Why buy American
#61
06-06-2005, 01:57 AM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: BryceGTX
LOL, you were the one that suggested that I was an isolationist.. I just proved you wrong by pointing out that I was not an isolationist because I advocated selling to foriegn countries. Seems you are confusing yourself.
Much of what you said was that of an isolationist, hence the contrdiction. I am not out to prove anything. I am simply exchanging ideas.
I never said anyone was taking our jobs.. The whole discussion is "Why buy American", not where do our jobs go.. You seem to be getting sid tracked. Please point out this historical data that says that a shrinking or lost industry is replaced with a high tech industry. I am not at all aware of this effect. Maybe your US history was different than mine. So what high tech industry replaced the huge textile industry? Hmm... I don't see that Toyota has created any more inovative vehicles than any US company. Maybe you need to point out specific examples where Toyota makes something that is a dramitic advantage. Just because Camry out sells anything does not make it inovative. LOL, it may be popular. But this I attibute more to off-shore-itis. That being the opinion that anything made in Japan or Europe is somehow better than anything made in the US. The Chrysler Sebring convertible is the highest selling convertible; but it is hardy inovative.
I love your statement "Our industry is slow moving and over bloated". So does this statement mean that our workers are overpaid and have very good benifits.. So we should replace them with jobs that pay less and less benifits?? What the heck happens to the standard of living when we accept lower paying jobs? The only one that gains in that scenario is the guy at the top. Oh, yea.... I forgot YOU ARE THAT GUY AT THE TOP !!
Bottom line. Companies like GM are losing over $2000 per car sold in the US while Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all make over $1200 per car. Now I learned in college...scratch that...highschool that businesses need to make a profit to survive. So, yes, I think many manufacturing are overpaid and with GMs and UAWs own admission, the benefits are too high. All this while not building a high enough number of quality inovative vehicles. The are exceptions of course...some of the trucks, Corvettes, the Solstice, a few Cadilacs, etc... The Camry's claim to fame has never been inovation. It has ALWAYS been quality, reliability, and tank like construction.
You shouldn't accept lower paying jobs!! You should do as I and many others have, be creative, go to school, start a business, find a better job, learn a new skill, whatever excites you. Yes, I am the guy at the top and I worked my *** of to get here. I put in 12 years in the corporate environment moving up and learning every possible skill I could. That gave me the confidence to risk my own money to start this company 5 years ago.
I gave examples before about how we have evolved from antiquated labor intensive jobs to streamline systems including farming, manufacturing (has come a long way since Henry Ford), military superiority, without even mentioning computer thechnology the list goes on and on.
The above statement is an idealistic statement from an economist. It has no meaning of the real world of workers. I would like to be a fly on the wall at your fine company and see the medical and dental benifits you offer. How about the matching 401 K plan for your employees. How is their pension plan? And lets not forget the profit sharing for your employees. LMAO.... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
[b}Actually, I pay 100% of my fulltime employees medical plan costs and I have many other creative benefits such as SEPs and use of a laptop that turns into ownership of the laptop after 9 months (for sales people). What you and many unions simply don't understand is that these benefits, pensions, ridiculous protections of bad employees, cost huge amounts of money which results in further deficits for a company already losing money. So, who really benefits from the over inflated benefits and wages if and when GM goes bankrupt? The UAW loses all power in bankruptcy court. A judge orders the company to make major job cuts, salary cuts, benefit cuts, etc... Then the entire country gets hurt all because a company was bullied by the union. Don't get me wrong, at on time, unions were helpful.[/b]
Ha! Ha! I am by no means an economist. But, I do now how to apply the basics to real world scenarios and my business.
Hmm.. Seems you didn't read my statement. Instead of saving an industry by reducing manufacturing cost by some inovative way, it is your suggestion we just ship the whole thing off-shore. Now I know why I am arguing with you because of this strange view. That being that it is somehow ok to ship all manufacturing off shore. Then add insult to injury you buy from another foreign manufacturer.
No...I am not so simple minded that I think there is but on solution. I beleive there are many. But, reducing manufacturing costs DOES get rid of American jobs indirectly.
Good that we have some agreement here.. However, just because we have all kinds of really great jobs, does not mean that we need to simply throw away our manufacturing jobs. The problem is that too many people will never understand computer programming or electrical engineering or business management. Those people also need jobs. When you ship all those jobs off shore, these people are left with menial jobs. And please don't point out that same old BS from economics that these people should be simply retrained and instead end up waiting on tables.
[b]Ahh...so your answer is to keep manufacturing jobs here so that are citizens will pay higher prices for products they can't afford from a company that cant stand up to it's own unions and tell them that making a profit is not only good, but shareholders(owners) demand it.
What??? 1) You are buying from off-shore companies to keep inflation down? Let see, you replace high paying US jobs with low paying, low benifits foreign jobs. Yes, I guess if enough Americans lose their jobs, we will keep inflation down. Good suggestion. 2) It puts more money in the hands of the consumer.
In America we simply can't build enough high quality pieces at a low enough cost to keep the cost (inflation) down. When presented with 2 options, an American made Car Charger that retails for $24.95 and a high quality piece made in Korea that retails for $14.95 statistically 98$ of the time, the cheaper product is chosen. Competition keeps prices down!!!! It also forces our companies to become inovative and aggressive in order to prosper.
