Rap Exhaust - 14Mins, Velocity, Airraptor, Raptor720, Zombie
#11
08-26-2003, 12:44 AM
Rap Exhaust - 14Mins, Velocity, Airraptor, Raptor720, Zombie
Firstly I don't think I am an expert, but here's my 2cents. I run a modified Graydon Proline. The CT and Graydon are just about the same, the CT is about 2 inches longer on the Silencer. That gives you more top end, shorter gives more tourque. I have had the Alien and the CT/Graydon. For a nonbuilt motor I like the Alien. Some guys have had luck with the Sparks pipe. I think the CT's/Graydon are good for Built motors for the sheer size of the header pipes. I think this might be too much flow and not enough backpressure for a stock motor. At the dyno time the Alien made 4 more hp than the CT on a bike with minimal headwork. so my assessment would be an Alien or Sparks. If planning on building the bike a graydon or CT. Thats just what I've expierenced. As for the rest of the pipes, I know nothing about them. Good luck and hope I helped. Rob
#12
08-26-2003, 01:14 AM
Rap Exhaust - 14Mins, Velocity, Airraptor, Raptor720, Zombie
What do i think??
Personally i do not like disc systems, but they are tuneable as you grow.
I have tried these full systems, trinity, HMF, mbrp, Mr.Bills, yoshi
I have had these slip-ons, mbrp, gyrt, t-4
The worst to me would be trinity because the dual headpipes to the rear of the quad does not work. I would throw the DMC in there also. I thought the trinity was weak on the bottom and did not produce high enough rpms.
If cost is a issue the full HMF pipe i thought was good but loud. The fit and finish was not perfect but the pipe made good power overall. I like the mbrp "fullbore" but if you do not have enough motor the biggerheadpipe will rob power from you. The Bills was okay although i did not keep it on my quad but a few weeks.
If you just want more power at a good price i am inclined to go with raptor720. Stock headpipe with gyrt on it. Before i ever built my quad i had a gyrt slip-on and crafty had a T-4. I won all the races. On the dyno crafty made 2 more peak HP but the gyrt had a better curve from top to bottom and it showed at the strip.
You could build a quad that would run circles around the full systems quads for the same money with just a slip-on (gyrt), pro-flow and hot cams stage 1
I have seen enough raptors run all the pipes out there and never recall saying XXX pipe made the difference. I am not a fan of sparks pipes although i think Curtis is a great builder. Even he moddifies his exhaust that he runs on his built motors.
We have spend many, many days in my pasture running raptors and the on thing that we have noticed is that the bigger head pipe on the mbrp "full bore" starts to come into play at the 400 foot mark compared to the regular head pipe when 2 identical quads run. We did that and switched pipes back and forth.
One trend that i have noticed is that the yoshi pipes seem to be dissapearing from my friends raptors. Seemed like everyone was running a yoshi last year and they have changed this year. For a disc system the gradon/ct looks good and performs well. I do not like the way CT claimed 50hp. lol
So there you go, my thoughts.
The condensed verision- get a slip-on (mbrp or gyrt) and leave the rest alone. If you got to have a full system for the looks get the regular mbrp.
If you plan to do motor mods get the...............
Oh just pick the one that you like the looks of and dial it in.
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Personally i do not like disc systems, but they are tuneable as you grow.
I have tried these full systems, trinity, HMF, mbrp, Mr.Bills, yoshi
I have had these slip-ons, mbrp, gyrt, t-4
The worst to me would be trinity because the dual headpipes to the rear of the quad does not work. I would throw the DMC in there also. I thought the trinity was weak on the bottom and did not produce high enough rpms.
If cost is a issue the full HMF pipe i thought was good but loud. The fit and finish was not perfect but the pipe made good power overall. I like the mbrp "fullbore" but if you do not have enough motor the biggerheadpipe will rob power from you. The Bills was okay although i did not keep it on my quad but a few weeks.
If you just want more power at a good price i am inclined to go with raptor720. Stock headpipe with gyrt on it. Before i ever built my quad i had a gyrt slip-on and crafty had a T-4. I won all the races. On the dyno crafty made 2 more peak HP but the gyrt had a better curve from top to bottom and it showed at the strip.
You could build a quad that would run circles around the full systems quads for the same money with just a slip-on (gyrt), pro-flow and hot cams stage 1
I have seen enough raptors run all the pipes out there and never recall saying XXX pipe made the difference. I am not a fan of sparks pipes although i think Curtis is a great builder. Even he moddifies his exhaust that he runs on his built motors.
We have spend many, many days in my pasture running raptors and the on thing that we have noticed is that the bigger head pipe on the mbrp "full bore" starts to come into play at the 400 foot mark compared to the regular head pipe when 2 identical quads run. We did that and switched pipes back and forth.
