In a singing tune All we are sayyyying, is give peace a chance.

Actually, I think quite the contrary that this has been a good discussion with little name calling, etc that you are bemoaning.

I do think Bluethumb doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. Not a slam, I'm honestly saying that some of the things you have said you claim to think aren't actually the case. So before you get offended, I'm strictly talking about some of the points you've made.

Bush supporters aren't blindly loyally following him like some of you are claiming. It all boils down to him not taking any more of the sshhlltt that is being dished out that we've been eating so to speak. Right or wrong (your opinion) regarding the war in Iraq, there's no denying he has made us safer from the likes of the terrorists and has ceased the funding to them from Saddam. Can you believe that Libya has entered into talks to dismantle their nuclear weapons, no doubt due to the fact that we kept our word about removing Saddam if he didn't comply. Think the Shah (isn't that what he's called) of Iran isn't feeling the pressure with the Taliban no longer in Afghanistan on his right and what's going on in Iraq on his left. NAH, no pressure there. Do you need me to name more? Not only does that make us safer in the US, but it makes you safer in Canadia as well.

Also, the Dems have moved so far right that 2 of the top 4 most liberal Senators were running for Pres. That's not including Teddy Kennedy and Howard Dean. All of those make Hillary look Conservative. Hard to believe but true. On the right side, Bush is not the most Conservative unfortunately, however he knows his first job is the protection of the citizens of the US and is doing what he sees fit to do to keep us that way. Go back to the first JFK and even he understood the way to get a slow moving economy going was to give tax cuts. The Dems of today aren't the ones of our grandparents generation. That is one of the reasons they lost control of the House ( I believe it was the House), for the first time in over 40 years back in 94, and then they lost the Senate in the next election. Say what you will about Clinton, he came into office with all 3 branches of gov't being D and left with all 3 being R. Gotta love it.

 

Again I ask why? Just like the person that called for this topic to just go away.... The fact of the matter is that this debate has caused no real harm. I haven't really seen a case for personal attacks on either side. The other fact is that politics aside, we all probably still go riding together.

I see no harm in having this debate............ even in an ATV forum.

 

Him not taking any more sh*t from who? Last time I looked the US has always used "pre-emptive" attacks to reduce the risk of terrorism, and what you would consider a threat to 'US interests abroad" aka oil. I don't see you going into places like Rwanda trying to stop a genocide, is this because there's no resources or interests there worth protecting? We both know this is partially the case, the fact remains, Iraq is more valuable monetarily than Rwanda. Anyway, everything I've said, like I said before, was not necassarily to start a fight or name calling session. I did, however, get people to think about things. I know most of you aren't following Bush blindly, on the other hand, you won't listen to Kerry's arguements for a minute, because your mind is already made up. Could you consider that being blind in that context?
What I see is GWB spending your childrens future. Look at CNN once in a while, your present medical system is going to collapse on or before 2026. I haven't seen Bush address this at all, although he has eased the strain on the meds for seniors a small bit. The US is profit driven, and that includes thing such as drugs, medical and dental care, they're all in it for profit. Why doesn't he institute a health care system and restrict prices on vital medicines. You know, paying $100 a pill is crazy, and they got you because you need it. Just a thought. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I would think the health of the people you're trying to lead would come before buying new missle systems

 

Let me see if I understand some of you guys defending Kerry... As a Gulf War vet, I'm supposed to respect a man who VOLUNTEERS ( I do respect that) for Vietnam, comes home, then goes before Congress and UNDER OATH, says that all his collegues in Nam were visciously murdering women and children?

Sorry, the man is a Silver Spoon, limosine liberal, who's voting record on National Defence, Intelligence funding issues, contributed to the events of 9/11.

Just the fact that France and Germany want him to be elected, is enough for me to vote again for George W. Bush!