We must have this, because we will be making less money from our lower paid foreign jobs. However, as you pointed out about, that lower cost Camry costs more. So you seem to have this one confused.
[b]Unless I mispoke, I said the Camry is MORE expensive than the other cars I mentioned, but sells considerably more.
3) Quite frankly, a high profit margin sounds like greedy corporate culture, not a good argument for your low paid workers! If you make money, you will just buy a more expensive Mercedes!!! LMAO, or invest it. When times are lean, you will cut your workforce or reduce your costs. These are no arguments for buying off-shore. If you want to support the US economy, the best way is to buy from US companies whenever possible.
You wrote a condradictory opinion here and I don't quite know where you were going. I guess you are trying to make the same point I made about needing to step it up in other markets
Much of what you said was that of an isolationist, hence the contrdiction. I am not out to prove anything. I am simply exchanging ideas.
Historically, when an industry in the US shrinks or goes away, it is replaced with better higher tech industry. Withregard to the car industry. No one is "taking" our jobs. Our industry is slow moving and over bloated. They don't build vehicles (other than trucks) that are as competitive. Take a Toyota Camry for example...It is more expensive than say a Pontiac Grand Prix, Ford Tauras, or whatever. The Toyota still out sells all of the others. While American car companies are getting brow beaten by the unions, the imports continue to improve quality and desirability. I know it will be different in Michigan, but here, people line up to work at the Toyota Camry plant. We also have 2 other major Ford plants as well. This action causes greater competition and inovation. It may also cause people to get out and do their own thing, creating their own standard of living.
I love your statement "Our industry is slow moving and over bloated". So does this statement mean that our workers are overpaid and have very good benifits.. So we should replace them with jobs that pay less and less benifits?? What the heck happens to the standard of living when we accept lower paying jobs? The only one that gains in that scenario is the guy at the top. Oh, yea.... I forgot YOU ARE THAT GUY AT THE TOP !!
Bottom line. Companies like GM are losing over $2000 per car sold in the US while Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all make over $1200 per car. Now I learned in college...scratch that...highschool that businesses need to make a profit to survive. So, yes, I think many manufacturing are overpaid and with GMs and UAWs own admission, the benefits are too high. All this while not building a high enough number of quality inovative vehicles. The are exceptions of course...some of the trucks, Corvettes, the Solstice, a few Cadilacs, etc... The Camry's claim to fame has never been inovation. It has ALWAYS been quality, reliability, and tank like construction.
You shouldn't accept lower paying jobs!! You should do as I and many others have, be creative, go to school, start a business, find a better job, learn a new skill, whatever excites you. Yes, I am the guy at the top and I worked my *** of to get here. I put in 12 years in the corporate environment moving up and learning every possible skill I could. That gave me the confidence to risk my own money to start this company 5 years ago.
I gave examples before about how we have evolved from antiquated labor intensive jobs to streamline systems including farming, manufacturing (has come a long way since Henry Ford), military superiority, without even mentioning computer thechnology the list goes on and on.
In a capitalist society, it forces people to evolve. There will ALWAYS be labor and manufacturing jobs. In my opinion, it is better to have fewer. Lets face it...The largest employer, by far, in the US is small business. Companies like mine drive the economy not manufacturing. It would be a major step back to go the other way.
[b}Actually, I pay 100% of my fulltime employees medical plan costs and I have many other creative benefits such as SEPs and use of a laptop that turns into ownership of the laptop after 9 months (for sales people). What you and many unions simply don't understand is that these benefits, pensions, ridiculous protections of bad employees, cost huge amounts of money which results in further deficits for a company already losing money. So, who really benefits from the over inflated benefits and wages if and when GM goes bankrupt? The UAW loses all power in bankruptcy court. A judge orders the company to make major job cuts, salary cuts, benefit cuts, etc... Then the entire country gets hurt all because a company was bullied by the union. Don't get me wrong, at on time, unions were helpful.[/b]
Ha! Ha! I am by no means an economist. But, I do now how to apply the basics to real world scenarios and my business.
Wouldn't the end result be the same? It would put more and more manufacturing workers out of work... This has already happened throughout our countries history through invention. The cotton gin, motorized plows, robotics in manufacturing. They all put people out of work.
No...I am not so simple minded that I think there is but on solution. I beleive there are many. But, reducing manufacturing costs DOES get rid of American jobs indirectly.
There is defintely truth to this statement. But, you are leaving out the millions of other jobs that showcase our inovation like software developement, medical research and development, computer technology. Our economy can and will thrive with fewer manufacturing jobs. BTW...Home building is manufacturing and it has been through the roof over the past several years :-)
[b]Ahh...so your answer is to keep manufacturing jobs here so that are citizens will pay higher prices for products they can't afford from a company that cant stand up to it's own unions and tell them that making a profit is not only good, but shareholders(owners) demand it.
1st benefit - It keeps inflation down which has always been an issue in the US. 2nd benefit - It puts more money in the hands of families that spend less. 3rd benefit - The give companies like mine a high margin piece to help offset tough months. (You may be amazed at what I pay for a car charger or leather case).
