Why buy American
#131
06-16-2005, 04:57 PM
Why buy American
It may seem that your car-buying decision would have no effect on your personal prosperity or that of your country, but it does. It really does matter if you buy an American-made Chevrolet instead of an American-made Toyota.
When you buy an American-made Chevy, you not only support more American workers, but also American investors, owners and stockholders. When you buy an American-made Toyota, you may help your Uncle Bob if he's on Toyota's payroll, but you're hurting Uncle Sam since American companies pay about three times as many taxes to the US. Treasury compared to foreign-owned companies. That's something to think about the next time you hear we have to cut benefits or raise the retirement age simply because the U.S.Treasury doesn't have enough funds to meet its obligations to Social Security or other benefit programs.
When you buy an American-made Chevy, you not only support more American workers, but also American investors, owners and stockholders. When you buy an American-made Toyota, you may help your Uncle Bob if he's on Toyota's payroll, but you're hurting Uncle Sam since American companies pay about three times as many taxes to the US. Treasury compared to foreign-owned companies. That's something to think about the next time you hear we have to cut benefits or raise the retirement age simply because the U.S.Treasury doesn't have enough funds to meet its obligations to Social Security or other benefit programs.
#132
06-16-2005, 08:31 PM
Why buy American
Excelent thread!!!
Being in a sales environment this subject comes up very often both with accosiates and customers.
Though many of the ideas presented here are often discussed there is one very popular thought that I have not seen posted yet, and that is how domestic manufacturing, imports, economic growth (domestic), inflation, wages, politics, profits and mostly the wealthiest people and corporations are all in a viscious cycle that is not favoring the american worker or citizen.
Its really very complex, and something that has been planned and happening over 40 years or more, but I will try to present the idea as simply as I can.
Many years ago when most manufacturing was domestic, and also mostly by people not machines and most unions were in their infancy etc there was a fair almost even balance of work, wages, and the cost of living in america. There were still wealthy and not so wealthy workers but for the majority of american blue collar workers there was a well paying job avail with enough benefits to allow them to provide for their families with a single income, and give them a good shot at the american dream.
Thats a far shot from where we are now, and there are reasons (many actually) that have lead up to where we are. First and foremost is the obvious loss of jobs to oversea concerns, but what many of us dont realize or just prefer to deny is that this was not something that just happened, or that was pushed by the purchase needs of the american public like were so often told by the media.
What the media seems to always leave out is that the driving force behind this now insane level of imports was not the american citizen, but rather a combination of greed and desire to accumalate unforseen levels of wealth by a small few individuals and politicians, and the very foundation of how our corporate giants and the stock market drive for increased profits and future growth.
Many may have slightly different thoughts on the exact time, but someware around the mid 50's to the early 70's our country was at its tops. Manufacturing was steady and growth was at good levels, and this produced enough profits for companies to continue to expand while allowing enough $$$ to properly compensate their employees at all levels (including smaller business). Most agree things were on an even keel and pretty good for most etc.
Apparently this growth was not enough for the small amount of the wealthiest americans and corporate america, and they begain looking for and implementing new ways of increasing profits, and their wealth. This is where things start to change for the entire country in many ways, and loss of good jobs in manufacturing and increased imports were leading the way from the 70's.
In comes all kinds of new technology and automation, and though these did reduce the needed amount of labor they were still mostly products of other american companies, which employed workers to manufacturer their products, and the goverment been working on new industries which it encouraged to help replace the lost jobs to manufacturing. Only problem was that these new jobs were not on the same level as the ones lost, and many benefits as well as income was lost with the switch, and an added issue was since the jobs were in the fast food, banking and credit card, and retail industries there were additional profit restraints that kept the typical workers salary in a lower threshold.
Some may say its a coincidence but at the same time the above is happening and people incomes are dwindling lower therfore reducing their buying power, the rush of imports was beginning. It started out very slowly and many veterans and other patriotic people brushed off the idea of buying from the then major importer (japan) and found other ways to allow them to purchase the products they were accustomed with the decreased income they faced.
Now dont forget that countries like Japan had many manufacturers that had grouped together to create a thirty year plan (as its reported they called it) to infiltrate the extremely large US market, but what many dont realize is that from the beginning the US actually had an input (some may say a role) in incresing these imports.
The reason so many began to embrace these products, and even why some claim the US was behind it in a way is that the lower cost to the consumer allowed the non lower compensated worker to still enjoy a similar level of living as they did before with similar items that at first only cost less. Another thought many have is that at this same time there were several major corporations pushing or lobbying the US Govt to encourage additional imports of lower cost products due to the fact that they had been investing in overseas relationships, manufacturing plants, and other ways that would allow them to profit from the increase in imports beyond anything they had ever seen before.
Today its totally out of control, and the original import countries have seen such large success that they now also share our employment problems, and the majority of imports are now from third world nations where the labor costs are truely only a mere percent (maybe 2-5%) of what we have here. So though we may be offered items that are less $$ and better fit into our reduced levels of income and living we are still paying an overwhelming amount percentage wise more for these products compared to their actuall costs to manufacture, but the profit level are now many times more than any products we have purchased ever in the past, and its all due to taking advantage of a poor country with little employment (or even salve and prison labor) and also us the american purchaser.
