Why buy American
#171
06-22-2005, 04:01 PM
Why buy American
Sorry, but you are just wrong, there are very little US only products, and it is not ALWAYS better to buy from an American company.
Go ahead, get in the last word (I know you think that means you won the argument).......
Go ahead, get in the last word (I know you think that means you won the argument).......
Also I dont normally get inbetween stuff like that, but its been a pretty decent thread, and I would hate to see it turned into a pissin match.
Anyhow I get your other points, and consider yourself lucky to be with a company that is enjoying a good profitable business overseas, but dont forget all the potential issues that can cause that to change. With 60% of an american companies business coming from exports something as simple as a change in govt policy can create a great burden that can squash a smaller business.
There are plenty of examples of this happening in the past, and though any business can adapt to changing markets its not easy to revamp an entire company due to the loss of its major revenue generator, and replacing a normally very profitable export income with a low margin domestic or other isnt a piece of cake.
My personal experience with this showed that unless your able to generate enough profit dollars to sway political decisions etc your world can change overnight. This company was exporting various american made specialty products to the middle east oil business, and this was approx 75-80% of their business and extremely more profitable than their domestic and other exports.
When the worlds political climate changed with regards to the ME in the 80's and such exports were no longer legal or totally frowned on this company took a hit that it honestly could not recover from. If anyone is interested in this more just ask.
Point is that though were on a world wide market now there is an added risk that comes with the process, and even when its not an import concern that has the potential to further cause a lowering of our very own living standards there is still plenty of negative results that can be seen with exports. Loss of jobs, and everything that follows.
#172
06-22-2005, 04:13 PM
Why buy American
yeah, maybe the "get in the last word" thing was a little cynical, but I get that way with certain types of people, and I guarantee you he won't be able to resist getting in the last post. I just get tired of all the LOL crap and the berating attitude.
another thing helping our company is it's diversification.
another thing helping our company is it's diversification.
#173
06-22-2005, 04:20 PM
Why buy American
No, you don't get it or you would have such off-base comments about it and the problems GM is having. Lean manufacturing has little to do with the machinery itself, but in a SIMPLE kind of view, how it is used. If the work force does not embrace lean manufacturing principles, it is likely they will fail. It is their only chance, yet you suggest we become more like France with their failed protectionists policies (which lead to the downfall of thier nationalized industry). We've had our own issues with a union (and management too) fighting change every chance it got. GM put themselves in the position they are in, not anyone else. We could all cry why we lost our jobs, or find a way to play and win the game they way it is now. It sounds to me that they have finally realized this and are starting to act.
OK.. I really didn't want to get into it.. Lean techniques in a large AUTO manufacturing plant require most invariably a change in production equipment. This is most easily implemented in the new plants. This new technology, along with new equipment most easily happens when you build a plant or refurbish a plant. LOL, the down side is that lean techniques reduce manufacturing jobs. But if you really want to get into the discussion, we should point out that 3 out of the top 5 efficient plants in North America are GM, not Toyota. Continuing on, Toyota spends on the average 27.9 labor hours per vehicle to produce a car. GM spends an average of 34.3 labor hours to build a vehicle. LOL, the difference is 6.4 labor hours. Now if a autoworker gets 20 dollars an hour.. That only amounts to $124 per vehicle. Although this is a target that can be reduced and all the auto manufacturers are reducing this cost, it is not the significant difference between Toyota and GM. So yes, it is better to get these techniques online and yes, they are coming online. But the significance of these numbers are far overated by you guys.
We have 50 year old jig bores working just fine to lean manufacturing principals. The company I work for is doing great financially. We are a very old company that is in-tune to Kaizen, ACE, Six Sigma, lean manufacturing if you wish. 60% of our revenue comes from overseas. Our revenues have been growing at 15% per year as long as we've been aware. We also outsource the majority of our manufacturing. It works and we are tough to beat in our field. We are pretty much a monopoly in the product I specialize in. GE is another example of a company that has survived by employing these principles. We'd be in the same shape as GM if we just cried because of tariffs. GM is not effectively incorporating sound techniques and is suffering, so are many of their employees and customers. Don't blame it on unfair tariffs alone, I do agree more has to be done to level the playing field, but that is small potatoes, they have bigger issues.