In America we simply can't build enough high quality pieces at a low enough cost to keep the cost (inflation) down. When presented with 2 options, an American made Car Charger that retails for $24.95 and a high quality piece made in Korea that retails for $14.95 statistically 98$ of the time, the cheaper product is chosen. Competition keeps prices down!!!! It also forces our companies to become inovative and aggressive in order to prosper.
We must have this, because we will be making less money from our lower paid foreign jobs. However, as you pointed out about, that lower cost Camry costs more. So you seem to have this one confused.
[b]Unless I mispoke, I said the Camry is MORE expensive than the other cars I mentioned, but sells considerably more.
3) Quite frankly, a high profit margin sounds like greedy corporate culture, not a good argument for your low paid workers! If you make money, you will just buy a more expensive Mercedes!!! LMAO, or invest it. When times are lean, you will cut your workforce or reduce your costs. These are no arguments for buying off-shore. If you want to support the US economy, the best way is to buy from US companies whenever possible.
BEFORE YOU INSULT ME, you may want to try and understand my business. My employees are paid based on market conditions and competition which happens to be pretty good!!! At the same time, I will make money. after all, I invested my cash to begin with along with many many 16-17 hour days. During the first 2 years, I didn't pay my self anything at all. BTW...That give me the right to buy by American made Predator and Sportsman, my Honda Accord made in Ohio, My Armada made in Mississippi, or my Honda S2000 built in Japan. Oh...I almost forgot, my 27' Regal cruiser built in Florida.
#62
06-06-2005, 01:08 PM
Why buy American
05PREDATOR500, probably the best post on this issue anyone will find in this forum, explaining the realities (as I've seen them unfold) over the 20 years I've been in the aerospace industry. The auto industry is not alone in its loss of manufacturing jobs.
In addition to your points: without foreign content, our US branded aerospace products can not legitimately compete for many foreign contracts, best product or not.
I saw the writing on the wall and got out of manufacturing 10 years ago. Best career move I've made to date.
However, it seems that some would say it's our fault that the US manufacturers have suffered the losses over the years. Demanding more for our money and getting it somewhere else, how dare us. GM marketing propaganda does not make me feel sorry for them, or want to buy a Chevy. Do I think people should boycott flying on a DeHavilland because it's not from a US manufacturer? Not at all. Does that make me un-American? No.
It's a shame it would appear you're wasting your time and effort with such sensible posts. Been there.
In addition to your points: without foreign content, our US branded aerospace products can not legitimately compete for many foreign contracts, best product or not.
I saw the writing on the wall and got out of manufacturing 10 years ago. Best career move I've made to date.
However, it seems that some would say it's our fault that the US manufacturers have suffered the losses over the years. Demanding more for our money and getting it somewhere else, how dare us. GM marketing propaganda does not make me feel sorry for them, or want to buy a Chevy. Do I think people should boycott flying on a DeHavilland because it's not from a US manufacturer? Not at all. Does that make me un-American? No.
It's a shame it would appear you're wasting your time and effort with such sensible posts. Been there.
#63
06-06-2005, 01:31 PM
Why buy American
Bottom line. Companies like GM are losing over $2000 per car sold in the US while Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all make over $1200 per car. Now I learned in college...scratch that...highschool that businesses need to make a profit to survive. So, yes, I think many manufacturing are overpaid and with GMs and UAWs own admission, the benefits are too high. All this while not building a high enough number of quality inovative vehicles. The are exceptions of course...some of the trucks, Corvettes, the Solstice, a few Cadilacs, etc... The Camry's claim to fame has never been inovation. It has ALWAYS been quality, reliability, and tank like construction.
You shouldn't accept lower paying jobs!! You should do as I and many others have, be creative, go to school, start a business, find a better job, learn a new skill, whatever excites you. Yes, I am the guy at the top and I worked my *** of to get here. I put in 12 years in the corporate environment moving up and learning every possible skill I could. That gave me the confidence to risk my own money to start this company 5 years ago.
Ha! Ha! I am by no means an economist. But, I do now how to apply the basics to real world scenarios and my business.
Ahh...so your answer is to keep manufacturing jobs here so that are citizens will pay higher prices for products they can't afford from a company that cant stand up to it's own unions and tell them that making a profit is not only good, but shareholders(owners) demand it.
In America we simply can't build enough high quality pieces at a low enough cost to keep the cost (inflation) down. When presented with 2 options, an American made Car Charger that retails for $24.95 and a high quality piece made in Korea that retails for $14.95 statistically 98$ of the time, the cheaper product is chosen. Competition keeps prices down!!!! It also forces our companies to become inovative and aggressive in order to prosper.
Ignorance is bliss. You have absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE of what it takes to build and/or operate a business. BTW...Small business in this country employes MORE people than the FORTUNE 500 list combined. Like many businesses, our main products have rather weak margins. Accessories sales help us to survive. Ofcourse, we have the expense of a no questions asked warranty and incredible service.
BEFORE YOU INSULT ME, you may want to try and understand my business. My employees are paid based on market conditions and competition which happens to be pretty good!!! At the same time, I will make money. after all, I invested my cash to begin with along with many many 16-17 hour days. During the first 2 years, I didn't pay my self anything at all. BTW...That give me the right to buy by American made Predator and Sportsman, my Honda Accord made in Ohio, My Armada made in Mississippi, or my Honda S2000 built in Japan. Oh...I almost forgot, my 27' Regal cruiser built in Florida.
