolds
QUOTE: The media isn't biased toward Obama; they just love him. Lauren Salazar
QUOTE: “Obama is prepared to really take over and rule from day one”. Valerie Jarrett, co-chair of the obama transition team. NEWSFLASH – the last person to “Rule” Americans was King George III
QUOTE: “Ironically, those of us who were sent out to take Obama’s measure in person can’t offer much help in answering who he is, or if he is ready. Barriers set in place between us and him were just too great. After all this time with him, I still can’t say with certainty who he is. He’s pretty dull”. Peter Nicholas has spent months covering the Barack Obama campaign for 18 hours a day.
The Republican Party is unfortunately no longer a national party. What happened to the GOP....it's not good for America.
Incorrect: I don't talk about politics on any other sites. Only other site I even belong to is tractorbynet.com and politics discussion is forbidden, for just this very reason.
Correct. I have defended him from pointless attacks that make no sense. Clearly these attacks make sense to you, which is fine. You can say/think anything you want. If he screws up I'm all for talking about it. I've got no personal love for the guy. He's been there 100 days and you act like he's a dictator we must take down before he ruins the free world. Talk about the "sky is falling". Who's going to believe your crowd when/if there is a problem....a bunch of chicken-littles. You guys just don't know how to judge reality it seems. It's all a submersive and encoded attack on the white guy. It's coming any day now. Make sure you keep watching over your shoulder.
At times you have defended him for no reason at all, other than to be simple another yes man, much like the MSM. No doubt you would jump to your feet when he enters the room just like them, too. And just like the MSM, you are clearly in love with him. I don’t act like he is a dictator; he acts like a dictator. And yes, there are many that think he is attempting to ruin the free world – try read a little news that isn’t about ATVs or tractors – and isn’t MSNBC. And yes, with the comments coming from his administration, many Americans do feel they have to look over there shoulders.
Apology is the word YOU used. If you equate the word apology to defense, that's your problem. Maybe you should start equating dog to cat.
Yes, I used the word apology – because you do in fact come to apologise for him at any little perceived slight.
Your attitude is clearly that anybody that supports the president in any way is the ENEMY; that back-against-the-wall attitude. It's a shame. They are ALL liars and cheats. -Hey don't forget who started spying on us all there DeeDawg....It was the Bush crowd and his joke Justice Dept. Now there's a guy who has concern for the Constitution. You took more of a hit with your own man than you know or care to admit. They're listening to your private calls now because of your man Bush; and Obama has just kept it going! I'll complain about that.....It's a huge loss for all of us. They're listening to us all without warrants! You won't admit that though will ya. It's called illegal wire tapping by our government.
You can claim it was Bush that started spying on us, but you seem to have forgotten your history, or simply have selective memory (no surprise there). It was Clinton that started with the spy programs. Remember Carnivore? No, probably not – too inconvenient. There are other programs started by boy billy, too – look it up. There is also proof that what the bamster is doing right now is FAR more intrusive than what Bush did – look it up.
NO. Obviously this isn't some definitive, all encompassing paper on who to watch. These are in addition to the eco, narco, mid-east. Many similar reports have been written on watching out for possible eco-lefties and mid-east, etc. And you'd hope they haven't come to woo you....Your days of traveling in aircraft would come to a quick halt. These are very rare conditions they're talking about. It's not about every Tom, Dick and Harry that's ex-service. Way to blow it all out of proportion again.
Yeah, the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION puts out a paper to every law enforcement office in the land targeting a third of the American population for such crimes as 3rd party bumper stickers, and I’m the one blowing it out of proportion. Remember my apologist comment above?
Classic sour-grapes. It was all rigged. Yeah right. And yes, I'd love to see your "proof", since you mention it. To prove something you need statistical evidence. You have no such evidence, because it doesn't exist. You have a bunch of non-sense you got from some random right-wing site. On second thought, spare me the poof. I'm not interested. Obama got more attention because he was the front-runner. McCain was done when he went on national TV and announced the economy was "fundamentally sound", or whatever he said. Palin didn't help much later on either.
Not rigged? Sour grapes? Try doing some research on media bias.