LOL, this discussion has turned from "Why buy American" to lean techniques. Another great deflection from the off-shore buyers that have a bad case of off-shore-itis."
Why do you think Ford uses a Japanese transmission in thier new 60% NAFTA Ford 500? Because they haven't figured out how to reduce variation enough to produce a reliable automatic transmission. And don't tell me no, because it is a case study for lean manufacturing training.
LOL, Ford buys these transmissions because they are cheaper, not because they have not figured out how to implement lean techniques. Lean techniques have been around for 15 years, and everyone is doing it.. even Ford.
Everyone even close to the industry, except you I guess, knows China is the ticket. Thier auto market increased 80% last year. In a decade, they will be a bigger car market than the US. China made a decision not manufacture their own cars and invited car manufacturers to come over and set up shop. Jeep (American Motors) was the first. GM knows this is where its at now (if they can turn it around here and not lose any more market share), you don't. They do know the first one to be effective with an alternate fuel vehicle will be the king of the automotive world.
LOL, please point out in any of my posts that I think we should not go into China. Now were are getting into an alternative fuel discussion. Now that is interesting. However, it is also not relevant to "Why buy American".
Sorry, but you are just wrong, there are very little US only products, and it is not ALWAYS better to buy from an American company.
I am still trying to figure out what I am wrong about. And yes, it is always better to buy from an American company [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
OK.. I really didn't want to get into it.. Lean techniques in a large AUTO manufacturing plant require most invariably a change in production equipment. This is most easily implemented in the new plants. This new technology, along with new equipment most easily happens when you build a plant or refurbish a plant. LOL, the down side is that lean techniques reduce manufacturing jobs. But if you really want to get into the discussion, we should point out that 3 out of the top 5 efficient plants in North America are GM, not Toyota. Continuing on, Toyota spends on the average 27.9 labor hours per vehicle to produce a car. GM spends an average of 34.3 labor hours to build a vehicle. LOL, the difference is 6.4 labor hours. Now if a autoworker gets 20 dollars an hour.. That only amounts to $124 per vehicle. Although this is a target that can be reduced and all the auto manufacturers are reducing this cost, it is not the significant difference between Toyota and GM. So yes, it is better to get these techniques online and yes, they are coming online. But the significance of these numbers are far overated by you guys.
We have 50 year old jig bores working just fine to lean manufacturing principals. The company I work for is doing great financially. We are a very old company that is in-tune to Kaizen, ACE, Six Sigma, lean manufacturing if you wish. 60% of our revenue comes from overseas. Our revenues have been growing at 15% per year as long as we've been aware. We also outsource the majority of our manufacturing. It works and we are tough to beat in our field. We are pretty much a monopoly in the product I specialize in. GE is another example of a company that has survived by employing these principles. We'd be in the same shape as GM if we just cried because of tariffs. GM is not effectively incorporating sound techniques and is suffering, so are many of their employees and customers. Don't blame it on unfair tariffs alone, I do agree more has to be done to level the playing field, but that is small potatoes, they have bigger issues.
LOL, this discussion has turned from "Why buy American" to lean techniques. Another great deflection from the off-shore buyers that have a bad case of off-shore-itis."
Why do you think Ford uses a Japanese transmission in thier new 60% NAFTA Ford 500? Because they haven't figured out how to reduce variation enough to produce a reliable automatic transmission. And don't tell me no, because it is a case study for lean manufacturing training.
LOL, Ford buys these transmissions because they are cheaper, not because they have not figured out how to implement lean techniques. Lean techniques have been around for 15 years, and everyone is doing it.. even Ford.
Everyone even close to the industry, except you I guess, knows China is the ticket. Thier auto market increased 80% last year. In a decade, they will be a bigger car market than the US. China made a decision not manufacture their own cars and invited car manufacturers to come over and set up shop. Jeep (American Motors) was the first. GM knows this is where its at now (if they can turn it around here and not lose any more market share), you don't. They do know the first one to be effective with an alternate fuel vehicle will be the king of the automotive world.