BryceGTX
#66
06-06-2005, 07:08 PM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: Bill35
Bryce us flag wavers are with you brother....Bill
Bryce us flag wavers are with you brother....Bill
When i'm shopping, before I look at the price, I look where it's made, and that goes for any product in any store, even a grocery store. I buy American whenever and wherever I can. Maybe I was brought up with with more of an understanding of loyalty to our country and to our American companies. I'll gladly pay more for American owned and made products rather than something from overseas.
#67
06-06-2005, 07:38 PM
Why buy American
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Bottom line. Companies like GM are losing over $2000 per car sold in the US while Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all make over $1200 per car. Now I learned in college...scratch that...highschool that businesses need to make a profit to survive. So, yes, I think many manufacturing are overpaid and with GMs and UAWs own admission, the benefits are too high. All this while not building a high enough number of quality inovative vehicles. The are exceptions of course...some of the trucks, Corvettes, the Solstice, a few Cadilacs, etc... The Camry's claim to fame has never been inovation. It has ALWAYS been quality, reliability, and tank like construction.
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GM pays $2000 per auto for retiree benifits. Someday Toyota, Honda and Nissan will be in that same position. The reason they do not have that problem is that they are young manufactureers in the US. Now we get to the meat of the problem. You are saying that US workers are paid too high. This is how workers standard of living increases, by getting paid more. Eventually the unions will bargain for the same benifits for Toyota, Honda and Nissan workers. So your statement about Toyota's inovation better than others was miss-spoken? We can continue to argue that Camry is any better than any domestic auto. I don't see many 10-20 year old Honda, Toyota or Nissans on Michigan roads because they dissolve in Michigan winter salt. Yet the US autos don't. Must be that tanks rust easier.
If GM goes bankrupt, which is actually possible, what good does it do anyone. The company would likely be liquidated, salary and benefits would be drastically cut, and shareholders would lose everything. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan will not allow themselves to be bullied. They do a good job of creating profit and would not allow stupid decisions that would destroy their business. They, especially Toyota, are models that the big 3 try to emulate. You won't see many imports in Michigan anyway, at least I didn't when I was visiting. I am not partial to any car in particular. I just use the Camry as an example since it is the highest selling mid sized car.
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You shouldn't accept lower paying jobs!! You should do as I and many others have, be creative, go to school, start a business, find a better job, learn a new skill, whatever excites you. Yes, I am the guy at the top and I worked my *** of to get here. I put in 12 years in the corporate environment moving up and learning every possible skill I could. That gave me the confidence to risk my own money to start this company 5 years ago.
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OK, everyone should be bosses, and no one should be workers. Not sure where this is going..
Obviously this can't be the case. But, EVERYONE has the same opportunity.
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Ha! Ha! I am by no means an economist. But, I do now how to apply the basics to real world scenarios and my business.
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Good, then quit giving textbook quotes for economic woes!! Then walk in the shoes of the manufacturing sector instead of the sales sector.
Textbook? I know the manufacturing sector is near and dear to you, but it really isn't that difficult to understand. Plus, I am not the one speaking of economic woes. I think the economy is very strong and getting stronger.
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Ahh...so your answer is to keep manufacturing jobs here so that are citizens will pay higher prices for products they can't afford from a company that cant stand up to it's own unions and tell them that making a profit is not only good, but shareholders(owners) demand it.
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Your very own example suggested I should buy an over-priced Camry instead of a Grand Prix!!
No. I gave that example because people ARE WILLING to pay the price for a Camry. Good competition will bring the price of a Camry down. But, GM should not be forced to pay "fair" wages and benefits if it puts them out of business. My definition of what you and others feel is "fair" is a bad system. If you work harder than your co-workers, you can't make any more money than they do under collective bargaining. GM can't easily terminate employees that don't pull their weight. No one is able to stand out. There is no interal competition, which we agree is good. My next door neighbor has been with Ford at the Kentucky Truck Plant for 11 or so years. We talk all the time about these scenarios. He agrees that things are out of control. But, obviously, he will take everything they give him.
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In America we simply can't build enough high quality pieces at a low enough cost to keep the cost (inflation) down. When presented with 2 options, an American made Car Charger that retails for $24.95 and a high quality piece made in Korea that retails for $14.95 statistically 98% of the time, the cheaper product is chosen. Competition keeps prices down!!!! It also forces our companies to become inovative and aggressive in order to prosper.
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We were talking specifically about autos. But, lets talk about these high quality off-shore chargers. It is my experience that these developing nations products are more often than not, not high quality!! But its true competition is good. And when I see GM and Ford cars all over the roads of Japan, then I will agree more with you.
GM and Ford don't build many vehicles that meet the needs of the Japanese market. This is common knowledge. Additionally, our government doesn't do enough for fair trade. But, there is a downside to fair trade. If we don't build product that others want, they simply will not sell. Regarding import products, sure there is crap out their. Think about Hyundai. When they first launched, their cars could barely make it off the lot. Now, they have been near the top of JD power for quality. I wouldn't own one, but they are solid cars. Like it or not, import products WILL get better and better. I prefer to embrace that and be part of the upswing of the global economy. With wireless accessories, again, you are right...there are some products that are terrible. That's why I research and shop like crazy to find the best values (high quality lower price).