Evan Thomas (writer for Newsweek, and grandson of the leader of the US communist party) predicted that sympathetic media coverage would boost Kerry’s vote by “maybe 15 points” during the 2004 presidential campaign. NEWSFLASH – If Kerry got 15 points, you KNOW Moabama got at least 25; just from the media.
QUOTE: "We have a team of four people going through Dumpsters in Alaska and four in Arizona. Not a single one looking into ACORN, Ayers, or FreddieMae. Editor refuses to publish anything that jeopardizes the election for O, and betting dollars to donuts same is true at NYT, others. … The fix is in, and it's working." Glenn Reynolds
QUOTE: The media isn't biased toward Obama; they just love him. Lauren Salazar
QUOTE: “Obama is prepared to really take over and rule from day one”. Valerie Jarrett, co-chair of the obama transition team. NEWSFLASH – the last person to “Rule” Americans was King George III
QUOTE: “Ironically, those of us who were sent out to take Obama’s measure in person can’t offer much help in answering who he is, or if he is ready. Barriers set in place between us and him were just too great. After all this time with him, I still can’t say with certainty who he is. He’s pretty dull”. Peter Nicholas has spent months covering the Barack Obama campaign for 18 hours a day.
The Republican Party is unfortunately no longer a national party. What happened to the GOP....it's not good for America.
I’m with you on the Republican party. They (I’m not one) failed to put up a Republican – instead they put up a RINO.
#45
05-05-2009, 09:40 PM
OK. He wants to ruin the free world. People are free to say and think what they please.
So your logic is, because I have accounts on tractorbynet and here, I don't read any news? This isn't news Dawg, this is entertainment. Some people read newspapers, books, radio. There's no comparison between tractors, atvs and actual news.
There's a big difference between an apology [when you feel you are wrong] and a defense [when you feel you are correct]. They are opposites. Again, I don't understand your comparison of these terms.
How can you be more intrusive than listening to the troops call their wives from overseas.....listening to their person phone calls? Listening to anybody at anytime without a warrant? How could it get more "intrusive" than that?
Military Snooped on Troops' Phone Sex - US News Briefs | Newser
Yeah, I remember it. Want to compare the two programs? One requires a warrant and singles out individual persons of interest [Billy-boy's program]. The other listens to all of us, at any time, across all medias without a warrant [Curious George's program]. You honestly think these two systems compare? Yes, Obama has continued this program.
Carnivore Placement: The Carnivore system could be installed on a system either through the cooperation of the system owner, or by use of a court order. Once in place, the system was restricted by U.S. Federal law to only monitor specific persons. Under the current regulations, publicly acknowledged government personnel are required to get a warrant or court order naming specific people or email addresses that may be monitored. When an email passes through that matches the filtering criteria mandated by the warrant, the message is logged along with information on the date, time, origin and destination.
You're obsessed.
#46
05-05-2009, 11:44 PM
So your logic is, because I have accounts on tractorbynet and here, I don't read any news? This isn't news Dawg, this is entertainment. Some people read newspapers, books, radio. There's no comparison between tractors, atvs and actual news.
Since you have yet to show any evidence to any of your claims, they remain just your opinions and we can rest assured you are not well read on any of the subjects we have discussed, except perhaps from the only two media outlets you have mentioned. While the ATV forums are in fact entertainment the subjects we have discussed are not; or perhaps the ruination of our country is merely entertainment for you.
How can you be more intrusive than listening to the troops call their wives from overseas.....listening to their person phone calls? Listening to anybody at anytime without a warrant? How could it get more "intrusive" than that?
Military Snooped on Troops' Phone Sex - US News Briefs | Newser
Everyone in Iraq KNEW we could and would be listened to, so it was no secret for any of us. What they were listening for was classified information such as troop movements, future operations, number of killed or wounded, etc. That’s the sort of information that gets people killed. Do you think the Iranians and their minions weren’t listening too?
Yeah, I remember it. Want to compare the two programs? One requires a warrant and singles out individual persons of interest [Billy-boy's program]. The other listens to all of us, at any time, across all medias without a warrant [Curious George's program]. You honestly think these two systems compare? Yes, Obama has continued this program.
Obama has not simply continued with the same level of domestic spy, they are collected FAR more information.