 

For example, we've been taking it up the a## regarding the UN. We're not supposed to do anything without UN approval and then when we do have a consensus, 2 of them are able to block it. However, they love our money. Who do you think pays into the UN, the good ol USA and yet we don't even have veto power. Another thing we've been taking is terrorists attacks. I know we haven't had them like Israel but listen up. Go back to the first WTC bombing in 93, linked to OBL and there were the 2 US embassy's in Africa, the barracks in Saudi Arabia, the USS Cole. All happened before the 9/11 attacks. After each one, Clinton basically said "don't do that again or I'll have to give you a spanking" after no spanking they go the feeling we didn't mean what we said. Add to the fact that we had to cut and run in Mogadishu due to politics, the terrorists got the idea that if we would not pursue if there were US casualties. All of those "conflicts" got them bold enough to make the big step to attack us again on our own soil only this time we have a President in there that will "fight" back. Saddam was thinking the same thing. He signed 17 resolutions with the UN, never holding up his end of the agreement. Finally because the UN wouldn't act, Pres. Bush stood up and said enough is enough. Sure we've lost more soldiers than I would have liked but considering all they have done, it's really a very low death toll. So that brings us to today.

Regarding Rwanda, I'll admit we haven't always done the right thing. However, who is the country that is the one that usually cleans up the mess and provides support, both humanitarianly and monetarily, no one else but the US. And you're right about Iraq, it definately has more resources to protect. It's a cold hard fact but a country with resources is "worth" more than one without. All this aside, just where is Canadia's support?

Look at how much money Pres. Bush has spent and yet the Dems still claim he is cutting programs. So no matter how much he spends, it will never be enough unless the D is behind the name of the Pres. I do think his tactic of trying to appease some of the big name Dems has backfired and has cost us some money. Look at the records of Dems, always in favor of tax cuts and they do a damn fine job of playing the class warfare game. That's the facts.

Regarding CNN, now it's all making sense [your arguments]. They are clearly the most biased liberal leaning group out there. My dad doesn't get it either. It wasn't until Fox news came along that people realized how far right the news agencies are that Fox looks like it's on the far right. They're closer to the right than the left but they do a pretty good job of telling the news, not what we should think about the news.

Lastly, it's not a bad thing to be profit driven. A business cannot remain alive if it doesn't make a profit. All that being said, the gov't is not a business. It only needs enough to take care of it's people, nothing more. That's why we got a tax cut, because the gov't actually got more money in taxes than it had on it's books to pay out. I'm not going to go into the whole medical side of the argument you just brought up, but our medical system is still superior to yours and those in Europe. What did I hear a while back in England that a dentist had a few openings and there were over 600 people waiting in line before he opened his doors because they cannot get in anywhere else. Yeah, that sounds like a winner. If I need a surgery to repair part of my body, I don't have to wait as long as you. It's a proven fact that any time you make something free more people will use it whether they need it or not. Key words OR NOT.

One more thing, Kerry's history just in the past couple of months has been enough to keep him from getting my vote. My main reasons are I do not think he has the US interests at the top of the list. He has already said that it's important for us to be liked and that will be high on his list, to make friends. So long as there's people willing to do harm to us, I don't trust him to make the right decisions for the welfare of the citizens of the US. Second, he'll raise taxes and that will be devastating to the economy right now. We're showing slow and steady grow, critical to the health of the economy. Lastly, I think he'll pull the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan before we're finished. If that were to happen, the bad guys realize we will never stay long enough to finish the job. It will be the second time that has happened in Iraq and there's no way we could repair the damage to their psyche if we left again without finishing what we started after giving our word. Add to the fact that he's never worked a day in his life (married a lady worth $300 million the first time, married his current wife worth $575 million), actively led protests after getting back from Vietnam, meeting with the enemies leaders in another country for "talks", claiming both sides of issues (I voted for the $87 million before I voted against it), and he's the most liberal Senator in the country, I think it spells disaster for this country. I don't think you can claim I'm blindly following Bush, most of his followers are as informed as I and can/could give you reasons why we would not vote for him.

I've enjoyed the discussion but I think I'm done here.

 

You'll be back to see what I have to say. Annnd, here it is. FINALLY, someone who can tell both sides of the story, and give me reason to doubt Kerry and his policies. Never watched Fox news, I thought CNN was the American standard for news, unbiased, sorta like the CBC up here, but i guess not. I stand corrected.
I'll have to give you that the UN, as of late, has been sitting on their hands and been ineffective, they've so much as admitted it themselves. Sometime you have to do the unpopular sh*t. All countries that are part of the UN pay into it, not just the states, they're based out of there, and could possibly get tax breaks because of it, but the UN is not solely supported by US dollars. Where's Canada in this, well, we have ships in the Gulf as part of an American battlegroup, we have guys on the ground in Afghanistan, and Haiti, not to mention the Ivory Coast, and everywhere you are. Of course we can't supply the numbers you want, but we're not near as big either. Anyway, good talkin' to ya, hope ya come back..

