Regarding benefits and the auto industry, they got themselves in trouble similarly to the government. The greatly underestimated future costs associated with medical insurance, disability, pharma costs, and pensions. Then, to make it worse, there came competition in a global economy and they were simply ill prepared to compete. I say this without regard to quality PERCEPTION. Again, PERCEPTION.

Hmmm... hindsight is always easier. You do not understand the attitudes when those contracts were hammered out. So you have not the background to understand what happened. It is very easy to say what you are saying because it is now history. This is quite simple to say this.. the hard part is how to fix it. LOL, it is doubtful anyone could every suggest they they knew what could happen with medical costs!!

Bryce, you have taken some pot shots at the pay and benefits my employees earn. 1st, you have NO IDEA what I actually pay my folks other that the fact that their health insurance is paid at 100% with excellent coverage. Simply because I don't overpay many workers because they are protected by the UAW, does not mean that they are not well paid for their industry. I pay well for performance. This month, everyone is making excellent money since the are really blowing out budget. Another thing, my folks really like working with me. As a former National Sales Trainer, I beleive whole heartedly in training and development. If and when my people leave my company, they have real world experience and certifications that they can take to the next level and thrive.

Small businesses pay less.. Small businesses have less benefits. Now if your employees are UAW employees, then then may have half way decent benefits.. But judging by your sales, I doubt it.. Just my opinion with the many years looking at small businesses.

Regarding GM getting subsidized in Japan, if they want it, they should go after it!! Japans un-employment rate would support a plant, they could use the jobs. You have to have management strong enough to go get it.

LOL.. this is quite the suggestion.. we can't even sell cars at a competative price in Japan because of there protectionist polocies and somehow we expect that they would subsidize a GM plant?? I doubt it..

Bottom line...GM is on it's way down. I forsee these cuts of 25k people as not enough. The could very well end up in bankruptcy which would likely split many units off where they would have a much better chance to thrive. As you've pointed out, I am no expert[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] But, this is my prediction over the next 5-7 years. In the mean time, GM and the UAW will battle back and fourth only to conclude that pay benefits, and pensions will be cut.

GM will just cut costs by reducing the work force and sending production and parts manufacturing off-shore. This is the bad part. This is the cost of the American public buying imports. If you buy imports, the domestic manufacturing will have to reduce production. Simple as that. Eventually the growing import market share will require a loss of US domestic jobs. Simple as that. I don't argue much with this, only that it is not the way to go.

Sadly, much of this could have been prevented with better strategic and actuarial planning, far better execution, and a lot of luck.

LOL.. this is silly. Once again.. as I pointed out in my first paragraph hindsight is simple.
One thing is for sure, GM can never be as good as Toyota. Toyota is recognize world wide for their lean manufacturing techniques and they don't even hide it. They publish how to books, the give seminars, and they share the technology. Why in the world hasn't GM copied them at least a little???

This is the sort of thinking that is very bad. Once again.. you think how can a US company be as good as an off-shore company? I am sorry you feel this way because you are part of the US way of things. You are exactly this way of thinking. Just like all the GM executives, you were all raised and educated in the US. You learned the same economics, management and accounting. LOL.. you are no different than them.

When you speak of the jobs available anymore as being low paying, no benefits, blay, blah, blah! Yes there are jobs like that. However, there are also MANY jobs out there that are huge steps up. Others go my rought and start successful businesses. Of course people slip through the cracks and it sucks. But it has happened throughout histori.

You are writing only history and suggesting that everything would have been different if you were in charge, which is totally ridiculous. Sounds like the arm chair quarterback that always know the correct way to run the play.. after it is all over with.

You have not presented any good arguments that suggests why we should not buy from American companies. I only hear you complain that GM screwed up, therefore you feel they should self destruct. This seems like a silly idea. Fact is, the products produced by GM are as good or better than any off shore company. But you do not buy them because you like Toyota management... I guess. You seem to gloss of the protectionist policy of Japan. Yet you chastise GM big time for their policies. You just seem like the normal buyer with off-shore-itis. The general belief that off-shore products are better. You also think that it does not matter if you buy from off-shore companies. It is this kind of thinking that is why we are loosing domestic market share, domestic jobs and benefits. This is not the way to go.