So were in a viscious cycle and spiraling downwards to this day. There have been several attempts to create new employment in various ways. My local state has been the largest employer for many years now, and with out a solid base of manufacturing of any industry (well maybe except the pharmacuitical) and those small businesses remaining either holding on to their last breaths, or changing to work for the last real solid business left (the goverment, and various state contracts) it has created one of the largest tax liabilities in the nation.
If you want to use NJ as a lesson just think about how a state with dwindling manufacturing and an ever increasing need to create jobs is even pulling it off at all. Sure the build up of debt has rosen to unbelievable levels and our tax rates are amoung the higest in the nation (that doenst even include all the hidden ones either) but it does create enough decent paying jobs with benefits to not only allow a decent chance for a decent job to hundreds of thousands here, but it also taxes the non govt employees in many ways to actually keep the whole process going.
So next time you look at making a purchase and see a real bargain consider why its less $$$ and think how many months your purchase could support a family from where it was made where $2 is a large weekly salary to a typical worker, but also dont forget what it is doing to our economy and your ability to ever get back to a point where you can actually afford the better quality products and lifestyle your parents or grand parents did.
Being in a sales environment this subject comes up very often both with accosiates and customers.
Though many of the ideas presented here are often discussed there is one very popular thought that I have not seen posted yet, and that is how domestic manufacturing, imports, economic growth (domestic), inflation, wages, politics, profits and mostly the wealthiest people and corporations are all in a viscious cycle that is not favoring the american worker or citizen.
Its really very complex, and something that has been planned and happening over 40 years or more, but I will try to present the idea as simply as I can.
Many years ago when most manufacturing was domestic, and also mostly by people not machines and most unions were in their infancy etc there was a fair almost even balance of work, wages, and the cost of living in america. There were still wealthy and not so wealthy workers but for the majority of american blue collar workers there was a well paying job avail with enough benefits to allow them to provide for their families with a single income, and give them a good shot at the american dream.
Thats a far shot from where we are now, and there are reasons (many actually) that have lead up to where we are. First and foremost is the obvious loss of jobs to oversea concerns, but what many of us dont realize or just prefer to deny is that this was not something that just happened, or that was pushed by the purchase needs of the american public like were so often told by the media.
What the media seems to always leave out is that the driving force behind this now insane level of imports was not the american citizen, but rather a combination of greed and desire to accumalate unforseen levels of wealth by a small few individuals and politicians, and the very foundation of how our corporate giants and the stock market drive for increased profits and future growth.
Many may have slightly different thoughts on the exact time, but someware around the mid 50's to the early 70's our country was at its tops. Manufacturing was steady and growth was at good levels, and this produced enough profits for companies to continue to expand while allowing enough $$$ to properly compensate their employees at all levels (including smaller business). Most agree things were on an even keel and pretty good for most etc.
Apparently this growth was not enough for the small amount of the wealthiest americans and corporate america, and they begain looking for and implementing new ways of increasing profits, and their wealth. This is where things start to change for the entire country in many ways, and loss of good jobs in manufacturing and increased imports were leading the way from the 70's.
In comes all kinds of new technology and automation, and though these did reduce the needed amount of labor they were still mostly products of other american companies, which employed workers to manufacturer their products, and the goverment been working on new industries which it encouraged to help replace the lost jobs to manufacturing. Only problem was that these new jobs were not on the same level as the ones lost, and many benefits as well as income was lost with the switch, and an added issue was since the jobs were in the fast food, banking and credit card, and retail industries there were additional profit restraints that kept the typical workers salary in a lower threshold.
Some may say its a coincidence but at the same time the above is happening and people incomes are dwindling lower therfore reducing their buying power, the rush of imports was beginning. It started out very slowly and many veterans and other patriotic people brushed off the idea of buying from the then major importer (japan) and found other ways to allow them to purchase the products they were accustomed with the decreased income they faced.
Now dont forget that countries like Japan had many manufacturers that had grouped together to create a thirty year plan (as its reported they called it) to infiltrate the extremely large US market, but what many dont realize is that from the beginning the US actually had an input (some may say a role) in incresing these imports.
The reason so many began to embrace these products, and even why some claim the US was behind it in a way is that the lower cost to the consumer allowed the non lower compensated worker to still enjoy a similar level of living as they did before with similar items that at first only cost less. Another thought many have is that at this same time there were several major corporations pushing or lobbying the US Govt to encourage additional imports of lower cost products due to the fact that they had been investing in overseas relationships, manufacturing plants, and other ways that would allow them to profit from the increase in imports beyond anything they had ever seen before.
Today its totally out of control, and the original import countries have seen such large success that they now also share our employment problems, and the majority of imports are now from third world nations where the labor costs are truely only a mere percent (maybe 2-5%) of what we have here. So though we may be offered items that are less $$ and better fit into our reduced levels of income and living we are still paying an overwhelming amount percentage wise more for these products compared to their actuall costs to manufacture, but the profit level are now many times more than any products we have purchased ever in the past, and its all due to taking advantage of a poor country with little employment (or even salve and prison labor) and also us the american purchaser.
So were in a viscious cycle and spiraling downwards to this day. There have been several attempts to create new employment in various ways. My local state has been the largest employer for many years now, and with out a solid base of manufacturing of any industry (well maybe except the pharmacuitical) and those small businesses remaining either holding on to their last breaths, or changing to work for the last real solid business left (the goverment, and various state contracts) it has created one of the largest tax liabilities in the nation.