LOL, please point out in any of my posts that I think we should not go into China. Now were are getting into an alternative fuel discussion. Now that is interesting. However, it is also not relevant to "Why buy American".
Sorry, but you are just wrong, there are very little US only products, and it is not ALWAYS better to buy from an American company.
I am still trying to figure out what I am wrong about. And yes, it is always better to buy from an American company [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
#174
06-22-2005, 04:33 PM
Why buy American
There are so many things that effect our economy, job market and quality of living etc that its really hard to see the big picture. I know people who are seriously involved in various areas of this that admit its not an easy thing to do, and that they even have to take a step back and rethink how their actions or opinions effect the various other areas.
What does concern me though is how in the past our country and we its people have proven to be the greatest etc, and weather you consider the results of various wars, or conquering obstacles or natural disasters we have always stood up to the challenge and prospered. How will this change when we lose our "fire" and give up one of our best resources, the american worker.
The basic thought here about losing jobs in manufacturing isnt a secret, and many younger Americans know this too, and therfore has increased the amount of tech based workers to almost over saturation, but there is also a near emergency need for industrial mechanics, and various craftsmen trades people due to a loss of interest and pushing our children towards the tech fields.
So were not only losing the manufacturing facilities, but also skilled labor to run them. Maybe there are enough skilled people to run the dwindling amount of facilities we have remaining, but as these workers age and eventually retire what will be left.
Sure our natural resuources and ability to fully function without a true dependence on any imports have contributed our various success in the past, but considering the above and our created or transparent dependence on cheap imports we have currently will we be able to continue to use these resources to our benfit in the future?
One thing I have noticed and this is not from a billion dollar govt funded study, but just my own experience is that as we encourage the increased import of inferior or even superior or egual low priced imports that fill our need for lower priced products that better fit our lower incomes created by the loss of good paying jobs with real benefits that we have replaced with long hours at a lesser job etc is that these countries importing them to us are seeing a good healty increase to their living standards while we watch ours decline.
Like it or not there will not be a true level playing field for imports untill we fund all the third world nations to a point that their economies are similar to our own, and they have the same costs as we do. This has already happend to Japan, and they have seen the need to expand their mfg outside the country to remain competitive and profitable due to the high cost of living there.
So until we see the labor rate in china approach $50,000.00 annual for a skilled worker and the corporations lose the advantage of saving nearly $49,000.00 per worker we are going to be stuck with our problems here. Maybe it will actually work the other way, and we will see so many inexpensive imports that were able to support our families on $1000.00 a year.
My problem is that while many suffer who or what corps are the real winners.
You dont have to be that smart to realize that this is being done to reduce costs and increase profits at the cost of our quality of life.
What does concern me though is how in the past our country and we its people have proven to be the greatest etc, and weather you consider the results of various wars, or conquering obstacles or natural disasters we have always stood up to the challenge and prospered. How will this change when we lose our "fire" and give up one of our best resources, the american worker.
The basic thought here about losing jobs in manufacturing isnt a secret, and many younger Americans know this too, and therfore has increased the amount of tech based workers to almost over saturation, but there is also a near emergency need for industrial mechanics, and various craftsmen trades people due to a loss of interest and pushing our children towards the tech fields.
So were not only losing the manufacturing facilities, but also skilled labor to run them. Maybe there are enough skilled people to run the dwindling amount of facilities we have remaining, but as these workers age and eventually retire what will be left.
Sure our natural resuources and ability to fully function without a true dependence on any imports have contributed our various success in the past, but considering the above and our created or transparent dependence on cheap imports we have currently will we be able to continue to use these resources to our benfit in the future?
One thing I have noticed and this is not from a billion dollar govt funded study, but just my own experience is that as we encourage the increased import of inferior or even superior or egual low priced imports that fill our need for lower priced products that better fit our lower incomes created by the loss of good paying jobs with real benefits that we have replaced with long hours at a lesser job etc is that these countries importing them to us are seeing a good healty increase to their living standards while we watch ours decline.