 

and some people think just buying American badges will solve the whole problem

 

Thank goodness...

I didn't break my ankle. LOL

I really like them for the safety. But, since I am still too chicken to jump very high, I mostly like the looks of them.

The hail fell while you were camping?? Were you in a tent? That was probably pretty wild.

 

I can't agree with your tax argument. Toyota pays the same corporate income tax on a federal and state level. The payroll tax is the exact same. Additionally, it helps the employees of all of the suppliers and venders which pay their share of taxes. Sure, profits go to Japan. However, the lion's share of revenues stay in the US.

Millions of Americans are investors in Toyota. I was looking at some of my investments and one of my mutual funds, Hartford Capital Appreciation Fund, owns Toyota to the tune of 2.2% of their holdings. Toyota is one of the more common companies held in mutual funds because they are very profitable and the stock has done relatively well.

 

I am too tired to try and writ using HTML, so I will just reply in more of a paragraph form.

Small business employs more people in the US than any other segment. There are more millionairs created in small business than any other segment.

My Managers that run retail ops in a small town, makes $55-60k plus full family medical insurance (which is as good as most fortune 500 companies). My GM/partner also has several other benefits including stock ownership. My RETAIL sales people make approx $25-28k plus medical, again in a small town. Sorry...this is very exceptable income for the types of positions.

I find it kind of funny that you are still taking shots, now at my revenues. The problem is that you have NO IDEA what my operating cash flow is, NO IDEA what my free cash flow is, and certainly NO IDEA what my Net Margin is.

If my employees where UAW, I would be out of business employing NO ONE. Now, which is better???



Now...Of course hindsight is 20/20. However, I am by no means the only one making the observations about GM. There are dozens of anylists that have been warning about GM for YEARS!! The stuff that I have written is not some surprise.

You wrote that "GM will just cut costs by reducing reducing work force and sending production and parts manufacturing off-shore". You are correct. Does management not bare responsibility? In business they do. Your argument has been that the imports bring in cheaply priced products that the US car makers can't compete with. That is BS. Then import name plates that are selling, by huge margins, the most vehicles ARE PRICED MORE than similar American cars. Why then is GM getting there a$$ handed to them? Why do they discount the hell out of their cars and trucks??

They are trying to win with price rather than investing and building cars that people want. Again, let me repeat this, GM doesn't build cars that people want. And they don't build enough cars that they can hold high margins on.

Based on YOUR arguments, GM should own the US market, and they don't. Based on your arguments, GM should be making a profit, yet they lose over $2000 per vehicle. So, I would take a deeper look at your logic before you call my arguments "silly" LOL.



Forget about Japan. It is a tiny market. Plus, if GM can't win here, they have no shot in Japan even if they welcomed with open arms. They should be going after China with a vengeance!! It is the single largest market with loads of potential.



I don't argue that people should buy anything other than what they see as the best overall value for them individually. Blindly suggesting, lobbying, begging, that people buy American simply to support companies that can't compete is ridiculous.



When I bought my Armada, I looked at numerous vehicles including the Expedition, Tahoe, etc... No other vehicle gave me the features and towing ability that I needed. Bryce, your boat is not towable, but mine is. It is 27' (31' LOA), with an 8'6" beam with twin engines. She weighs a good 9000lbs+. None of the competitors can tow that much other than the Excursion or Suburban. They both are way too big IMO to drive around daily. It is a fine vehicle, but I think the Suburban's interior looks cheap. At the time, it was the same looking interior as the trucks from the early 90s. Not sure now though.

I bought what I needed. I bought the best truck for the money. Simple as that. This truck has had FAR fewer issues than my last SUV which was a 2002 Mercury Mountaineer.

So based on your argument, I should have bought an Excursion or Suburban just because they are American made even thought I don't like either??