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Ignorance is bliss. You have absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE of what it takes to build and/or operate a business. BTW...Small business in this country employes MORE people than the FORTUNE 500 list combined. Like many businesses, our main products have rather weak margins. Accessories sales help us to survive. Ofcourse, we have the expense of a no questions asked warranty and incredible service.
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I have no problems creating a 5 year business plan to create a business. But then again, our discussion was about why it is important to buy from US companies. BTW, small businesses typically provide considerably less benifits to their employees, so it is not a step up to work for small business. Once again, what again is your employee benifits????
As I wrote in a previous post, my benefits are pretty good. They aren't as good as yours, but then again, I pay myself a lot more than the average job and I have many "business" expenses that benefit me personally.
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BEFORE YOU INSULT ME, you may want to try and understand my business. My employees are paid based on market conditions and competition which happens to be pretty good!!! At the same time, I will make money. after all, I invested my cash to begin with along with many many 16-17 hour days. During the first 2 years, I didn't pay my self anything at all. BTW...That give me the right to buy by American made Predator and Sportsman, my Honda Accord made in Ohio, My Armada made in Mississippi, or my Honda S2000 built in Japan. Oh...I almost forgot, my 27' Regal cruiser built in Florida.
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I am sorry that you feel I insulted you. However, you seem to have no real-life knowledge whatsoever about the manufacturing sector. It seems that all of your knowledge is in the service sector. Your clear stand above that US workers are over paid with too much benifits is concerning. It seems to me that US workers should have the same opportunity for good pay and benifits that anyone else gets. I don't want to comment more on your business other than the price of owning a business is long hours and hard work. But that is not the core of our discussion. The core of our discussion is that when you buy something from an off-shore company, you are sending many more dollars over seas than would have gone if you had boughten domestic. This is a fact; it cannot be disputed. This is the reason to buy from a US firm.
BryceGTX
I didn't say that US workers are overpaid and have to many entitlements...I mean benefits. I said that when employees are paid and benefitted so much that it puts a company in jeopardy, it IS too much. I see things in a fairly simple manner. If you build a quality product, people will pay more regardless of origin. Domestic cars in general are priced less than imports. If price was the only consideration, people would buy more domestics and the imports wouldn't build factories here. This would keep more jobs in manufacturing. But, it WOULD NOT reduce the unemployment rate nor would it increase the average salary of workers. An economy in general determines salaries NOT necessarily the types of jobs.
The amount of dollars you say are being sent over seas are not nearly as great as you might think. People in MANY positions make money on foriegn companies including line workers, parts workers (companies), dealership sales people and mechanics, customer service, aftermarket, corporate tax dollars...the list goes on and on. And don't forget investors. I will bet you $1 that if you invest in mutual funds either in your 401k, pension, or personally that you own stock and make money from numerous foriegn companies including Toyota.
Please don't take these comments personally. They aren't meant that way.
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Bottom line. Companies like GM are losing over $2000 per car sold in the US while Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all make over $1200 per car. Now I learned in college...scratch that...highschool that businesses need to make a profit to survive. So, yes, I think many manufacturing are overpaid and with GMs and UAWs own admission, the benefits are too high. All this while not building a high enough number of quality inovative vehicles. The are exceptions of course...some of the trucks, Corvettes, the Solstice, a few Cadilacs, etc... The Camry's claim to fame has never been inovation. It has ALWAYS been quality, reliability, and tank like construction.
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GM pays $2000 per auto for retiree benifits. Someday Toyota, Honda and Nissan will be in that same position. The reason they do not have that problem is that they are young manufactureers in the US. Now we get to the meat of the problem. You are saying that US workers are paid too high. This is how workers standard of living increases, by getting paid more. Eventually the unions will bargain for the same benifits for Toyota, Honda and Nissan workers. So your statement about Toyota's inovation better than others was miss-spoken? We can continue to argue that Camry is any better than any domestic auto. I don't see many 10-20 year old Honda, Toyota or Nissans on Michigan roads because they dissolve in Michigan winter salt. Yet the US autos don't. Must be that tanks rust easier.
If GM goes bankrupt, which is actually possible, what good does it do anyone. The company would likely be liquidated, salary and benefits would be drastically cut, and shareholders would lose everything. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan will not allow themselves to be bullied. They do a good job of creating profit and would not allow stupid decisions that would destroy their business. They, especially Toyota, are models that the big 3 try to emulate. You won't see many imports in Michigan anyway, at least I didn't when I was visiting. I am not partial to any car in particular. I just use the Camry as an example since it is the highest selling mid sized car.
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You shouldn't accept lower paying jobs!! You should do as I and many others have, be creative, go to school, start a business, find a better job, learn a new skill, whatever excites you. Yes, I am the guy at the top and I worked my *** of to get here. I put in 12 years in the corporate environment moving up and learning every possible skill I could. That gave me the confidence to risk my own money to start this company 5 years ago.
