How come honda builds lackluster motors?
#231
02-09-2004, 06:03 PM
How come honda builds lackluster motors?
Originally posted by: KGB
I agree. I hear people saying you have to remove the kicker to make them apples for apples, ect. Well then what will they be when I get my FCR and my 11.5: 1 piston in my 450R? They will be apples and apples, but if they are this close with that much difference in the motor, carb ect, what wil happen then? What wil the agruing be about then?
Thats why we don't need to argue about 1 hp, its lame and shows a lack of maturity.
I agree. I hear people saying you have to remove the kicker to make them apples for apples, ect. Well then what will they be when I get my FCR and my 11.5: 1 piston in my 450R? They will be apples and apples, but if they are this close with that much difference in the motor, carb ect, what wil happen then? What wil the agruing be about then?
Thats why we don't need to argue about 1 hp, its lame and shows a lack of maturity.
If you make the mods stated above, that would make them equal in theory or "apples to apples", this would add power to the Trx giving it more torque and power all through the power band.
Im glad they came out with a lower comp. piston for reliability reasons. If it has as much power as everyone say and handling like it to, then the only mods I will do to mine is pipe and filter. (I say that now, but it never seems to happen that way, look at my 400ex.)
#233
02-09-2004, 06:09 PM
How come honda builds lackluster motors?
The thing most people don't understand is the Unicam design is not at a disadvantage to a DOHC setup. If it were, Honda would not have used it on their premier dirbike engine. I'm fairly certain Honda understands DOHC engines and their advantages/disadvantages.
Another thing most people don't understand is the how well the Honda head flows and it's design features that make it so efficient. I can explain further if necessary. 5 valves is not exactly the advantage everyone thinks it is.
Stock TRX carb - YES! it's a very throttle responsive unit. Not bad like it's been made out to be by the people who haven't ridden one or don't even know the specifics.
Another thing most people don't understand is the how well the Honda head flows and it's design features that make it so efficient. I can explain further if necessary. 5 valves is not exactly the advantage everyone thinks it is.
Stock TRX carb - YES! it's a very throttle responsive unit. Not bad like it's been made out to be by the people who haven't ridden one or don't even know the specifics.
#235
02-09-2004, 06:11 PM
How come honda builds lackluster motors?
Exactly Motox26. I am not doing the piston, but I am doing the carb and it will be more hp that it is, and if its more than 1 hp, it will be more than a yfz450, OMG what will we ever do then?
EDIT:
The carb seems great stock, the only reson I am changing for the CRF carb, is I like the way FCR's deliver the power. And I happen to have a few hundy kicking around right now.
EDIT:
The carb seems great stock, the only reson I am changing for the CRF carb, is I like the way FCR's deliver the power. And I happen to have a few hundy kicking around right now.
#237
02-09-2004, 06:37 PM
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How come honda builds lackluster motors?
I will not own one as stated above. Will most likely buy the kid a yamaha 450 over the 2.
The only thing i agree with Gabe is the 5 valve deal. Not the hottest ticket in my mind. No matter how hard you try to play up the factory carb on the honda it is no FCR.
I think it is funny out of all the dyno test done ONLY Lateralus's from GT thunder is any good for the honda guys and they act like the others do not exist. LOL
The changes that honda made from the dirtbike to the quad lowered the HP. The piston was done ( longer skirt) differnet from the dirtbike to help reliability, the carb to save money, and the list goes on. Some atv mags say the new honda pushes in the corners. Hopefully i will get to ride on this week. They are to hard to come by around here.
The only thing i agree with Gabe is the 5 valve deal. Not the hottest ticket in my mind. No matter how hard you try to play up the factory carb on the honda it is no FCR.
I think it is funny out of all the dyno test done ONLY Lateralus's from GT thunder is any good for the honda guys and they act like the others do not exist. LOL
The changes that honda made from the dirtbike to the quad lowered the HP. The piston was done ( longer skirt) differnet from the dirtbike to help reliability, the carb to save money, and the list goes on. Some atv mags say the new honda pushes in the corners. Hopefully i will get to ride on this week. They are to hard to come by around here.
#238
02-09-2004, 06:43 PM
How come honda builds lackluster motors?