The American consumer, for the most part, is just like me.

 

Small business employs more people in the US than any other segment. There are more millionairs created in small business than any other segment.

My Managers that run retail ops in a small town, makes $55-60k plus full family medical insurance (which is as good as most fortune 500 companies). My GM/partner also has several other benefits including stock ownership. My RETAIL sales people make approx $25-28k plus medical, again in a small town. Sorry...this is very exceptable income for the types of positions.

I find it kind of funny that you are still taking shots, now at my revenues. The problem is that you have NO IDEA what my operating cash flow is, NO IDEA what my free cash flow is, and certainly NO IDEA what my Net Margin is.

You were the one that brought up the details of your business to support your expert opinions. Everyone knows that small businesses pay less and provide less benefits than large corporations. If you don't want me to comment about your business, then don't bring it up in the discussion!! Seems to me you just provided additional information that I can use in future posts. I would suggest you just quit talking about your business. It really has no bearing on the discussion anyway.

Now...Of course hindsight is 20/20. However, I am by no means the only one making the observations about GM. There are dozens of anylists that have been warning about GM for YEARS!! The stuff that I have written is not some surprise.

These contracts were hammered out 40-50 years ago. LOL, you are only finding out about it 30 years after the fact when everyone can look back at it as history. Don't suggest that this problem was known about for that long or that you have known about it for significant amount of time.

You wrote that "GM will just cut costs by reducing reducing work force and sending production and parts manufacturing off-shore". You are correct. Does management not bare responsibility? In business they do. Your argument has been that the imports bring in cheaply priced products that the US car makers can't compete with. That is BS. Then import name plates that are selling, by huge margins, the most vehicles ARE PRICED MORE than similar American cars. Why then is GM getting there a$$ handed to them? Why do they discount the hell out of their cars and trucks??

I don't see the toyota equivalent is higher priced than the Vibe. It is cheaper than the Vibe. Now you are blaming GM management for all of GM problems. A few posts ago, you were blaming the GM workers. Make up your mind.. whose fault is it? It sound like according to your analysis, GM should be making money hand-over-fists. So.. whats the problem. LOL, GM is just losing market share, so they have to get smaller and leaner. The reason they are losing market share is American consumers are buying more off-shore products. This argument is circular with no end. The best thing to do is to buy GM instead of Toyota, then we will lose fewer domestic jobs and more money will remain in the states. It is not a complicated concept.

They are trying to win with price rather than investing and building cars that people want. Again, let me repeat this, GM doesn't build cars that people want. And they don't build enough cars that they can hold high margins on.

GM has been building SUVs and pickups for years.. Thats what people want. LOL, you just bought a big SUV to pull your boat. So it seems GM is building what we want. This statement is just a cop-out. A lame justification for people to suggest why they don't buy domestic.

Based on YOUR arguments, GM should own the US market, and they don't. Based on your arguments, GM should be making a profit, yet they lose over $2000 per vehicle. So, I would take a deeper look at your logic before you call my arguments "silly" LOL.

Seems that everyone knows why this is. Even you. You must be really grasping for straws again. GM has a huge benefits/retirement costs. Germany is in the same position with their domestic auto makers and Japan also to some extent. The only solution is to shift the production to other places where the labor is cheaper. LOL, but eventually, that labor will also become quite expensive. When the Kentucky workforce becomes too expensive, Toyota will shift production to another state or to their expanding plants in Mexico. Seems to me that GM is intending to honor their benefits and retirement commitments. Will Toyota do the same when the time comes?

Forget about Japan. It is a tiny market. Plus, if GM can't win here, they have no shot in Japan even if they welcomed with open arms. They should be going after China with a vengeance!! It is the single largest market with loads of potential.

LOL.. you didn't just say this did you? Japan is one of the biggest economies in the world, and it is tiny? Better go back and read WSJ. And GM has a huge presence in Asia and is expanding in China. The problem in Japan is the protectionist attitudes that make it impossible to compete in Japan. However this is a poor argument for why we shouldn't buy from American companies.