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OK, everyone should be bosses, and no one should be workers. Not sure where this is going..
Obviously this can't be the case. But, EVERYONE has the same opportunity.
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Ha! Ha! I am by no means an economist. But, I do now how to apply the basics to real world scenarios and my business.
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Good, then quit giving textbook quotes for economic woes!! Then walk in the shoes of the manufacturing sector instead of the sales sector.
Textbook? I know the manufacturing sector is near and dear to you, but it really isn't that difficult to understand. Plus, I am not the one speaking of economic woes. I think the economy is very strong and getting stronger.
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Ahh...so your answer is to keep manufacturing jobs here so that are citizens will pay higher prices for products they can't afford from a company that cant stand up to it's own unions and tell them that making a profit is not only good, but shareholders(owners) demand it.
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Your very own example suggested I should buy an over-priced Camry instead of a Grand Prix!!
No. I gave that example because people ARE WILLING to pay the price for a Camry. Good competition will bring the price of a Camry down. But, GM should not be forced to pay "fair" wages and benefits if it puts them out of business. My definition of what you and others feel is "fair" is a bad system. If you work harder than your co-workers, you can't make any more money than they do under collective bargaining. GM can't easily terminate employees that don't pull their weight. No one is able to stand out. There is no interal competition, which we agree is good. My next door neighbor has been with Ford at the Kentucky Truck Plant for 11 or so years. We talk all the time about these scenarios. He agrees that things are out of control. But, obviously, he will take everything they give him.
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In America we simply can't build enough high quality pieces at a low enough cost to keep the cost (inflation) down. When presented with 2 options, an American made Car Charger that retails for $24.95 and a high quality piece made in Korea that retails for $14.95 statistically 98% of the time, the cheaper product is chosen. Competition keeps prices down!!!! It also forces our companies to become inovative and aggressive in order to prosper.
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We were talking specifically about autos. But, lets talk about these high quality off-shore chargers. It is my experience that these developing nations products are more often than not, not high quality!! But its true competition is good. And when I see GM and Ford cars all over the roads of Japan, then I will agree more with you.
GM and Ford don't build many vehicles that meet the needs of the Japanese market. This is common knowledge. Additionally, our government doesn't do enough for fair trade. But, there is a downside to fair trade. If we don't build product that others want, they simply will not sell. Regarding import products, sure there is crap out their. Think about Hyundai. When they first launched, their cars could barely make it off the lot. Now, they have been near the top of JD power for quality. I wouldn't own one, but they are solid cars. Like it or not, import products WILL get better and better. I prefer to embrace that and be part of the upswing of the global economy. With wireless accessories, again, you are right...there are some products that are terrible. That's why I research and shop like crazy to find the best values (high quality lower price).
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Ignorance is bliss. You have absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE of what it takes to build and/or operate a business. BTW...Small business in this country employes MORE people than the FORTUNE 500 list combined. Like many businesses, our main products have rather weak margins. Accessories sales help us to survive. Ofcourse, we have the expense of a no questions asked warranty and incredible service.
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I have no problems creating a 5 year business plan to create a business. But then again, our discussion was about why it is important to buy from US companies. BTW, small businesses typically provide considerably less benifits to their employees, so it is not a step up to work for small business. Once again, what again is your employee benifits????
As I wrote in a previous post, my benefits are pretty good. They aren't as good as yours, but then again, I pay myself a lot more than the average job and I have many "business" expenses that benefit me personally.
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BEFORE YOU INSULT ME, you may want to try and understand my business. My employees are paid based on market conditions and competition which happens to be pretty good!!! At the same time, I will make money. after all, I invested my cash to begin with along with many many 16-17 hour days. During the first 2 years, I didn't pay my self anything at all. BTW...That give me the right to buy by American made Predator and Sportsman, my Honda Accord made in Ohio, My Armada made in Mississippi, or my Honda S2000 built in Japan. Oh...I almost forgot, my 27' Regal cruiser built in Florida.
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I am sorry that you feel I insulted you. However, you seem to have no real-life knowledge whatsoever about the manufacturing sector. It seems that all of your knowledge is in the service sector. Your clear stand above that US workers are over paid with too much benifits is concerning. It seems to me that US workers should have the same opportunity for good pay and benifits that anyone else gets. I don't want to comment more on your business other than the price of owning a business is long hours and hard work. But that is not the core of our discussion. The core of our discussion is that when you buy something from an off-shore company, you are sending many more dollars over seas than would have gone if you had boughten domestic. This is a fact; it cannot be disputed. This is the reason to buy from a US firm.
BryceGTX
I didn't say that US workers are overpaid and have to many entitlements...I mean benefits. I said that when employees are paid and benefitted so much that it puts a company in jeopardy, it IS too much. I see things in a fairly simple manner. If you build a quality product, people will pay more regardless of origin. Domestic cars in general are priced less than imports. If price was the only consideration, people would buy more domestics and the imports wouldn't build factories here. This would keep more jobs in manufacturing. But, it WOULD NOT reduce the unemployment rate nor would it increase the average salary of workers. An economy in general determines salaries NOT necessarily the types of jobs.
