New CPSC Guidelines, as written by the Gila Rough Riders, pro OHV youth group. Comment, copy, send it !
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08-22-2002, 11:19 PM
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Consumer Product Safety Commission Age Guidelines.
By the Gila Rough Riders, A pro-OHV youth group dedicated to responsible off-road riding, Gila, New Mexico.
Just over ten years ago the CPSC crippled the ATV industry in response to three wheeled ATV’s being marketed to children and the resulting injuries and litigations. Production of three wheelers ceased and the development of new models of 4-wheelers put on hold. The major manufacturers agreed to these controversial rulings as well as the CPSC Age Guidelines in an effort to diffuse the legal assault being mounted against them.
These CPSC Age guidelines, agreed to by the manufacturers trying to avoid litigation, enforced by the threat of termination of franchise to their dealers, has proven disastrous. The resulting quads, mismatched to their intended age groups, has children riding quads that are too small for them, with inadequate brakes, suspension and handling. Good handling, brakes, and suspension are undeniably the very best safety features. Matching a child’s weight, size, and experience to the right machine are as important as engine size. What is being marketed are minis that are inappropriate for any size or age child, with inadequate suspension and dangerous handling.
New Guidelines need to be adopted that will encourage Manufacturers to make truly age-appropriate quads, with lower centers of gravity, less prone to roll over, with adequate suspension, easy to operate brakes, and good handling properties.
It has become necessary to rate these machines more specifically, with categories set up according to age, height, weight, and experience.
Helmets and proper safety apparel are obvious necessities that should never be left out of any ride. Head injuries are the most common serious injury sustained from ATV accidents and are easily prevented by wearing a helmet. The statistics are overwhelming, helmets save lives!
The biggest threat of injury while riding a quad comes from inexperience. Beginners of any age face more risk than any specific age group. For this reason, proper instruction, training and supervision are the most important first steps in the quad experience, and that goes for beginners of all ages.
In the 50cc to 70cc, 6 to 11 year old category, children are expected to ride narrow, tippy little machines, with little or no suspension, most with automatic transmissions that exceed safe speeds even with throttle limiters. Ill-suited for children of any age.
In the 70cc to 90cc, 12 to 15 year old category, teenagers are also expected to ride narrow, tippy little machines with inadequate suspension and handling. Because most 12 year olds weigh 100 lbs and more, and a 15 year old may easily weigh 150+ lbs, suspension is very stiff with inadequate travel. Most young teens simply do not fit these little minis. The quads that are appropriate are “off-limits”. The result is a teenager with a toy quad too small, or a larger quad, appropriate or not, obtained by going around the guidelines. Young riders over 5 ft. tall should not start off on minis.
Ironically, parents who buy truly appropriate quads for their kids, like a 250cc for a 13 year old, can’t get them into a Safety training class, because the kid’s age and the quad don’t meet the CPSC guidelines!
There are many good machines rated for 16 year olds that are completely appropriate for riders with some experience as young as 10 years of age. The Honda 250 EX and Suzuki Ozark are excellent examples, the Yamaha Blaster is a fine machine for riders age 12 & up, as is the Polaris TrailBoss. Many other models from all the major manufacturers are appropriate for this age group. This is widely known, and explains the lack of compliance with the ridiculous CPSC’s age guidelines.
However, it is the machines aimed at the youth quad market that are the real problem. Despite costing nearly as much as the aforementioned 16 year old age category quads, they lack features and basic characteristics like stability and adequate suspension and sometimes even adequate brakes.
This is why the CPSC Age Guidelines are considered an oppressive joke. Stupid rules are routinely ignored and broken in all walks of life, legitimacy and respect for these offending agencies is lost. Born of misinformation, and creating an atmosphere that has lead the manufacturers to market mini-quads that are inappropriate for any age group, but within the CPSC guidelines, some children are riding quads that are too small and inadequate, thereby unnecessarily putting them at risk. The CPSC was acting in response to children riding 3-wheelers and 4-wheelers that were too big for them. Instead they have created a new problem, making children ride quads that are too small and dangerous for them. Kids on the right quads can’t get into the Safety training classes. Death and injury statistics reflect the failure of the CPSC’s Age Guidelines, and the failure of parents, dealers, media and manufacturers to stress the importance of always wearing a helmet when riding an ATV.