Like it or not there will not be a true level playing field for imports untill we fund all the third world nations to a point that their economies are similar to our own, and they have the same costs as we do. This has already happend to Japan, and they have seen the need to expand their mfg outside the country to remain competitive and profitable due to the high cost of living there.
So until we see the labor rate in china approach $50,000.00 annual for a skilled worker and the corporations lose the advantage of saving nearly $49,000.00 per worker we are going to be stuck with our problems here. Maybe it will actually work the other way, and we will see so many inexpensive imports that were able to support our families on $1000.00 a year.
My problem is that while many suffer who or what corps are the real winners.
You dont have to be that smart to realize that this is being done to reduce costs and increase profits at the cost of our quality of life.
#175
06-22-2005, 04:37 PM
#176
06-22-2005, 04:44 PM
Why buy American
Sorry but I am not buying into the manufacturing process issue
For more than a little while the US has been producing the technology, and many of our manufacturers have been implementing it very effeciently.
When you really get right down to it everything thats being discussed comes back to labor rates, cost of living and living standards in the chosen country, and the combination of tax or tax breaks and environmental costs.
When you have to pay your people and provide them with benefits and a pension (what all us jobs should offer btw) your costs will be considerably more, and when they live in a more expensive region of one of the worlds most modernized and developed nations (The US, Germany, Japan, etc etc etc) there is a large cost involved.
When you move your mfg to a country where the average weekely wage is only a fraction of the hourly wage in the US and offer little or no benefits, and dump everything out back, the cost savings are insane.
Funny thing is that what gets sold in china for .002 each somehow ends up costing 2.00 here. Damn thats a large margin.
For more than a little while the US has been producing the technology, and many of our manufacturers have been implementing it very effeciently.
When you really get right down to it everything thats being discussed comes back to labor rates, cost of living and living standards in the chosen country, and the combination of tax or tax breaks and environmental costs.
When you have to pay your people and provide them with benefits and a pension (what all us jobs should offer btw) your costs will be considerably more, and when they live in a more expensive region of one of the worlds most modernized and developed nations (The US, Germany, Japan, etc etc etc) there is a large cost involved.
When you move your mfg to a country where the average weekely wage is only a fraction of the hourly wage in the US and offer little or no benefits, and dump everything out back, the cost savings are insane.
Funny thing is that what gets sold in china for .002 each somehow ends up costing 2.00 here. Damn thats a large margin.
#177
06-22-2005, 04:53 PM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: propnut
where are you wrong?
Walmart is an American Company
I am still trying to figure out what I am wrong about. And yes, it is always better to buy from an American company
Walmart is an American Company
You had to go and mention wally mart [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
GRRRRRRRRRRR
This one is a real winner isnt it. I really dont want to get into all the problems they have caused, both by their importing of junk, and crushing US suppliers but will list a couple.
This is one of the replacemnt industries I spoke of much earlier in the thread, and though they do provide employment of many thousands of people (look out as online purchases increase) and some fitting to the job and really need it etc their cost cutting techniques from within and various labor practices make them beyond undesirable.
Since were really talking imports and jobs lets look at the reported mix of us and import items. Dont quote me but I think it was 10% domestic, and 90% import. From what I can see from the stores themselves it may not actually be as high, but what I do see is that they are not giving anything away and their various private lable items must be showing a margin in the 10,000% range considering what this stuff costs by the single conatainer from china.
Props to them for their success, but shame on them for taking advantage of the american worker and few remaining american manufacturers.
OH and your original quote, I think he was referring to manufacturing LOL
#178
06-22-2005, 04:56 PM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: propnut
where are you wrong?
Walmart is an American Company
I am still trying to figure out what I am wrong about. And yes, it is always better to buy from an American company
Walmart is an American Company
#179
06-22-2005, 05:07 PM
#180
06-22-2005, 05:10 PM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: 440EX026
There are so many things that effect our economy, job market and quality of living etc that its really hard to see the big picture. I know people who are seriously involved in various areas of this that admit its not an easy thing to do, and that they even have to take a step back and rethink how their actions or opinions effect the various other areas.