The amount of dollars you say are being sent over seas are not nearly as great as you might think. People in MANY positions make money on foriegn companies including line workers, parts workers (companies), dealership sales people and mechanics, customer service, aftermarket, corporate tax dollars...the list goes on and on. And don't forget investors. I will bet you $1 that if you invest in mutual funds either in your 401k, pension, or personally that you own stock and make money from numerous foriegn companies including Toyota.
Please don't take these comments personally. They aren't meant that way.
#68
06-06-2005, 10:06 PM
Why buy American
05PRED500,
You make some very good points. I try to buy American and I take pride in it. I was in the Army. Most all our equipment was made in the U.S.. It was good equipment and we could count on it. Outside of when Carter helped out Chrysler, our Gov. does not help out our plants, say, like the French do.
When I buy American, I invest in our form of gov., the U.S. worker, a safe place for him to work, a living wage, our environment, and our security.
You make some very good points. I try to buy American and I take pride in it. I was in the Army. Most all our equipment was made in the U.S.. It was good equipment and we could count on it. Outside of when Carter helped out Chrysler, our Gov. does not help out our plants, say, like the French do.
When I buy American, I invest in our form of gov., the U.S. worker, a safe place for him to work, a living wage, our environment, and our security.
#69
06-06-2005, 10:21 PM
Why buy American
You don't see many imports in Michigan because they do not last on the salt roads in Michigan. There may be some allegiance to the big 3; but anyone in Michigan that has owned an import knows of this problem. Its clear you would not be aware because you don't live here.
It is not likely that GM will go bankrupt. GM will transfer as much as possible to off-shore manufacturing. Just like Toyota, Honda and Nissan. They will do this to reduce production costs in response to the imports. It is a shame that they will have to do this. They will continue to ship production off-shore till the manufacturing costs in the US reduce to the point of Toyota, Honda and Nissan. From your posts, you consider this a good thing. That is one way to look at it. I consider it a further increase in the trade deficit; which is clearly a bad thing. Not sure how you can consider this an economic advantage. However, being that you produce nothing, but sell only foreign goods, I can understand your view.
GM and Ford build no vehicles for the Japanese market because the market is closed. Maybe you forgot that in your analysis.
LOL, I never said the market is not getting stronger. You assume too much. My concerns about the economy is the trade deficit. The trade deficit makes our economy not as good as it could be. Every dollar we ship over seas is a dollar that can not be spent here again. It is a dollor that cannot be taxed again. I am sure that anyone that has ever had economics can understand this. Heck most anyone can understand this.
What the heck are you talking about??? I am talking about the benifits you give your employees, not the benifits you give yourself!! LOL, what do I care as an employee what you as the owner of the company gets??
LOL, Toyota, Honda and Nissan will be in the same position in a few years. Maybe you should look to Japan.. They are in the same position there!! It comes from a mature manufacturing industry. The imports are not a higher quality product. That is exactly part of our discussion.
Yes it would reduce unemployment!! More domestic autos would be sold, built, engineered, marketed. For every manufacturing job there are 100 other jobs to support it. To build parts, assemble machinery. Boy, did you even read the post about that talks about domestic part content?
So tell me exactly how many dollars go over seas? Let me decide how many billions are not great!! Seems the trade deficit is quite high to me!!
All profits on all of these parts and manufacturing go overseas. We buy parts for the foreign cars that come from overseas. All of these dollars would all still be there if the domestic manufacturers were building the cars. Furthermore, the profits would not go overseas. In addition, since the workers are paid higher wages, federal, state and local taxs would be higher. The higher wages of the workers would be spent locally and help local enconomies. And as I am sure you remember that every dollar that goes to an employee (instead of going off shore) is respent ten times over. There is NO benifit to these off-shore companies.
I see that your employees do not have a 401k plan. Otherwise if you offered these benifits to your loyal employees, you would know that 401k plans give you the option of determining if your investment is in NYSE stocks, off shore stocks, goverment bonds........ You owe me a dollar!
Quite the contrary... Its only business!!
Once again I will point out the obvious fact that sending dollars off shore in no way helps the US economy. You can quote as many passages from any type of economics that you please... But the fact remains!!!
It is not likely that GM will go bankrupt. GM will transfer as much as possible to off-shore manufacturing. Just like Toyota, Honda and Nissan. They will do this to reduce production costs in response to the imports. It is a shame that they will have to do this. They will continue to ship production off-shore till the manufacturing costs in the US reduce to the point of Toyota, Honda and Nissan. From your posts, you consider this a good thing. That is one way to look at it. I consider it a further increase in the trade deficit; which is clearly a bad thing. Not sure how you can consider this an economic advantage. However, being that you produce nothing, but sell only foreign goods, I can understand your view.
GM and Ford build no vehicles for the Japanese market because the market is closed. Maybe you forgot that in your analysis.
Textbook? I know the manufacturing sector is near and dear to you, but it really isn't that difficult to understand. Plus, I am not the one speaking of economic woes. I think the economy is very strong and getting stronger.
As I wrote in a previous post, my benefits are pretty good. They aren't as good as yours, but then again, I pay myself a lot more than the average job and I have many "business" expenses that benefit me personally.