14, we have agreed to disagree, thats cool,
On the carb, I agree that its a sorry excuse for a performance carb, but, this will go back to my earlier post about conservatism and Honda, they claim they have a safety standard, that has to do with thumb throttles and cables (ie push pull), that would not allow the FCR to pass their safety standard. Some leagal mumbo jumbo, that made me think they werre worried it would pin wide open and kill somebody. I don;t care about safety, lol, I will have a FCR on there as soon as Baldwin sends it to me.
You are right, I almost forgot about the other Dynos readings, I guess that my selective memory getting warmed up ( I am getting married next week!)
EDIT: Can anybody tell me, on average, how much power is lost from the crank to the wheels?
On the carb, I agree that its a sorry excuse for a performance carb, but, this will go back to my earlier post about conservatism and Honda, they claim they have a safety standard, that has to do with thumb throttles and cables (ie push pull), that would not allow the FCR to pass their safety standard. Some leagal mumbo jumbo, that made me think they werre worried it would pin wide open and kill somebody. I don;t care about safety, lol, I will have a FCR on there as soon as Baldwin sends it to me.
You are right, I almost forgot about the other Dynos readings, I guess that my selective memory getting warmed up ( I am getting married next week!)
EDIT: Can anybody tell me, on average, how much power is lost from the crank to the wheels?
#239
02-09-2004, 06:48 PM
#240
02-09-2004, 06:49 PM
How come honda builds lackluster motors?
Gary, more retuned than detuned. The YFZ is not the same as the YZ - it's closer to a destroked WR.
Cylinder heads-
I knew I couldn't get away with just saying it [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]...
If you do the math, the 450R's 4 valve head has substantially more valve area than the YFZ's 5 valve head. It also has less valve weight and thus less spring resistance.
What does all this mean in the simplest terms?
First the advantage of the 5 valve head. The 5 valve setup's claim to fame is low lift flow on the intake side - not overall flow like what it seems like it's advantage should be. Since when at low lifts air/fuel is pulled in from the circumference of the valves only, the additive circumference determines flow capabilities. Since the Yamaha has 3 intake valves at 28.5mm/each, it has 268.5mm of intake valve circumference compared to the TRX's 226mm. This creates another problem though - exhaust valves - to fit 5 valves (3 being intakes) - the two exhaust valves left have to be smaller - 24mm vs 30mm on the TRX.
As the valve opens more, then the area of the valves make more difference. The larger valves of the TRX engine (36mm/30mm vs 28.5mm/24mm) ultimately flow better - especially on the exhaust side.
Then you have to figure in the effects of the Honda's tight included valve angle. Allows for a small and effiecient combustion chamber.
As far as the cam setup - Honda used a single cam that directly acutates the intake valves. The exhaust valves are acutated by a lightweight roller setup that's effiecient, saves space, eliminates a cam. This isn't your typical SOHC warrior engine.
What's this all mean? We have two very similar engines with very different head designs, that put out power differently, but ultimately close to each other overall.
Cylinder heads-
I knew I couldn't get away with just saying it [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]...
If you do the math, the 450R's 4 valve head has substantially more valve area than the YFZ's 5 valve head. It also has less valve weight and thus less spring resistance.
What does all this mean in the simplest terms?
First the advantage of the 5 valve head. The 5 valve setup's claim to fame is low lift flow on the intake side - not overall flow like what it seems like it's advantage should be. Since when at low lifts air/fuel is pulled in from the circumference of the valves only, the additive circumference determines flow capabilities. Since the Yamaha has 3 intake valves at 28.5mm/each, it has 268.5mm of intake valve circumference compared to the TRX's 226mm. This creates another problem though - exhaust valves - to fit 5 valves (3 being intakes) - the two exhaust valves left have to be smaller - 24mm vs 30mm on the TRX.
As the valve opens more, then the area of the valves make more difference. The larger valves of the TRX engine (36mm/30mm vs 28.5mm/24mm) ultimately flow better - especially on the exhaust side.
Then you have to figure in the effects of the Honda's tight included valve angle. Allows for a small and effiecient combustion chamber.
As far as the cam setup - Honda used a single cam that directly acutates the intake valves. The exhaust valves are acutated by a lightweight roller setup that's effiecient, saves space, eliminates a cam. This isn't your typical SOHC warrior engine.
What's this all mean? We have two very similar engines with very different head designs, that put out power differently, but ultimately close to each other overall.