If you want to use NJ as a lesson just think about how a state with dwindling manufacturing and an ever increasing need to create jobs is even pulling it off at all. Sure the build up of debt has rosen to unbelievable levels and our tax rates are amoung the higest in the nation (that doenst even include all the hidden ones either) but it does create enough decent paying jobs with benefits to not only allow a decent chance for a decent job to hundreds of thousands here, but it also taxes the non govt employees in many ways to actually keep the whole process going.
So next time you look at making a purchase and see a real bargain consider why its less $$$ and think how many months your purchase could support a family from where it was made where $2 is a large weekly salary to a typical worker, but also dont forget what it is doing to our economy and your ability to ever get back to a point where you can actually afford the better quality products and lifestyle your parents or grand parents did.
#133
06-16-2005, 10:49 PM
Why buy American
440EX026, that was extremely well thought out and written. However, most of it is inaccurate. Average employment benefits today are far, far superior to those in the 50s to 70s. Quality of life, lifestyle, and income are significantly up from that period of time as well and I am speaking in adjusted dollars.
Just as we entered a time when farming lost many jobs to manufacturing, we are now losing manufacturing jobs to the tech sector. Unemployment is not up from the average between 1960 and 1980 and is still way below that of the 80s. Overall, as the population increases, our unemployment rate is relatively low historically speaking. Reference the following site: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~lc7p/Lecture%207%20Handout.pdf#search='unemployment%20r ate%20in%201960'
Our economy, again historically, fluctuates in cycles. But, it is affected by major events like WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, 9/11 and so on. We are currently in a downturn in the unemployment rate following the spikes of the tech bubble bust and 9/11. Because of price pressures, manufacturing jobs, even if they stayed in the US, would see lower wages and benefits. And, of course, our shift to various industries will continue regardless.
I don't doubt that Japanese corporations had a 30 year plan to go after the US market. They have done a phenomenal job of it. Companies like Toyota lead the world in manufacturing strategies and technologies. They have opened the books on their Lean Manufacturing techniques. Any company that chose could have easily copied their methodology allowing them to compete more readily. I don't own a Toyota and hold no favoritism to them other than absolute respect for their amazing success.
However, we still lead the world in innovation in technology, pharmaceuticals, and many other segments. Of course those industries employ millions in very high paying jobs.
We are in the part of our cycle when many that fail to adapt start to feel the pain of a changing economy. That will be changing. Our workforce is starting to age and mature allowing a new generation to continue growing stronger fields.
It is truly amazing when you compare the quality of life from the time periods you quote to today's. Today, people in poverty have multiple TVs, a car, air condition, and many other luxuries. I have a direct comparison of poverty today vs. several other generations in a Sociology text from a college course that I took. The facts listed in the text debunk so many myths that the media passes on. Actually, I believe the media causes so many to believe incorrect information that it has negative effects on the economy and consumer confidence. Pretty sad...
I just noticed in your pictures, Yamaha and Honda quads. If those are yours, wouldn't that go against the last few sentences of your post?
Just as we entered a time when farming lost many jobs to manufacturing, we are now losing manufacturing jobs to the tech sector. Unemployment is not up from the average between 1960 and 1980 and is still way below that of the 80s. Overall, as the population increases, our unemployment rate is relatively low historically speaking. Reference the following site: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~lc7p/Lecture%207%20Handout.pdf#search='unemployment%20r ate%20in%201960'
Our economy, again historically, fluctuates in cycles. But, it is affected by major events like WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, 9/11 and so on. We are currently in a downturn in the unemployment rate following the spikes of the tech bubble bust and 9/11. Because of price pressures, manufacturing jobs, even if they stayed in the US, would see lower wages and benefits. And, of course, our shift to various industries will continue regardless.
I don't doubt that Japanese corporations had a 30 year plan to go after the US market. They have done a phenomenal job of it. Companies like Toyota lead the world in manufacturing strategies and technologies. They have opened the books on their Lean Manufacturing techniques. Any company that chose could have easily copied their methodology allowing them to compete more readily. I don't own a Toyota and hold no favoritism to them other than absolute respect for their amazing success.
However, we still lead the world in innovation in technology, pharmaceuticals, and many other segments. Of course those industries employ millions in very high paying jobs.
We are in the part of our cycle when many that fail to adapt start to feel the pain of a changing economy. That will be changing. Our workforce is starting to age and mature allowing a new generation to continue growing stronger fields.
It is truly amazing when you compare the quality of life from the time periods you quote to today's. Today, people in poverty have multiple TVs, a car, air condition, and many other luxuries. I have a direct comparison of poverty today vs. several other generations in a Sociology text from a college course that I took. The facts listed in the text debunk so many myths that the media passes on. Actually, I believe the media causes so many to believe incorrect information that it has negative effects on the economy and consumer confidence. Pretty sad...
I just noticed in your pictures, Yamaha and Honda quads. If those are yours, wouldn't that go against the last few sentences of your post?
#134
06-16-2005, 10:52 PM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: Lukester
05PRED500,
Don't go away. You and I do disagree, but you have to admit this has been a very informative thread, thanks to all of us. You come across as a gentleman. I don't think that anyone is mad at anyone on this thread. You know how e-mail is. I think it's been good natured. You should here my friends and I argue! Sincerely
05PRED500,
Don't go away. You and I do disagree, but you have to admit this has been a very informative thread, thanks to all of us. You come across as a gentleman. I don't think that anyone is mad at anyone on this thread. You know how e-mail is. I think it's been good natured. You should here my friends and I argue! Sincerely
#135
06-17-2005, 02:01 AM
Why buy American
05PRED500,
I think poverty of the 50's to 70's is relative to the poverty today. That is, the luxuries you mention people in poverty have today is relative to the luxuries people in poverty had then, comparatively speaking. Luxuries will always change with time.