I didn't say that US workers are overpaid and have to many entitlements...I mean benefits. I said that when employees are paid and benefitted so much that it puts a company in jeopardy, it IS too much. I see things in a fairly simple manner. If you build a quality product, people will pay more regardless of origin. Domestic cars in general are priced less than imports. If price was the only consideration, people would buy more domestics and the imports wouldn't build factories here.
If price was the only consideration, people would buy more domestics and the imports wouldn't build factories here. This would keep more jobs in manufacturing. But, it WOULD NOT reduce the unemployment rate nor would it increase the average salary of workers. An economy in general determines salaries NOT necessarily the types of jobs.
The amount of dollars you say are being sent over seas are not nearly as great as you might think.
People in MANY positions make money on foriegn companies including line workers, parts workers (companies), dealership sales people and mechanics, customer service, aftermarket, corporate tax dollars...the list goes on and on.
I will bet you $1 that if you invest in mutual funds either in your 401k, pension, or personally that you own stock and make money from numerous foriegn companies including Toyota.
Please don't take these comments personally. They aren't meant that way.
Once again I will point out the obvious fact that sending dollars off shore in no way helps the US economy. You can quote as many passages from any type of economics that you please... But the fact remains!!!
#70
06-07-2005, 01:03 AM
Why buy American
The fact is you are dead wrong about most of what you quoted. You obviously do not understand the concept of a GLOBAL market. Yes, I would love to see the trade deficit lower but not by reducing imports. I want to see exports go up. It will dramatically increase our economy. Otherwise, we can no longer prosper as an island.
When I spoke of what I get in benefits, it is only a representation of success which IS passed on to my employees. They are smart enough to recognize that a 401k is NOT the end all. My employees are among the highest paid in the industry. Many of them are considered contractors which, if properly administered, is a great benefit for both parties from a tax standpoint.
I am really not sure which textbooks you think I am quoting from, but you should really read more financial periodicals. They give great CURRENT information. It is not the 70s any longer and world trade is the way of the future.
The current unemployment rate is only 5.1%, which is relatively low. How exactly would shutting out world trade result in SIGNIFICANTLY lower unemployment. Manufacturing is but one sector. Seriously...think about it.
Obviously you do realize that manufacturers are required to post US content percentage for EVERY car, right? Do a little research on moth domestic and import vehicles. The line has been blurred by both.
I am well aware of the administration of 401Ks. However, anyone that has 100% individual stocks in their portfolio is an idiot. Most mutual funds have hundreds of holdings so check again. It is HIGHLY likely the you have an import automaker in a large cap fund or international fund. BTW...Toyota is one of the most cash rich companies in the world with over $19 billion in cash on their balance sheet. I have read $1.5 billion is in cash. How much of Toyota do you think is owned by US citizens?? Contrast that with GM. People stand in line to work at the Toyota plant here in Georgetown, KY.
If you put all US auto manufacturing workers on commission based on quality, quantity sold, customer satisfaction, buyer loyalty, and most of all profitability the industry would be saved in a year. Otherwise, people will continue to pay more money for imports. As it stands, Ford and GM make progress and then they fall back behind in a rollercoaster cycle. They need to step up efforts in all aspects to compete. The imports are even starting to eat away at the strongest segment...trucks.
Simply preaching "Buy America" isn't going to do it anymore for the average consumer anymore.
BTW...I sell many American products especially my high end audio equipment and as much as possible in wireless with Nextel/Motorola-sort-of US made).
When I spoke of what I get in benefits, it is only a representation of success which IS passed on to my employees. They are smart enough to recognize that a 401k is NOT the end all. My employees are among the highest paid in the industry. Many of them are considered contractors which, if properly administered, is a great benefit for both parties from a tax standpoint.
I am really not sure which textbooks you think I am quoting from, but you should really read more financial periodicals. They give great CURRENT information. It is not the 70s any longer and world trade is the way of the future.
The current unemployment rate is only 5.1%, which is relatively low. How exactly would shutting out world trade result in SIGNIFICANTLY lower unemployment. Manufacturing is but one sector. Seriously...think about it.
Obviously you do realize that manufacturers are required to post US content percentage for EVERY car, right? Do a little research on moth domestic and import vehicles. The line has been blurred by both.
I am well aware of the administration of 401Ks. However, anyone that has 100% individual stocks in their portfolio is an idiot. Most mutual funds have hundreds of holdings so check again. It is HIGHLY likely the you have an import automaker in a large cap fund or international fund. BTW...Toyota is one of the most cash rich companies in the world with over $19 billion in cash on their balance sheet. I have read $1.5 billion is in cash. How much of Toyota do you think is owned by US citizens?? Contrast that with GM. People stand in line to work at the Toyota plant here in Georgetown, KY.
If you put all US auto manufacturing workers on commission based on quality, quantity sold, customer satisfaction, buyer loyalty, and most of all profitability the industry would be saved in a year. Otherwise, people will continue to pay more money for imports. As it stands, Ford and GM make progress and then they fall back behind in a rollercoaster cycle. They need to step up efforts in all aspects to compete. The imports are even starting to eat away at the strongest segment...trucks.
Simply preaching "Buy America" isn't going to do it anymore for the average consumer anymore.
BTW...I sell many American products especially my high end audio equipment and as much as possible in wireless with Nextel/Motorola-sort-of US made).