Carnivore Placement: The Carnivore system could be installed on a system either through the cooperation of the system owner, or by use of a court order. Once in place, the system was restricted by U.S. Federal law to only monitor specific persons. Under the current regulations, publicly acknowledged government personnel are required to get a warrant or court order naming specific people or email addresses that may be monitored. When an email passes through that matches the filtering criteria mandated by the warrant, the message is logged along with information on the date, time, origin and destination.
Carnivore and other programs could have listen to anyone at any time. No way would have it been used only under court order – it was designed to “vacuum” information from everywhere. Why do you think it was shut down if it wasn’t overly intrusive? And speaking of intrusive, did you know the current administration will be going door to door getting the GPS address of every household in the nation?
You're obsessed.
Not obsessed, just willing to back up what I say with evidence and not just BS pulled out of thin air.
Since you have yet to show any evidence to any of your claims, they remain just your opinions and we can rest assured you are not well read on any of the subjects we have discussed, except perhaps from the only two media outlets you have mentioned. While the ATV forums are in fact entertainment the subjects we have discussed are not; or perhaps the ruination of our country is merely entertainment for you.
How can you be more intrusive than listening to the troops call their wives from overseas.....listening to their person phone calls? Listening to anybody at anytime without a warrant? How could it get more "intrusive" than that?
Military Snooped on Troops' Phone Sex - US News Briefs | Newser
Everyone in Iraq KNEW we could and would be listened to, so it was no secret for any of us. What they were listening for was classified information such as troop movements, future operations, number of killed or wounded, etc. That’s the sort of information that gets people killed. Do you think the Iranians and their minions weren’t listening too?
Yeah, I remember it. Want to compare the two programs? One requires a warrant and singles out individual persons of interest [Billy-boy's program]. The other listens to all of us, at any time, across all medias without a warrant [Curious George's program]. You honestly think these two systems compare? Yes, Obama has continued this program.
Obama has not simply continued with the same level of domestic spy, they are collected FAR more information.
Carnivore Placement: The Carnivore system could be installed on a system either through the cooperation of the system owner, or by use of a court order. Once in place, the system was restricted by U.S. Federal law to only monitor specific persons. Under the current regulations, publicly acknowledged government personnel are required to get a warrant or court order naming specific people or email addresses that may be monitored. When an email passes through that matches the filtering criteria mandated by the warrant, the message is logged along with information on the date, time, origin and destination.
Carnivore and other programs could have listen to anyone at any time. No way would have it been used only under court order – it was designed to “vacuum” information from everywhere. Why do you think it was shut down if it wasn’t overly intrusive? And speaking of intrusive, did you know the current administration will be going door to door getting the GPS address of every household in the nation?
You're obsessed.
Not obsessed, just willing to back up what I say with evidence and not just BS pulled out of thin air.
BTW - quotes are something I collect because often people say thing that show their true feelings, and can often be used to better explain things.
#47
05-06-2009, 10:57 AM
Round 4:
I don't want my name listed as the last one to post on this topic, so please do reply. I won't reply back. I was going to leave this as it stood, until I read your last line about me pulling "BS" out of thin air.
When did you get the idea this was anything but anybody's opinions. I guess I need to start saying "IMO" after every sentence. It's similar to your Party Boss Limbaugh's radio show. It's not news of any kind, it's his opinion.
There is no "ruination of our country", IMO. I'm sorry you feel we as a nation could be ruined in a short 4 years. You think this country is so unstable that it could be literally ruined in one persidents term? If he ruins it, he will be voted out. That's why there's 4 year term limits. He may degrade certain aspects of the law in your opinion, but who's to say the next president won't make his / her own changes back in your direction? I have a lot more faith in our system of government than you, I guess.
OK. Like anybody gives a crap how well read I am, or what I read about for that matter. Earlier in this thread, you claim that I get my news from left wing sources and talk about politics with others. I later inform you that I don't talk about politics with others and that I'm not a member of any other discussion groups aside from here and a tractor site and suddenly those two entertainment web sites are my sources for news? That's a very odd assumption Dawg. I could read all kinds of forums and not be an active participant or have an account. -Not worth argueing over.