I am tending to compare what we have today versus what we could have in a more American brand loyal society - not withstanding the lack of true free trade and other out-of-balance factors such as worker safety and environmental laws.
Think of the humane condition we contribute to, for example, of the Chinese worker when we buy Chinese. We can choose to let them know to treat the earth and their workers better, and thus force an increase in price of their product for this appropriate expense, or not buy their product.
At the rate we are going, we will eventually all (most of us) be equally poor, and globally speaking, in two classes of wealth - few rich and many more poor. This my friend, at the end of the day, is where we are heading.
As Americans, we need to put our money where our mouths are if we are to lead the world in worker safety, family wages, and environmental consciousness. If you care about these important items, you'll buy less of their products until they change.
I think poverty of the 50's to 70's is relative to the poverty today. That is, the luxuries you mention people in poverty have today is relative to the luxuries people in poverty had then, comparatively speaking. Luxuries will always change with time.
I am tending to compare what we have today versus what we could have in a more American brand loyal society - not withstanding the lack of true free trade and other out-of-balance factors such as worker safety and environmental laws.
Think of the humane condition we contribute to, for example, of the Chinese worker when we buy Chinese. We can choose to let them know to treat the earth and their workers better, and thus force an increase in price of their product for this appropriate expense, or not buy their product.
At the rate we are going, we will eventually all (most of us) be equally poor, and globally speaking, in two classes of wealth - few rich and many more poor. This my friend, at the end of the day, is where we are heading.
As Americans, we need to put our money where our mouths are if we are to lead the world in worker safety, family wages, and environmental consciousness. If you care about these important items, you'll buy less of their products until they change.
#136
06-17-2005, 02:40 AM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: Lukester
05PRED500,
I think poverty of the 50's to 70's is relative to the poverty today. That is, the luxuries you mention people in poverty have today is relative to the luxuries people in poverty had then, comparatively speaking. Luxuries will always change with time.
That is a good point. I only illustrated my point to show that all classes have moved up and the absolute lowest and impoverished people are fewer relatively than in the past.
I am tending to compare what we have today versus what we could have in a more American brand loyal society - not withstanding the lack of true free trade and other out-of-balance factors such as worker safety and environmental laws.
We can't control what happens in other countries. However, we do encourage other countries to ensure safe work places.
Think of the humane condition we contribute to, for example, of the Chinese worker when we buy Chinese. We can choose to let them know to treat the earth and their workers better, and thus force an increase in price of their product for this appropriate expense, or not buy their product.
Actually, we have made huge and lasting impacts in China. There record on human rights, although bad, is getting better quickly. I attribute that greatly to American influence. One of my good friends returned recently from China adopting a baby girl. Part of the process is 2 weeks visiting several towns and cities to learn a bit about the culture. He described a very different place than what most would expect. History tells us that communist countries fail. So why is China growing? They continue to take on more and more capitalistic ideology. Additionally, China is investing heavily in their infrastructure and there are many more opportunities for the people than ever before. So, we are actually contributing to a better life for Chinese workers in many ways including the "Americanizing" of that country.
At the rate we are going, we will eventually all (most of us) be equally poor, and globally speaking, in two classes of wealth - few rich and many more poor. This my friend, at the end of the day, is where we are heading.
I disagree completely. 85% of all millionaires in the US are self made and started with nothing according to Dave Ramsey. The middle class is not shrinking, it is moving up. This ideology is propoganda isn't backed by the facts regardless of what Dan Rather says. Why should the goal be to protect the middle class which is what I think I am hearing? Correct me if I misunderstood. I think the goal should be to bring EVERYONE up. Who cares if the rich get richer?? I started with nothing...and boy do I mean nothing. By the age of 20, I had lived in the "real world" and had less than what I started with at 17 when I left home for good. It took a couple swift kicks in the **** to get me moving, but now, at almost 35, I do very well and I will be a millionaire within a reasonable amount of time. I was not held back socioeconomically nor was I propped up by wealth from another source. EVERYONE has the same opportunity that I have had and if I can do it, OMG...anyone can. We all choose where we want to be in life here in the US.
As Americans, we need to put our money where our mouths are if we are to lead the world in worker safety, family wages, and environmental consciousness. If you care about these important items, you'll buy less of their products until they change.
05PRED500,
I think poverty of the 50's to 70's is relative to the poverty today. That is, the luxuries you mention people in poverty have today is relative to the luxuries people in poverty had then, comparatively speaking. Luxuries will always change with time.
That is a good point. I only illustrated my point to show that all classes have moved up and the absolute lowest and impoverished people are fewer relatively than in the past.
I am tending to compare what we have today versus what we could have in a more American brand loyal society - not withstanding the lack of true free trade and other out-of-balance factors such as worker safety and environmental laws.
We can't control what happens in other countries. However, we do encourage other countries to ensure safe work places.
Think of the humane condition we contribute to, for example, of the Chinese worker when we buy Chinese. We can choose to let them know to treat the earth and their workers better, and thus force an increase in price of their product for this appropriate expense, or not buy their product.