What does concern me though is how in the past our country and we its people have proven to be the greatest etc, and weather you consider the results of various wars, or conquering obstacles or natural disasters we have always stood up to the challenge and prospered. How will this change when we lose our "fire" and give up one of our best resources, the american worker.
IMO, there is no chance that we will "lose our fire". As you correctly stated, we have successfullyovercome many obstacles. Like other challenges and changes in our economy and industries, we will overcome by becoming more global, by holding strong on many of our other up and coming industries, and with new technology. Countries such as China are very weak at innovation. They are, however, good at basic, mundain manufacturing.
The basic thought here about losing jobs in manufacturing isnt a secret, and many younger Americans know this too, and therfore has increased the amount of tech based workers to almost over saturation, but there is also a near emergency need for industrial mechanics, and various craftsmen trades people due to a loss of interest and pushing our children towards the tech fields.
Like every other market based statistic, people will change the focus of learning and go into needed fields. A perfect example is nursing. In the mid to late 90s, there was an over saturation of nurses. Now, there is somewhat of a shortage. Nurses can make 6 figure incomes in some cities. Eventually, it will level off again. So, I don't think it is at all an emergency at this point.
So were not only losing the manufacturing facilities, but also skilled labor to run them. Maybe there are enough skilled people to run the dwindling amount of facilities we have remaining, but as these workers age and eventually retire what will be left.
Again, because we are a market driven society, there will always be enough people to work these positions. If there aren't, the salaries will go up in order to attact workers. In some cities, McDonalds pays as much as $10.00 per hour to new non experienced workers to attract them.
Sure our natural resuources and ability to fully function without a true dependence on any imports have contributed our various success in the past, but considering the above and our created or transparent dependence on cheap imports we have currently will we be able to continue to use these resources to our benfit in the future?
There are other side benefits of imports. Inflation is kept in check which gives American workers more diposable income. Businesses that sell or use these products make more money which allows for higher salaries and more growth. Bryce will disagree, but it also helps to open foriegn markets for us.
One thing I have noticed and this is not from a billion dollar govt funded study, but just my own experience is that as we encourage the increased import of inferior or even superior or egual low priced imports that fill our need for lower priced products that better fit our lower incomes created by the loss of good paying jobs with real benefits that we have replaced with long hours at a lesser job etc is that these countries importing them to us are seeing a good healty increase to their living standards while we watch ours decline.
This is a result of propaganda. US wages ARE NOT dropping like reported in the media. Sure, some sectors have lower wages. But, the auto industry which has been a huge topic here is not. The UAW sees to that. This is why I have a problem with unions. They protect all workers regardless of whether the need or deserve it. It is extremely difficult to fire people. Pay is, IMO, too high for many positions that are not skilled positions. Pay is not based on performance. You can't earn more for working harder. You can't easily move up when deserved. And, worst of all, people that are not good workers make the same as great workers.
Like it or not there will not be a true level playing field for imports untill we fund all the third world nations to a point that their economies are similar to our own, and they have the same costs as we do. This has already happend to Japan, and they have seen the need to expand their mfg outside the country to remain competitive and profitable due to the high cost of living there.
There is some truth to this. But, that is what happens when other countries adopt capitalistic principles.
So until we see the labor rate in china approach $50,000.00 annual for a skilled worker and the corporations lose the advantage of saving nearly $49,000.00 per worker we are going to be stuck with our problems here. Maybe it will actually work the other way, and we will see so many inexpensive imports that were able to support our families on $1000.00 a year.
Our workforce will shift and incomes will continue to rise as they have for our entire history of our country. The quality of life will also continue to improve.
My problem is that while many suffer who or what corps are the real winners.
You dont have to be that smart to realize that this is being done to reduce costs and increase profits at the cost of our quality of life.