One trend that i have noticed is that the yoshi pipes seem to be dissapearing from my friends raptors. Seemed like everyone was running a yoshi last year and they have changed this year. For a disc system the gradon/ct looks good and performs well. I do not like the way CT claimed 50hp. lol
So there you go, my thoughts.
The condensed verision- get a slip-on (mbrp or gyrt) and leave the rest alone. If you got to have a full system for the looks get the regular mbrp.
If you plan to do motor mods get the...............
Oh just pick the one that you like the looks of and dial it in.
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
#14
08-26-2003, 02:33 AM
Rap Exhaust - 14Mins, Velocity, Airraptor, Raptor720, Zombie
Here's My take on the pipes I had in the past and where I felt they performed the best in order from the first pipe I bought to the last:
Big Gun = (air box mods done only) Fit & finish was poor - added decent mid range with a lack of buttom and top end power.
CT (open end cap) = (air box mods done only) Fit & finish was great - completely robbed the bike of all buttom and mid range power and added a little on the big end.
Bill's Pipe (Mr. Bills Pipe < LOL) = (mild internal mods) = Fit & Finish was great - Added a ton of low to mid range power but seemed to lack on the big end. The Loudest Pipe I've ever heard next to a drag pipe.
CT w/supertrap 9-discs (was talked into it lol) = (mild internal mods) Fit & finish was great - Seemed to work alot better on a built motor than on a stocker.
Graydon Proline w/supertrapp 21-discs = (Extreme Motor mods - drag motor) Fit & Finish was great - This pipe with the cam & headwork that was performed on "TUNED" worked very well and allowed the bike to rev peak HP all the way to rev lim.
Picking out a pipe on a stocker raptor is probably easier than finding one for a highly modded one as there are lots of choices & you will be pretty happy with the one you finally decide on due to the stock exhaust being all choked up.
Jay
Big Gun = (air box mods done only) Fit & finish was poor - added decent mid range with a lack of buttom and top end power.
CT (open end cap) = (air box mods done only) Fit & finish was great - completely robbed the bike of all buttom and mid range power and added a little on the big end.
Bill's Pipe (Mr. Bills Pipe < LOL) = (mild internal mods) = Fit & Finish was great - Added a ton of low to mid range power but seemed to lack on the big end. The Loudest Pipe I've ever heard next to a drag pipe.
CT w/supertrap 9-discs (was talked into it lol) = (mild internal mods) Fit & finish was great - Seemed to work alot better on a built motor than on a stocker.
Graydon Proline w/supertrapp 21-discs = (Extreme Motor mods - drag motor) Fit & Finish was great - This pipe with the cam & headwork that was performed on "TUNED" worked very well and allowed the bike to rev peak HP all the way to rev lim.
Picking out a pipe on a stocker raptor is probably easier than finding one for a highly modded one as there are lots of choices & you will be pretty happy with the one you finally decide on due to the stock exhaust being all choked up.
Jay
#15
08-26-2003, 03:48 AM
#16
08-26-2003, 10:58 AM
#17
08-26-2003, 02:22 PM
Rap Exhaust - 14Mins, Velocity, Airraptor, Raptor720, Zombie
14 mins and veloc both have a pretty good idea of what works. These two guys have spent hours testing various brands of pipes and other parts (without any consideration to brand loyalty). I have no problem with what they say.
In my opinion, I still direct people to the GYTR or HMF tip with a stock head pipe or GYTR head pipe. This assumes that no carb or cam changes are being made. Obviously, you must fix the air box with a good K&N conversion and remove the rubber snorkel. Jetting goes without saying. To date, no pipe or engine builder has ever proven my comments/theories/results wrong. Massive performance engines might be a different story but I still find myself using the GYTR.
For 95% of the riders, the above-mentioned configuration is all they will ever need (except new exhaust packing and ear plugs every 10+ hours).
The idea of back pressure and pipe size factors in but not as the story is usually told. When the exhaust valve opens, for a time, the intake valve is also open. This is called valve overlap. Overlap is critical to the performance of the engine. When the exhaust gas pulse blasts into the exhaust pipe, behind it follows a vacuum. That vacuum, during valve overlap, helps pull additional fuel/air into the cylinder and provides the proven torque increase. That is where the pipe builders have been going wrong. The pipe builder must BS the public into believing that a bigger head pipe is needed on every machine or they will not make the big money.
When you use the large diameter pipe, the exhaust pulse moves slower than in a smaller pipe with the same volume of exhaust gas (just like a large and small garden hose). In addition to the diameter, a thin gauge head pipe will allow too much heat to escape resulting in slower exhaust gas movement (that is why ceramic coatings may help with some engine configurations). [Caveat: Don't ceramic coat stainless –it expands and contracts so much that the ceramic will fracture.]