Actually, we have made huge and lasting impacts in China. There record on human rights, although bad, is getting better quickly. I attribute that greatly to American influence. One of my good friends returned recently from China adopting a baby girl. Part of the process is 2 weeks visiting several towns and cities to learn a bit about the culture. He described a very different place than what most would expect. History tells us that communist countries fail. So why is China growing? They continue to take on more and more capitalistic ideology. Additionally, China is investing heavily in their infrastructure and there are many more opportunities for the people than ever before. So, we are actually contributing to a better life for Chinese workers in many ways including the "Americanizing" of that country.
At the rate we are going, we will eventually all (most of us) be equally poor, and globally speaking, in two classes of wealth - few rich and many more poor. This my friend, at the end of the day, is where we are heading.
I disagree completely. 85% of all millionaires in the US are self made and started with nothing according to Dave Ramsey. The middle class is not shrinking, it is moving up. This ideology is propoganda isn't backed by the facts regardless of what Dan Rather says. Why should the goal be to protect the middle class which is what I think I am hearing? Correct me if I misunderstood. I think the goal should be to bring EVERYONE up. Who cares if the rich get richer?? I started with nothing...and boy do I mean nothing. By the age of 20, I had lived in the "real world" and had less than what I started with at 17 when I left home for good. It took a couple swift kicks in the **** to get me moving, but now, at almost 35, I do very well and I will be a millionaire within a reasonable amount of time. I was not held back socioeconomically nor was I propped up by wealth from another source. EVERYONE has the same opportunity that I have had and if I can do it, OMG...anyone can. We all choose where we want to be in life here in the US.
As Americans, we need to put our money where our mouths are if we are to lead the world in worker safety, family wages, and environmental consciousness. If you care about these important items, you'll buy less of their products until they change.
#137
06-17-2005, 04:29 AM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: 05PRED500
440EX026, that was extremely well thought out and written. However, most of it is inaccurate. Average employment benefits today are far, far superior to those in the 50s to 70s. Quality of life, lifestyle, and income are significantly up from that period of time as well and I am speaking in adjusted dollars.
440EX026, that was extremely well thought out and written. However, most of it is inaccurate. Average employment benefits today are far, far superior to those in the 50s to 70s. Quality of life, lifestyle, and income are significantly up from that period of time as well and I am speaking in adjusted dollars.
I have to debate your thoughts on the idea most of my post was inaccurate. Not because I wrote it (its not just my own opinion anyhow), but because I cant agree with your explanation.
First what I was trying to get accross was about the quality of living, and how imports have effected this thru reduced wages and benefits etc, and it has nothing to do with the employment rates and everything to do with replacing good paying jobs with those that barely break the poverty level (if that) just to keep the look of everything being well etc.
I dont think it to be fair to compare a good union job (GM seems to be quoted a lot here so why not again) that offers a very fair hourly rate, compensated overtime, holidays, vacation pay, disability ins, a company funded retirement and a host of other very nice benefits to one at walmart that pretty much offers you an hourly rate below the poverty level and a pink slip if you desire any of the other benefits mentioned above. I am only picking that company at random but there are so many to choose that have helped to reduce the standards we have come to accept.
I expect that you could agree that even when the numbers show how well the employment rate is that it doesnt have the same meaning anymore when you consider the amount of low paying and non benefits ones that are keeping the numbers up.
Your studies on the changes in poverty levels is very interesting, and though I think most of us hope to stay out of those levels (did the union workers of the period I discussed earlier qualify as poverty?) and work very hard to do that and have the things we do I also dont believe you can judge a persons quality of life from the amount of cheap imported electronics they own. What may be more interesting to look into is the increase in the amount of working "poor" in our country, but I still find your original study interesting as well.
Maybe we have lost our sense of value in our lives, but between long commutes to balance a decent job and good neighborhood for ones children, and having to have ones wife out in the working world just to get by or to have all those tv's, video games, leased cars in the driveway, and a host of other so called luxuries just doesnt seem to hold any weight against the things we have long lost like time with our families, having the wife raise the kids instead of strangers or the govt, and so many others my fingers would bleed having to type them all.
I dont know maybe as much as it may appear that were not agreeing we actually are, but possibly you have been able to accept a different set of values to judge by. It just doesnt seem that even though the cycles you mention do happen even when not forced or encouraged that there is any benefit to moving those various jobs overseas. I see all kinds of attempts to now go back to encouraging farming, and especially in a overcrowed state like NJ where every sq ft can be gobbled up by development, but is it a little to little and a little too late?
So maybe were just in a bad cycle, and yet another war or police action will save our economic picture again, but we are really losing the basic fundamentals to compete on a world scale, and many of those innovative accomplishments of the past will be very hard to duplicate in the future due to the reduced time allowed to all parents and more times than not even the children not having the time to dream or imagine etc. and though a lot of hard work was behind many of the previous successes there was also a major impact from our ability as americans to dream, and believe in the individual (both things that are going the same way as those good jobs lol).
Another point to keep in mind is that many of the hi-tech jobs are now filled by immigrants from overseas who have a totally different background and culture than what we have come to know locally. This does bring a large amount of top educated people into the mix, but it also further reduces the american inginuety and drive that has made this country great. Sure in a few generations these new citizens will blend in or mold as all the other groups have in the past, but thats well down the road.