Defend it all you want, but you're talking yourself into a corner. So when Bush and his gang are involved, it's the right thing to do; but when Obama uses it, it's an abuse of power. You can't have it both ways. Your party sure does try though. Either you DO agree with warrantless wire tapping of every citizen for any reason, at any time, under any circumstances; or you DON'T. -I don't agree. You defend it, I don't . Simple enough difference of opinion.
And we're all to believe you have direct connections into the NSA to verify this "fact" over the last three months. Where's your "proof"? You make these claims with zero to back them up. I make no such claims.
Where is your "back up". You talk about proof a lot in your responses. You've provide no proof of any kind. Links to web sites is not proof. Proof is determined in a court of law, or through scientific peer review. You've got none of the kind. Not once have I ever claimed I had proof of anything. Nothing we're talking about can be proven. It's just a few random people that know nothing of each other discussing politics. I don't have any proof of anything and either do you.
It's not fair to argue over this topic, but since you brought it up: I know exactly what Carnivore did because their equipment was located in some of our larger facilities; and I know exactly what equipment they directly plugged into (our core Internet routers). It's no great national secret and the project has been abandoned. It's just a fancy word for packet sniffing. The gear simply intercepts and copies the frames traveling across an ISPs network based on the IP address and the associated destination port (Web, Email, FTP, Chat, etc). They (FBI) simply looks at the frames and reconstructs the communication. If the criminal is smart and encrypts their messages, then they have some work to do. We're talking the FBI here, not the NSA. It monitored email and email only without a warrant. This type of "surveillance" looked primarily at the headers. With a warrant they could see pretty much everything you were sending and receiving. Criminals weren't too savy back then and little to nothing was encrypted in a hard way. Strong encryption was not readily available.
FBI can do the same as Carnivore with commercially available products right now. I've got a professional sniifer that I could use to monitor nearly your every key stroke, if your communications traveled across our circuits. We are one of the major Internet exchange points in the northeast, so a lot of traffic (100s of Gigs per second) crosses our trunks. -If anybody found out I was monitoring people's private communications just to "see" what people are up to, I be fired immediately. Some of our gear even has built in sniffers and I can just pluck an individual stream (an IP address) off the "router" and watch it real time. Those options have been turned off. I have never used it to see what people are doing and I don't know anbody who has. Why risk your job to see what the guy down the road is doing at 2am. Point is, Carnivore is a weak shadow of what's currently going on in the Bush and Obama administration.
FYI: Yes, the FBI can and does wiretap your local cable company home or company based phone modem (MTA). Just because you're not directly connected to the public switched network (Verizon, Bell South, etc.) doesn't mean they can't get access to your calls. All of our phone "switches" are setup for immediate FBI access.
.
I don't want my name listed as the last one to post on this topic, so please do reply. I won't reply back. I was going to leave this as it stood, until I read your last line about me pulling "BS" out of thin air.
There is no "ruination of our country", IMO. I'm sorry you feel we as a nation could be ruined in a short 4 years. You think this country is so unstable that it could be literally ruined in one persidents term? If he ruins it, he will be voted out. That's why there's 4 year term limits. He may degrade certain aspects of the law in your opinion, but who's to say the next president won't make his / her own changes back in your direction? I have a lot more faith in our system of government than you, I guess.
Defend it all you want, but you're talking yourself into a corner. So when Bush and his gang are involved, it's the right thing to do; but when Obama uses it, it's an abuse of power. You can't have it both ways. Your party sure does try though. Either you DO agree with warrantless wire tapping of every citizen for any reason, at any time, under any circumstances; or you DON'T. -I don't agree. You defend it, I don't . Simple enough difference of opinion.
FBI can do the same as Carnivore with commercially available products right now. I've got a professional sniifer that I could use to monitor nearly your every key stroke, if your communications traveled across our circuits. We are one of the major Internet exchange points in the northeast, so a lot of traffic (100s of Gigs per second) crosses our trunks. -If anybody found out I was monitoring people's private communications just to "see" what people are up to, I be fired immediately. Some of our gear even has built in sniffers and I can just pluck an individual stream (an IP address) off the "router" and watch it real time. Those options have been turned off. I have never used it to see what people are doing and I don't know anbody who has. Why risk your job to see what the guy down the road is doing at 2am. Point is, Carnivore is a weak shadow of what's currently going on in the Bush and Obama administration.