I don't argue that people should buy anything other than what they see as the best overall value for them individually. Blindly suggesting, lobbying, begging, that people buy American simply to support companies that can't compete is ridiculous.

This is exactly the problem we are talking about. American made products are not poor quality nor are they more expensive in the long run than cheap off-shore products. Fact is, more often than not, the cheap junk that we buy off-shore often breaks or stops working in short order and we just end up buying more of this cheap junk. We all know of this problem. It happens with tools, garden equipment, toys, ... Much of it looks the same, and it is cheaper.. however, when we take it home it breaks the first time we use it!! IT is often cheaper to buy a high quality item made in the US because it will last longer.

When I bought my Armada, I looked at numerous vehicles including the Expedition, Tahoe, etc... No other vehicle gave me the features and towing ability that I needed. Bryce, your boat is not towable, but mine is. It is 27' (31' LOA), with an 8'6" beam with twin engines. She weighs a good 9000lbs+. None of the competitors can tow that much other than the Excursion or Suburban. They both are way too big IMO to drive around daily. It is a fine vehicle, but I think the Suburban's interior looks cheap. At the time, it was the same looking interior as the trucks from the early 90s. Not sure now though.

LOL, I have been around boats all my life. I have been towing boats for years. It is funny you should suggest that a 300hp truck is any worse to drive around as a daily driver than anything made in the US.

I bought what I needed. I bought the best truck for the money. Simple as that. This truck has had FAR fewer issues than my last SUV which was a 2002 Mercury Mountaineer.

LOL, best money for a truck is not $35,000. LOL, a $20,000 pickup would easily tow that boat. With the money left over, you could get a daily driver that gets considerably gas mileage.

So based on your argument, I should have bought an Excursion or Suburban just because they are American made even thought I don't like either??

I didn't suggest that you should buy anything. Seems to me there are many more choices. You just decided to buy off-shore because of the belief that off-shore products are better. You said so yourself!!

The American consumer, for the most part, is just like me.

No they aren't.. According to a previous post.. 80% believe it is better to buy from an American company. That makes you in the 20% minority.

 

Argh!!!! I responded to everything and then lost it!!!

 

LOL ha ha ha LOL blah blah blah, he just cracks himself up

But the funny thing is someone misses the point again

One example of many regarding a missed point:

Forget about Japan. It is a tiny market. Plus, if GM can't win here, they have no shot in Japan even if they welcomed with open arms. They should be going after China with a vengeance!! It is the single largest market with loads of potential.
LOL.. you didn't just say this did you? Japan is one of the biggest economies in the world, and it is tiny? Better go back and read WSJ. And GM has a huge presence in Asia and is expanding in China. The problem in Japan is the protectionist attitudes that make it impossible to compete in Japan. However this is a poor argument for why we shouldn't buy from American companies.

What is he talking about, again? Where in his paragraph does 05PRED offer a reason not to buy American?

I know he’s talking about the Japanese automobile market, guess not everyone got it.

So the berating one is saying there’s a big market for average cars (rental companies like them I guess) and light trucks in Japan, and Japan is legislatively keeping us from penetrating it? Do you know that to be a fact? The only fact that results in North America not being able to penetrate the small Japanese market?

From numbers I’ve seen GM North America alone (no more US after NAFTA) makes enough automobiles in one year to account for all auto sales in 5 quarters of car sales in Japan. It’s a small market indeed, of demanding consumers (by the way, Toyota ranks #1 in JDPowers Japanese Reports too) In 2003, GM Worlwide sold nearly 8.6 million cars and trucks (more than twice the size of the entire Japanese market) However, GM reports that presence in the entire Asia Pacific is less than 10% of their sales.

Some rebuttals are nonsense and not factual. Some people only learn by arguing. Frustrating to say the least. Who has enough time to bang their head against that wall every day? They definitely aren’t cut out for any type of job that requires face to face with the customer. Maybe quietly running a drill press all day is all they can hold on to.