Lastly I see you noticed by my pics that I am just as much a victim of these economics as anyone else, and how can you point a finger when there really isnt any choices for so many products. What would you prefer I owned a bunch of inferior atv's "assembled" in the US (actually the honda was made in GA lol) but from mostly imported parts?
Take it a step further and think about the various things we all own, and even those of us who approach the purchase process with a buy domestic whenever possible attitude etc are forced into buying into the whole mess due to economics of our reduced living standards and income from the whole scenerio I detailed before. Sure it would be great to buy nothing but us made products, and when we actually have the higher quality levels I actually will spend the extra $$$ when it makes sense etc, but the other issue is now that so many manufacturers have been on cutting expenses for so long that not all our products are superior and many have fallen considerablly in quality. IS it from the increase in use of inexpensive foreign parts to make our products? Maybe a lesson is to be learned by the experiences of a major foreign chain mfg (Tsubaki) which had purchased a large manufacturer in VT and started to overhaul the plant to bring them up to the standards they had in Japan. Well even after years of effort the very same chain made in sister machines with the same process still didnt measure up to the imported product.
Have we gone so far down the pipe there isnt any return??????
#138
06-17-2005, 07:06 PM
Why buy American
[quote]
Originally posted by: 05PRED500
Just as we entered a time when farming lost many jobs to manufacturing, we are now losing manufacturing jobs to the tech sector. Unemployment is not up from the average between 1960 and 1980 and is still way below that of the 80s. Overall, as the population increases, our unemployment rate is relatively low historically speaking.
This is a textbook analysis to a much more complicated problem. Farming jobs were lost to automation, and low food prices not the lure of manufacturing jobs. This analysis and many of your posts quote basic economic textbook ideas, but they fail to point out the reality of those simple textbook ideas. For instance, many workers (particularly the older workers) cannot be retrained for these new high tech jobs. As a result, these people are lost in the cracks. They will never have a job as good as what they had, so they take a lesser paying job. Since they are still employed, they do not change the unemployment figures. As far as unemployment rates, we have gone through huge unemployment times in recent history because of these workers, but they cannot remain unemployed forever. So they will often take what ever job they can get.
Our economy, again historically, fluctuates in cycles. But, it is affected by major events like WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, 9/11 and so on. We are currently in a downturn in the unemployment rate following the spikes of the tech bubble bust and 9/11. Because of price pressures, manufacturing jobs, even if they stayed in the US, would see lower wages and benefits. And, of course, our shift to various industries will continue regardless.
These price pressure come from lower price imports. Any many of the lower wages are just shifted from a higher paying GM manufacturing job to a lower paying Toyota manufacturing job; within the US!!. It might be good for the local economy that employs the Toyota worker, but not for the 10 other US workers that the single Toyota worker displaced. I don't see this as a change for the better for US employees. As a matter of fact, all sectors, not just manufacturing, is losing benefits. 20 years ago, anyone remotely linked to the auto industry had 100% medical, dental.... Now-a-days, everyone pays for a growing part of that. I don't see how that was a change for the better.
I don't doubt that Japanese corporations had a 30 year plan to go after the US market. They have done a phenomenal job of it. Companies like Toyota lead the world in manufacturing strategies and technologies. They have opened the books on their Lean Manufacturing techniques. Any company that chose could have easily copied their methodology allowing them to compete more readily. I don't own a Toyota and hold no favoritism to them other than absolute respect for their amazing success.
Thats very nice for Toyota. Now let the Japanese economy subsidize a GM plant in Japan the same as we subsidized the Toyota plants in the US. Given this economic advantage, we may find in fact that GM is also just as good. Toyota does not have any unique manufacturing technology that is not available to the whole auto industry since now-a-days they all buy this technology from only a few companies. Toyota does not build its own facilities any more than GM or Ford does. This equipment is often built by the same companies. As far as unique management skills, time will tell. Japanese companies have always had unique managment ideas that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't.
We are in the part of our cycle when many that fail to adapt start to feel the pain of a changing economy. That will be changing. Our workforce is starting to age and mature allowing a new generation to continue growing stronger fields.
Once again I am reminded by this statement "many that fail to adapt start to feel the pain of a changing economy". Once again this is a textbook view of our problem. This simplistic view that somehow, magically, manufacturer jobs turn into programmer jobs. For the few lucky ones that this can happen for, these people would have gone through at least 2 and more likely 4 years of college at an expense tens of thousands of dollars. During that time, their mortgage is not being paid, their cars got repossessed. This simple statement that workers can somehow instantly change jobs is ridiculous and ignores reality. Now for the un-lucky ones... well they can't "adapt" and they just take lower paying jobs. This is a reality that your economics instructor forgot to point out to you.
It is truly amazing when you compare the quality of life from the time periods you quote to today's. Today, people in poverty have multiple TVs, a car, air condition, and many other luxuries. I have a direct comparison of poverty today vs. several other generations in a Sociology text from a college course that I took. The facts listed in the text debunk so many myths that the media passes on. Actually, I believe the media causes so many to believe incorrect information that it has negative effects on the economy and consumer confidence. Pretty sad...
It is truely amazing for the people near these Toyota plants. Because these people are the ones that went from getting nearly no money for the jobs they had.. Because they probably worked for small businesses like yours, whose pay and benefits are poor.. to good paying jobs that finally gave them benefits. Once again.. here come the textbooks. I think anyone will understrand that from the period 1900, when the average American had no inside plumbing till today represents great strides. What we are talking about in this thread is real people today that must work your economic magic to shift jobs and lose everything in the process. We are not talking about the general trend of the world which by definition will always get better.