FYI: Yes, the FBI can and does wiretap your local cable company home or company based phone modem (MTA). Just because you're not directly connected to the public switched network (Verizon, Bell South, etc.) doesn't mean they can't get access to your calls. All of our phone "switches" are setup for immediate FBI access.
.
Last edited by FunRide; 05-06-2009 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Added IP info
#48
05-06-2009, 11:08 AM
Super Moderator
Well, golly JimBob!
Well, golly JimBob!
The original point of this thread stands. What was said is an indicator of the direction Homeland Security is directing their attentions. Either it was too broad a brush or they are sticking their noses where they don't need to be stuck. I, for one, think it shows where they are focusing their attentions.
#49
05-08-2009, 12:28 PM
Round 4:
I don't want my name listed as the last one to post on this topic, so please do reply. I won't reply back. I was going to leave this as it stood, until I read your last line about me pulling "BS" out of thin air.
Of course you don’t want to comment any more because you know you are losing the argument. Really nice of you to make your comments, then ask a mod to close the discussion. Kinda like a little girl running to the play ground monitor crying “They’re picking on me”!!! Not the first time you have done that is it? Prolly been that way your whole life…
When did you get the idea this was anything but anybody's opinions. I guess I need to start saying "IMO" after every sentence. It's similar to your Party Boss Limbaugh's radio show. It's not news of any kind, it's his opinion.
Once again you haven’t been paying attention.
There is no "ruination of our country", IMO. I'm sorry you feel we as a nation could be ruined in a short 4 years. You think this country is so unstable that it could be literally ruined in one persidents term? If he ruins it, he will be voted out. That's why there's 4 year term limits. He may degrade certain aspects of the law in your opinion, but who's to say the next president won't make his / her own changes back in your direction? I have a lot more faith in our system of government than you, I guess.
You don’t think Maobama is attempting to ruin the country? What do you call taking over the entire banking system? Attempting to “rein in” Wall Street and destroying people’s investments and retirement funds? Threatening companies with the wrath of the white house press? Turning GM over to the unions who financially supported his election? Further eroding our Rights, far beyond what Bush ever tried to do? Bowing before his King? All the while destroying such things as benefits for slain police officers? The list is endless… And unlike you, I have the support to back my claims. Not to mention that he gets a free pass for firing his white house advisers, unlike Bush who was raked over the coals. But firing them isn’t enough – Obama wants to destroy them by threatening them with prosecutions and disbarment.
OK. Like anybody gives a crap how well read I am, or what I read about for that matter. Earlier in this thread, you claim that I get my news from left wing sources and talk about politics with others. I later inform you that I don't talk about politics with others and that I'm not a member of any other discussion groups aside from here and a tractor site and suddenly those two entertainment web sites are my sources for news? That's a very odd assumption Dawg. I could read all kinds of forums and not be an active participant or have an account. -Not worth argueing over.
Obviously you are not well read. Try reading articles and news sites that differ from your own opinion. Following MSNBC does not make you well-read.
Defend it all you want, but you're talking yourself into a corner. So when Bush and his gang are involved, it's the right thing to do; but when Obama uses it, it's an abuse of power. You can't have it both ways. Your party sure does try though. Either you DO agree with warrantless wire tapping of every citizen for any reason, at any time, under any circumstances; or you DON'T. -I don't agree. You defend it, I don't . Simple enough difference of opinion.
You are comparing apples to oranges. When you are handed a government owned phone and told IN ADVANCE that you will be monitored is far different than two private citizens talking on privately owned phones. But since it wasn’t your azz over there on the line what do you care? No where have I EVER claimed to support “warrantless wire tapping of every citizen for any reason, at any time, under any circumstances.” Nice try though – typical liberal to try to twist the argument into some thing that isn’t.
And we're all to believe you have direct connections into the NSA to verify this "fact" over the last three months. Where's your "proof"? You make these claims with zero to back them up. I make no such claims.
I stand by my claims – and yes I have done the research, unlike you.