Heck, I figure if GM sells less cars at a loss of $1000 a vehicle, they’ll lose less money. I’m actually helping them if I buy from someone else!!

I personally would like to see America make the best of everything. I think we do make the best IT, aerospace, and aircraft (military and commercial) in the world. However, we have fallen behind in the automotive business, among others, and continuing to excessively reward US auto executives for running their company they way they have - just because someone thinks all the money stays in the US and that’s going to straighten the industry's problems out? It is just emotional nonsense.

Another example? (running out of time I can waste)

American made products are not poor quality nor are they more expensive in the long run than cheap off-shore products.

Here’s some proof to some of that some are wrong about the autos anyway, remember – red is bad, recalls are bad too.

http://www.autooninfo.net/Reliabilit...torVehicle.htm

Here, some more FACTS from NADA. Take 2 8-year-old 4 door sedans, like equipped and look at what you’d get retail

1998 Ford Taurus LX V6. Original MSRP $18,445, Current Retail $4,000

1998 Honda Accord LX V6 Original MSRP $19,690, Current Retail $7,700

So, even though they were within $1,200 of each other, the Honda is worth nearly twice as much now? I won't bring up anecdotal stories about each of the reliability reputations and personal experiences with these two vehicles.

Wonder why? It can’t be reliability, right?

 

05PRED500,


"Argh!!!! I responded to everything and then lost it!!!"

That is funny - I hate it when that happens! Don't give up! I mean look at the views this thread is getting.

Yes, we were under a tarp when the hail came down. We had to keep pushing it off the roof or it would have caved in for sure.

Keep jumping the Pred but don't snap that chain by holding the throttle while in the air! I think they say to break for an instant when you are floating so as not to over torque the chain.

 

Thank you propnut!!

Yes, I was talking about the auto market. It is very small relative to the potential of other economies such as China and India.

Much of Bryce's point revolves around the fact that Imports are cheaper. I did a comparison that got wiped out with my last post. I compared the Camry to the , the Vibe to the Matrix, and the Solstice to the MR-2 Spyder. In EVERY case, the GM product was less money with equivalent options. Additionally, GM discounts the hell out of their cars. Based on price, GM should kill Toyota, but they don't.

If it is not price, then what is it? Propnut points out factual information of residual value. Could it be the fact the GM builds cars that simply aren't as competitve in the US?

BTW...Talking about my business IS relevant. Small business is the backbone of the US economy. You do not here of small business shipping their jobs over seas. If you want to use what I post, feel free. Just use it factually. The auto industry is not the end all be all. What I pay my folks is very competitve and way above the us mean wage.

Bryce, you contradict yourself in many of your posts. You claim that imports are winning because they are cheaper, then you claim the US products are cheaper over the long haul.

You quoted the 80/20 statistic with people that would rather buy American, yet if that were the case, we wouldn't even be having this debate. So, yes, the American consumer is JUST LIKE ME!! Get out of Michigan a little ways and you will see the difference.

I NEVER SAID AMERICAN PRODUCTS ARE OF POOR QUALITY. I am very please with my American made Polaris' along with many other products. That does not mean that I think GM, in general, makes a good product. And, no, I do not blame the workers and never said that either. Management is always to be held accountable.

You obviously didn't read my post. I bought an Armada because it was what I needed. I also wrote it off under sec. 179 IRS code. Show me a truck for 20k that seats 8, has 4WD, leather power seats with memory, has long haul comfort, tons of storage, and of course can tow 9200lbs. Money was never an issue that I brought up other than getting the best value. I bought the vehicle that fit my needs the best. There was not an American vehicle that compared favorably including the Suburban and the Excursion. Your ignorant response was to buy a 20k truck and then a daily beater. Good answer!! Buying 2 vehicles is NOT the best value.


Toyota will not need to shift their manufacturing out of Kentucky. You have heard of "lean Manufacturing haven't you. They have a phenominal system set up here that allows the efficiencies they need. They don't hide their methods and several books have been published about their systems. Why doesn't GM try and immitate? Well, I guess they are. They do try and recruit executives from Toyota.