Your view of the economy seems quite simplistic because you are viewing society as a whole as something that evolves for the better and ignoring the minor bumps in the road such as reeducating a few million US workers. It almost sounds as if you have just taken these courses and are now justifying the changing world though these simple concepts. One of the first statements my college economics professor said when I entered class was "if you want to determine what economies will do in the future, you are in the wrong class.. The reason is that economies are driven by people and you have no idea what people will do because they are so unpredictable. You would be better off taking a psychology course." I leave that word of wisdom to you so you may consider this when you quote economics to tell us what the future will hold.
Originally posted by: 05PRED500
Just as we entered a time when farming lost many jobs to manufacturing, we are now losing manufacturing jobs to the tech sector. Unemployment is not up from the average between 1960 and 1980 and is still way below that of the 80s. Overall, as the population increases, our unemployment rate is relatively low historically speaking.
This is a textbook analysis to a much more complicated problem. Farming jobs were lost to automation, and low food prices not the lure of manufacturing jobs. This analysis and many of your posts quote basic economic textbook ideas, but they fail to point out the reality of those simple textbook ideas. For instance, many workers (particularly the older workers) cannot be retrained for these new high tech jobs. As a result, these people are lost in the cracks. They will never have a job as good as what they had, so they take a lesser paying job. Since they are still employed, they do not change the unemployment figures. As far as unemployment rates, we have gone through huge unemployment times in recent history because of these workers, but they cannot remain unemployed forever. So they will often take what ever job they can get.
Our economy, again historically, fluctuates in cycles. But, it is affected by major events like WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, 9/11 and so on. We are currently in a downturn in the unemployment rate following the spikes of the tech bubble bust and 9/11. Because of price pressures, manufacturing jobs, even if they stayed in the US, would see lower wages and benefits. And, of course, our shift to various industries will continue regardless.
These price pressure come from lower price imports. Any many of the lower wages are just shifted from a higher paying GM manufacturing job to a lower paying Toyota manufacturing job; within the US!!. It might be good for the local economy that employs the Toyota worker, but not for the 10 other US workers that the single Toyota worker displaced. I don't see this as a change for the better for US employees. As a matter of fact, all sectors, not just manufacturing, is losing benefits. 20 years ago, anyone remotely linked to the auto industry had 100% medical, dental.... Now-a-days, everyone pays for a growing part of that. I don't see how that was a change for the better.
I don't doubt that Japanese corporations had a 30 year plan to go after the US market. They have done a phenomenal job of it. Companies like Toyota lead the world in manufacturing strategies and technologies. They have opened the books on their Lean Manufacturing techniques. Any company that chose could have easily copied their methodology allowing them to compete more readily. I don't own a Toyota and hold no favoritism to them other than absolute respect for their amazing success.
Thats very nice for Toyota. Now let the Japanese economy subsidize a GM plant in Japan the same as we subsidized the Toyota plants in the US. Given this economic advantage, we may find in fact that GM is also just as good. Toyota does not have any unique manufacturing technology that is not available to the whole auto industry since now-a-days they all buy this technology from only a few companies. Toyota does not build its own facilities any more than GM or Ford does. This equipment is often built by the same companies. As far as unique management skills, time will tell. Japanese companies have always had unique managment ideas that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't.
We are in the part of our cycle when many that fail to adapt start to feel the pain of a changing economy. That will be changing. Our workforce is starting to age and mature allowing a new generation to continue growing stronger fields.
Once again I am reminded by this statement "many that fail to adapt start to feel the pain of a changing economy". Once again this is a textbook view of our problem. This simplistic view that somehow, magically, manufacturer jobs turn into programmer jobs. For the few lucky ones that this can happen for, these people would have gone through at least 2 and more likely 4 years of college at an expense tens of thousands of dollars. During that time, their mortgage is not being paid, their cars got repossessed. This simple statement that workers can somehow instantly change jobs is ridiculous and ignores reality. Now for the un-lucky ones... well they can't "adapt" and they just take lower paying jobs. This is a reality that your economics instructor forgot to point out to you.
It is truly amazing when you compare the quality of life from the time periods you quote to today's. Today, people in poverty have multiple TVs, a car, air condition, and many other luxuries. I have a direct comparison of poverty today vs. several other generations in a Sociology text from a college course that I took. The facts listed in the text debunk so many myths that the media passes on. Actually, I believe the media causes so many to believe incorrect information that it has negative effects on the economy and consumer confidence. Pretty sad...
It is truely amazing for the people near these Toyota plants. Because these people are the ones that went from getting nearly no money for the jobs they had.. Because they probably worked for small businesses like yours, whose pay and benefits are poor.. to good paying jobs that finally gave them benefits. Once again.. here come the textbooks. I think anyone will understrand that from the period 1900, when the average American had no inside plumbing till today represents great strides. What we are talking about in this thread is real people today that must work your economic magic to shift jobs and lose everything in the process. We are not talking about the general trend of the world which by definition will always get better.