 

bluethumb FOXnews is right/ CNN is left...... plain and simple. MSNBC is probably the most unbiased. You'll get a more even view of US news from BBC than we get on our TVs, I've heard CBC is similar to BBC.

I just saw FOX interviewing a guy who represents "punk rockers for Republicans" LMAO! I almost fell off my chair! You'll get a kick out of FOX they have about 27 different hot looking Stepford Blonds that come on and all say the same type of stuff you'd hear from Rush Limbaugh!

Also, FOX has a couple dumb liberals that willingly come on to be used as cannon fodder. They have a show called Hannity and Colmes. Colmes is this meek dimwit Democrat who loses every argument to the Republican dunderhead Sean Hannity. It almost as predictable as pro wrestling. But hey.....it's TV ......gotta give the people what they want!

 

ktk

<<<Right or wrong (your opinion) regarding the war in Iraq, there's no denying he has made us safer from the likes of the terrorists and has ceased the funding to them from Saddam.>>>

I agree


<<< Can you believe that Libya has entered into talks to dismantle their nuclear weapons, no doubt due to the fact that we kept our word about removing Saddam if he didn't comply.>>>

Lybia has been making overtures of peace to the west for 6 years. We've been ignoring him. Now we are listening because it creates the perception that he backed down because of the Iraq invasion. Not totally true.


<<< Think the Shah (isn't that what he's called) of Iran isn't feeling the pressure with the Taliban no longer in Afghanistan on his right and what's going on in Iraq on his left. NAH, no pressure there. >>>

The Shah was the US puppet in Iran for 25 yrs. He was overthrown in 1979. But you are right Iran and Syria are beginning to fall in line, no doubt. On the other hand.... you could make the argument that since we eliminated Saddam, the Iranians are just waiting for us to leave Iraq so they can move in. 60% of Iraqis are of the Shia religion that dominates Iran. Saddam kept them down, now they will rule. Good or bad, its a fact.

 

Mr. Bs,

The BBC is "even"? The BBC is probably the most overtly anti-American news outfit in the world. They wouldn't know the truth if it hit them square in the face! Oh and there was the "sexed up" reports that proved to be completely false. Remeber those?
MSNBC had to move closer to the middle, or more "fair and balanced" pardon the pun, but only because they've realized why Fox has shot up to number one so quickly... The American people have become dismayed at the left leaning major media in this country, trying to influence the agenda, and regardless what you think of Fox... Anything is right, compared to ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, NY Times, Washington Post, (need I go on?).

I love Fox News, because it's refreshing to hear news and hear the facts, not America bashing all the time!

Oh and Mr.Blue, I suggest you read again my justification for voting for Mr Bush. I have so many reasons, but one is the most important:

September 11, 2001. I was there... Were you?

 

<<<Oh and there was the "sexed up" reports that proved to be completely false. >>>

Yes, and someone lost their job over it. That would never happen on Fauxnews. I sort of like O'Rielly, but he said if there turned out to be no WMDs in Iraq he'd call Bush a liar, on TV. Instead he admitted he was wrong, but no mention of Bush being a liar. You know why? It ain't allowed.

<<<I love Fox News, because it's refreshing to hear news and hear the facts, not America bashing all the time! >>>

Of course you do. They know how to pre-package the news so it makes those on the right feel warm and fuzzy. Just like CNN does it for the left. All about the ratings. Anyone who takes what either station says as the total truth has their head in the sand, IMO.



Dissenting opinions are the foundation of freedom. Lose them and you have nothing better than Fascism. If judged by present day right wing standards Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry and Ben Franklin would be considered traitors. Chew on that while you're nodding your head to FOX news.

One more thing....the "Mr. Bs" thing really hurt, you are a master of debate, you slay me with your superior intellect.