The slow movement of exhaust gas on the thin pipe or large pipe prevents the exhaust from pulling in as much additional fuel/air during valve overlap as the smaller thicker or coated pipe. The result is lower torque in the low-mid rpm range. If you want that extra 3 hp at 8,500rpm, go for the full system. If you want the greater torque from 2-6,000 rpm, the stock head pipe is the way to go. In my book, I see no need for the 3 hp since the engine is not operated at that rpm for any length of time. You may have your own opinion.
footnote: Exposing CT for the Dirt Wheels Raptor pipe shoot out was a must. Can you imagine how much money CT made as a result of the shoot out? I know they placed a massive pipe order just before the article hit the streets. That was, in my opinion, the biggest load of BS and misleading testing the public has ever been forced to swallow. The funny thing is that Dirt Wheels is still pissed that I helped uncovered the BS. As a result, they keep trying to toast Trinity -- as if I was their hired gun.
To give you an idea of how pissed DW is, look no further than the recent DW mag article that talked about Jeremy Schell's great performance on the Trinity/Factory Kawasaki Production Pro ATV. Instead of giving credit to Trinity and Jeremy in a professional manner, DW elected to call Trinity Racing "Trailer Trash Racing." According to DW, it was all in fun but then brought up my blast about the Raptor pipe shoot out article as if they were now even!
Some of these threads have helped educate the public to an extent that the BS can be exposed. The Mags and builders must now be careful of the highly educated watch dog groups found here at the Connection.
In my opinion, I still direct people to the GYTR or HMF tip with a stock head pipe or GYTR head pipe. This assumes that no carb or cam changes are being made. Obviously, you must fix the air box with a good K&N conversion and remove the rubber snorkel. Jetting goes without saying. To date, no pipe or engine builder has ever proven my comments/theories/results wrong. Massive performance engines might be a different story but I still find myself using the GYTR.
For 95% of the riders, the above-mentioned configuration is all they will ever need (except new exhaust packing and ear plugs every 10+ hours).
The idea of back pressure and pipe size factors in but not as the story is usually told. When the exhaust valve opens, for a time, the intake valve is also open. This is called valve overlap. Overlap is critical to the performance of the engine. When the exhaust gas pulse blasts into the exhaust pipe, behind it follows a vacuum. That vacuum, during valve overlap, helps pull additional fuel/air into the cylinder and provides the proven torque increase. That is where the pipe builders have been going wrong. The pipe builder must BS the public into believing that a bigger head pipe is needed on every machine or they will not make the big money.
When you use the large diameter pipe, the exhaust pulse moves slower than in a smaller pipe with the same volume of exhaust gas (just like a large and small garden hose). In addition to the diameter, a thin gauge head pipe will allow too much heat to escape resulting in slower exhaust gas movement (that is why ceramic coatings may help with some engine configurations). [Caveat: Don't ceramic coat stainless –it expands and contracts so much that the ceramic will fracture.]
The slow movement of exhaust gas on the thin pipe or large pipe prevents the exhaust from pulling in as much additional fuel/air during valve overlap as the smaller thicker or coated pipe. The result is lower torque in the low-mid rpm range. If you want that extra 3 hp at 8,500rpm, go for the full system. If you want the greater torque from 2-6,000 rpm, the stock head pipe is the way to go. In my book, I see no need for the 3 hp since the engine is not operated at that rpm for any length of time. You may have your own opinion.
footnote: Exposing CT for the Dirt Wheels Raptor pipe shoot out was a must. Can you imagine how much money CT made as a result of the shoot out? I know they placed a massive pipe order just before the article hit the streets. That was, in my opinion, the biggest load of BS and misleading testing the public has ever been forced to swallow. The funny thing is that Dirt Wheels is still pissed that I helped uncovered the BS. As a result, they keep trying to toast Trinity -- as if I was their hired gun.
To give you an idea of how pissed DW is, look no further than the recent DW mag article that talked about Jeremy Schell's great performance on the Trinity/Factory Kawasaki Production Pro ATV. Instead of giving credit to Trinity and Jeremy in a professional manner, DW elected to call Trinity Racing "Trailer Trash Racing." According to DW, it was all in fun but then brought up my blast about the Raptor pipe shoot out article as if they were now even!
Some of these threads have helped educate the public to an extent that the BS can be exposed. The Mags and builders must now be careful of the highly educated watch dog groups found here at the Connection.
#18
08-26-2003, 08:30 PM
#20
08-26-2003, 11:18 PM