Your view of the economy seems quite simplistic because you are viewing society as a whole as something that evolves for the better and ignoring the minor bumps in the road such as reeducating a few million US workers. It almost sounds as if you have just taken these courses and are now justifying the changing world though these simple concepts. One of the first statements my college economics professor said when I entered class was "if you want to determine what economies will do in the future, you are in the wrong class.. The reason is that economies are driven by people and you have no idea what people will do because they are so unpredictable. You would be better off taking a psychology course." I leave that word of wisdom to you so you may consider this when you quote economics to tell us what the future will hold.
#139
06-18-2005, 03:04 AM
Why buy American
It is late and I am way too tired to respond to all of Bryce's and Lukester comments. I just finished installing my Nerf Bars for a ride tomorrow at 8:30am. Sadly, I am not a morning person.
Bryce, on the contrary, I certainly DO NOT feel economis are simple. If that were the case, we are too intelligent to even care. Actually, I suspect you are like me and you would get bored very quickly with the topic if it were simple. Your economics professor is very right. At the same time, there are many somewhat predictable trends in history. Now, my answers can't be text book since I haven't picked one up in a long time. However, I do stay up on whats going on fairly well.
Regarding benefits and the auto industry, they got themselves in trouble similarly to the government. The greatly underestimated future costs associated with medical insurance, disability, pharma costs, and pensions. Then, to make it worse, there came competition in a global economy and they were simply ill prepared to compete. I say this without regard to quality PERCEPTION. Again, PERCEPTION.
Bryce, you have taken some pot shots at the pay and benefits my employees earn. 1st, you have NO IDEA what I actually pay my folks other that the fact that their health insurance is paid at 100% with excellent coverage. Simply because I don't overpay many workers because they are protected by the UAW, does not mean that they are not well paid for their industry. I pay well for performance. This month, everyone is making excellent money since the are really blowing out budget. Another thing, my folks really like working with me. As a former National Sales Trainer, I beleive whole heartedly in training and development. If and when my people leave my company, they have real world experience and certifications that they can take to the next level and thrive.
Regarding GM getting subsidized in Japan, if they want it, they should go after it!! Japans un-employment rate would support a plant, they could use the jobs. You have to have management strong enough to go get it.
Bottom line...GM is on it's way down. I forsee these cuts of 25k people as not enough. The could very well end up in bankruptcy which would likely split many units off where they would have a much better chance to thrive. As you've pointed out, I am no expert[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] But, this is my prediction over the next 5-7 years. In the mean time, GM and the UAW will battle back and fourth only to conclude that pay benefits, and pensions will be cut.
Sadly, much of this could have been prevented with better strategic and actuarial planning, far better execution, and a lot of luck.
One thing is for sure, GM can never be as good as Toyota. Toyota is recognize world wide for their lean manufacturing techniques and they don't even hide it. They publish how to books, the give seminars, and they share the technology. Why in the world hasn't GM copied them at least a little???
When you speak of the jobs available anymore as being low paying, no benefits, blay, blah, blah! Yes there are jobs like that. However, there are also MANY jobs out there that are huge steps up. Others go my rought and start successful businesses. Of course people slip through the cracks and it sucks. But it has happened throughout histori.
Bryce, on the contrary, I certainly DO NOT feel economis are simple. If that were the case, we are too intelligent to even care. Actually, I suspect you are like me and you would get bored very quickly with the topic if it were simple. Your economics professor is very right. At the same time, there are many somewhat predictable trends in history. Now, my answers can't be text book since I haven't picked one up in a long time. However, I do stay up on whats going on fairly well.
Regarding benefits and the auto industry, they got themselves in trouble similarly to the government. The greatly underestimated future costs associated with medical insurance, disability, pharma costs, and pensions. Then, to make it worse, there came competition in a global economy and they were simply ill prepared to compete. I say this without regard to quality PERCEPTION. Again, PERCEPTION.
Bryce, you have taken some pot shots at the pay and benefits my employees earn. 1st, you have NO IDEA what I actually pay my folks other that the fact that their health insurance is paid at 100% with excellent coverage. Simply because I don't overpay many workers because they are protected by the UAW, does not mean that they are not well paid for their industry. I pay well for performance. This month, everyone is making excellent money since the are really blowing out budget. Another thing, my folks really like working with me. As a former National Sales Trainer, I beleive whole heartedly in training and development. If and when my people leave my company, they have real world experience and certifications that they can take to the next level and thrive.
Regarding GM getting subsidized in Japan, if they want it, they should go after it!! Japans un-employment rate would support a plant, they could use the jobs. You have to have management strong enough to go get it.
Bottom line...GM is on it's way down. I forsee these cuts of 25k people as not enough. The could very well end up in bankruptcy which would likely split many units off where they would have a much better chance to thrive. As you've pointed out, I am no expert[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] But, this is my prediction over the next 5-7 years. In the mean time, GM and the UAW will battle back and fourth only to conclude that pay benefits, and pensions will be cut.
Sadly, much of this could have been prevented with better strategic and actuarial planning, far better execution, and a lot of luck.
One thing is for sure, GM can never be as good as Toyota. Toyota is recognize world wide for their lean manufacturing techniques and they don't even hide it. They publish how to books, the give seminars, and they share the technology. Why in the world hasn't GM copied them at least a little???
When you speak of the jobs available anymore as being low paying, no benefits, blay, blah, blah! Yes there are jobs like that. However, there are also MANY jobs out there that are huge steps up. Others go my rought and start successful businesses. Of course people slip through the cracks and it sucks. But it has happened throughout histori.