Where is your "back up". You talk about proof a lot in your responses. You've provide no proof of any kind. Links to web sites is not proof. Proof is determined in a court of law, or through scientific peer review. You've got none of the kind. Not once have I ever claimed I had proof of anything. Nothing we're talking about can be proven. It's just a few random people that know nothing of each other discussing politics. I don't have any proof of anything and either do you.
I have given proof. You have not offered any. And I didn’t go crying to mommy, unlike you.
It's not fair to argue over this topic, but since you brought it up: I know exactly what Carnivore did because their equipment was located in some of our larger facilities; and I know exactly what equipment they directly plugged into (our core Internet routers). It's no great national secret and the project has been abandoned. It's just a fancy word for packet sniffing. The gear simply intercepts and copies the frames traveling across an ISPs network based on the IP address and the associated destination port (Web, Email, FTP, Chat, etc). They (FBI) simply looks at the frames and reconstructs the communication. If the criminal is smart and encrypts their messages, then they have some work to do. We're talking the FBI here, not the NSA. It monitored email and email only without a warrant. This type of "surveillance" looked primarily at the headers. With a warrant they could see pretty much everything you were sending and receiving. Criminals weren't too savy back then and little to nothing was encrypted in a hard way. Strong encryption was not readily available.
FBI can do the same as Carnivore with commercially available products right now. I've got a professional sniifer that I could use to monitor nearly your every key stroke, if your communications traveled across our circuits. We are one of the major Internet exchange points in the northeast, so a lot of traffic (100s of Gigs per second) crosses our trunks. -If anybody found out I was monitoring people's private communications just to "see" what people are up to, I be fired immediately. Some of our gear even has built in sniffers and I can just pluck an individual stream (an IP address) off the "router" and watch it real time. Those options have been turned off. I have never used it to see what people are doing and I don't know anbody who has. Why risk your job to see what the guy down the road is doing at 2am. Point is, Carnivore is a weak shadow of what's currently going on in the Bush and Obama administration.
FYI: Yes, the FBI can and does wiretap your local cable company home or company based phone modem (MTA). Just because you're not directly connected to the public switched network (Verizon, Bell South, etc.) doesn't mean they can't get access to your calls. All of our phone "switches" are setup for immediate FBI access.
At least we agree that carnivore (and other programs like it) can and has monitored private citizens. No doubt the gubbermint is doing so right now, without warrants. But that really wasn’t the issue was it? Typical liberal - if you know you are losing a discussion then just babble on with BS….
.
I don't want my name listed as the last one to post on this topic, so please do reply. I won't reply back. I was going to leave this as it stood, until I read your last line about me pulling "BS" out of thin air.
Of course you don’t want to comment any more because you know you are losing the argument. Really nice of you to make your comments, then ask a mod to close the discussion. Kinda like a little girl running to the play ground monitor crying “They’re picking on me”!!! Not the first time you have done that is it? Prolly been that way your whole life…
When did you get the idea this was anything but anybody's opinions. I guess I need to start saying "IMO" after every sentence. It's similar to your Party Boss Limbaugh's radio show. It's not news of any kind, it's his opinion.
Once again you haven’t been paying attention.
There is no "ruination of our country", IMO. I'm sorry you feel we as a nation could be ruined in a short 4 years. You think this country is so unstable that it could be literally ruined in one persidents term? If he ruins it, he will be voted out. That's why there's 4 year term limits. He may degrade certain aspects of the law in your opinion, but who's to say the next president won't make his / her own changes back in your direction? I have a lot more faith in our system of government than you, I guess.
You don’t think Maobama is attempting to ruin the country? What do you call taking over the entire banking system? Attempting to “rein in” Wall Street and destroying people’s investments and retirement funds? Threatening companies with the wrath of the white house press? Turning GM over to the unions who financially supported his election? Further eroding our Rights, far beyond what Bush ever tried to do? Bowing before his King? All the while destroying such things as benefits for slain police officers? The list is endless… And unlike you, I have the support to back my claims. Not to mention that he gets a free pass for firing his white house advisers, unlike Bush who was raked over the coals. But firing them isn’t enough – Obama wants to destroy them by threatening them with prosecutions and disbarment.