There are so many things that effect our economy, job market and quality of living etc that its really hard to see the big picture. I know people who are seriously involved in various areas of this that admit its not an easy thing to do, and that they even have to take a step back and rethink how their actions or opinions effect the various other areas.
What does concern me though is how in the past our country and we its people have proven to be the greatest etc, and weather you consider the results of various wars, or conquering obstacles or natural disasters we have always stood up to the challenge and prospered. How will this change when we lose our "fire" and give up one of our best resources, the american worker.
IMO, there is no chance that we will "lose our fire". As you correctly stated, we have successfullyovercome many obstacles. Like other challenges and changes in our economy and industries, we will overcome by becoming more global, by holding strong on many of our other up and coming industries, and with new technology. Countries such as China are very weak at innovation. They are, however, good at basic, mundain manufacturing.
The basic thought here about losing jobs in manufacturing isnt a secret, and many younger Americans know this too, and therfore has increased the amount of tech based workers to almost over saturation, but there is also a near emergency need for industrial mechanics, and various craftsmen trades people due to a loss of interest and pushing our children towards the tech fields.
Like every other market based statistic, people will change the focus of learning and go into needed fields. A perfect example is nursing. In the mid to late 90s, there was an over saturation of nurses. Now, there is somewhat of a shortage. Nurses can make 6 figure incomes in some cities. Eventually, it will level off again. So, I don't think it is at all an emergency at this point.
So were not only losing the manufacturing facilities, but also skilled labor to run them. Maybe there are enough skilled people to run the dwindling amount of facilities we have remaining, but as these workers age and eventually retire what will be left.
Again, because we are a market driven society, there will always be enough people to work these positions. If there aren't, the salaries will go up in order to attact workers. In some cities, McDonalds pays as much as $10.00 per hour to new non experienced workers to attract them.
Sure our natural resuources and ability to fully function without a true dependence on any imports have contributed our various success in the past, but considering the above and our created or transparent dependence on cheap imports we have currently will we be able to continue to use these resources to our benfit in the future?
There are other side benefits of imports. Inflation is kept in check which gives American workers more diposable income. Businesses that sell or use these products make more money which allows for higher salaries and more growth. Bryce will disagree, but it also helps to open foriegn markets for us.
One thing I have noticed and this is not from a billion dollar govt funded study, but just my own experience is that as we encourage the increased import of inferior or even superior or egual low priced imports that fill our need for lower priced products that better fit our lower incomes created by the loss of good paying jobs with real benefits that we have replaced with long hours at a lesser job etc is that these countries importing them to us are seeing a good healty increase to their living standards while we watch ours decline.
This is a result of propaganda. US wages ARE NOT dropping like reported in the media. Sure, some sectors have lower wages. But, the auto industry which has been a huge topic here is not. The UAW sees to that. This is why I have a problem with unions. They protect all workers regardless of whether the need or deserve it. It is extremely difficult to fire people. Pay is, IMO, too high for many positions that are not skilled positions. Pay is not based on performance. You can't earn more for working harder. You can't easily move up when deserved. And, worst of all, people that are not good workers make the same as great workers.
Like it or not there will not be a true level playing field for imports untill we fund all the third world nations to a point that their economies are similar to our own, and they have the same costs as we do. This has already happend to Japan, and they have seen the need to expand their mfg outside the country to remain competitive and profitable due to the high cost of living there.
There is some truth to this. But, that is what happens when other countries adopt capitalistic principles.
So until we see the labor rate in china approach $50,000.00 annual for a skilled worker and the corporations lose the advantage of saving nearly $49,000.00 per worker we are going to be stuck with our problems here. Maybe it will actually work the other way, and we will see so many inexpensive imports that were able to support our families on $1000.00 a year.
Our workforce will shift and incomes will continue to rise as they have for our entire history of our country. The quality of life will also continue to improve.
My problem is that while many suffer who or what corps are the real winners.
You dont have to be that smart to realize that this is being done to reduce costs and increase profits at the cost of our quality of life.
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. They make a lot of sense and I respect you comments and opinions.