OK. Like anybody gives a crap how well read I am, or what I read about for that matter. Earlier in this thread, you claim that I get my news from left wing sources and talk about politics with others. I later inform you that I don't talk about politics with others and that I'm not a member of any other discussion groups aside from here and a tractor site and suddenly those two entertainment web sites are my sources for news? That's a very odd assumption Dawg. I could read all kinds of forums and not be an active participant or have an account. -Not worth argueing over.
Obviously you are not well read. Try reading articles and news sites that differ from your own opinion. Following MSNBC does not make you well-read.
Defend it all you want, but you're talking yourself into a corner. So when Bush and his gang are involved, it's the right thing to do; but when Obama uses it, it's an abuse of power. You can't have it both ways. Your party sure does try though. Either you DO agree with warrantless wire tapping of every citizen for any reason, at any time, under any circumstances; or you DON'T. -I don't agree. You defend it, I don't . Simple enough difference of opinion.
You are comparing apples to oranges. When you are handed a government owned phone and told IN ADVANCE that you will be monitored is far different than two private citizens talking on privately owned phones. But since it wasn’t your azz over there on the line what do you care? No where have I EVER claimed to support “warrantless wire tapping of every citizen for any reason, at any time, under any circumstances.” Nice try though – typical liberal to try to twist the argument into some thing that isn’t.
And we're all to believe you have direct connections into the NSA to verify this "fact" over the last three months. Where's your "proof"? You make these claims with zero to back them up. I make no such claims.
I stand by my claims – and yes I have done the research, unlike you.
Where is your "back up". You talk about proof a lot in your responses. You've provide no proof of any kind. Links to web sites is not proof. Proof is determined in a court of law, or through scientific peer review. You've got none of the kind. Not once have I ever claimed I had proof of anything. Nothing we're talking about can be proven. It's just a few random people that know nothing of each other discussing politics. I don't have any proof of anything and either do you.
I have given proof. You have not offered any. And I didn’t go crying to mommy, unlike you.
It's not fair to argue over this topic, but since you brought it up: I know exactly what Carnivore did because their equipment was located in some of our larger facilities; and I know exactly what equipment they directly plugged into (our core Internet routers). It's no great national secret and the project has been abandoned. It's just a fancy word for packet sniffing. The gear simply intercepts and copies the frames traveling across an ISPs network based on the IP address and the associated destination port (Web, Email, FTP, Chat, etc). They (FBI) simply looks at the frames and reconstructs the communication. If the criminal is smart and encrypts their messages, then they have some work to do. We're talking the FBI here, not the NSA. It monitored email and email only without a warrant. This type of "surveillance" looked primarily at the headers. With a warrant they could see pretty much everything you were sending and receiving. Criminals weren't too savy back then and little to nothing was encrypted in a hard way. Strong encryption was not readily available.
FBI can do the same as Carnivore with commercially available products right now. I've got a professional sniifer that I could use to monitor nearly your every key stroke, if your communications traveled across our circuits. We are one of the major Internet exchange points in the northeast, so a lot of traffic (100s of Gigs per second) crosses our trunks. -If anybody found out I was monitoring people's private communications just to "see" what people are up to, I be fired immediately. Some of our gear even has built in sniffers and I can just pluck an individual stream (an IP address) off the "router" and watch it real time. Those options have been turned off. I have never used it to see what people are doing and I don't know anbody who has. Why risk your job to see what the guy down the road is doing at 2am. Point is, Carnivore is a weak shadow of what's currently going on in the Bush and Obama administration.
FYI: Yes, the FBI can and does wiretap your local cable company home or company based phone modem (MTA). Just because you're not directly connected to the public switched network (Verizon, Bell South, etc.) doesn't mean they can't get access to your calls. All of our phone "switches" are setup for immediate FBI access.
At least we agree that carnivore (and other programs like it) can and has monitored private citizens. No doubt the gubbermint is doing so right now, without warrants. But that really wasn’t the issue was it? Typical liberal - if you know you are losing a discussion then just babble on with BS….
.
BTW – since you are such a high flalut’n, high speed - low drag computer genius with access to missile defense systems and satellite tracking maybe you could try spell-check ever now and then? Just a thought…
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