Lumping these categories into ages 6, 12, and 16 has been a poorly thought out obstacle to just “get around” for anyone with any knowledge of these machines.
“Wider is Better”.
Wider quads are more stabile and less prone to roll-over. Just like some SUV’s, these mini-quads have a dangerous combination of being too narrow, with too high a center of gravity, contributing to a high injury and roll-over rate. There is no reason why any quad sold in America should be less than 36” wide, yet some are under 30”. All these minis are about as narrow as they can be. Thrill Factor?
It’s hard to figure out why the designs of these minis are so vastly inferior to their 16 age group counterparts. Single A-arm front suspensions with 2”of travel predominate the class, while the 16 age group quads have full double A-arm suspension with at least 6” of travel.
Many of the minis are based on scooter powertrains, with their motors attached to the rear suspension, making true long travel off-road suspension difficult if not impossible. NO ATV sold in America should have less than 5” suspension travel.
The flood of cheap Taiwanese Minis, guilty of all of the above, are flooding the market under a wide variety of names including major ATV manufacturers.
A True industry-wide, Age Guideline, should be of a sliding scale, to accommodate the experience, size, height and weight of the child, as well as age. Experience could account for as much as two years for example, as could the size and weight of the child. Maximum size should be partly determined by the weight of the machine in relation to the weight of the child. A good rule of thumb here is that the weight of the machine should absolutely not exceed the weight of the child by a factor of five. For example, a 50 lb rider should not be riding a machine which weighs more than 250 lbs. A 100 lb rider should not be riding a machine which weighs more than 500 lbs. A target weight of 4 lbs of machine per pound of rider or lighter is much more favorable. Lighter is better, and Lighter is safer. Size and fit of the machine to the child, as well as weight, have to play into the equation.
Riders over 5’ tall should not be on minis.
Class 6 mini
Let’s re-define this entry level class, suitable for 6 to 9 years of age, 45 to 75 lb rider. 3’ 6” to 4’ 6” recommended height.
Let's also point out that this class requires 100% adult supervision.
Parents need to understand that with this age group.
38” minimum width,
38” minimum wheelbase
200 lb maximum dry weight
5” minimum suspension travel
50 cc two stroke, or 90 cc four stroke
Manual shift with auto clutch or automatic transmission with limiting
device to keep transmission from upshifting automatically until
the parent decides the child is ready
Tether kill switch or radio controlled kill switch
Throttle limiter
Class 8 mini
The current crop of age 12 minis should be redesigned, widened, given real suspension etc. and made suitable for ages 8 to 12, 60 to 100 lb rider, 4 to 5 feet tall.
40” minimum width,
40” minimum wheelbase
225 lbs maximum dry weight
6” minimum suspension travel
100 cc two stroke or 175cc four stroke
Auto clutch manual transmission or automatic transmission with limiter
Optional Radio Control Kill Switch
Throttle limiter
Throttle limiters are a given, as they can help even adult beginners “get the hang of it”. But it is critical that the automatic transmissions on these minis be equipped with limiters also, so that parents can keep them in “low” till the child is ready to advance to the next level, avoiding dangerous speeds for beginners.
Radio controlled kill switches allow parents to ride with their children, keeping one element of control while supervising the learning process.
These first two classes represent the current mini classes, for riders under 5’ tall, and could be built on the same platforms with larger engines and tires for the category 8 models. The only decent/good current production examples in this category are the 2003 models from Polaris with 4 &1/2” suspension travel. These newest models from Taiwan have received numerous upgrades for 2003, though still having single A-arm front suspension.
Many current 16 age category quads, like the aforementioned models, should be considered for riders as young as 10 and 12, depending on weight and displacement of the machine, size and experience of the rider. There are some good examples in the next two categories.
Light sport class,
Suitable for 10-12 year olds and up, 75+lb. rider, 4’ 6” minimum height. Experience and/or size would allow a 10 year old into this category. This class is currently well represented by the Honda 250 EX and 300EX, Suzuki Z-250 (new), Kasea Skyhawk 150, Kawasaki Mojave and the Yamaha Blaster.
The Polaris TrailBlazer and Yamaha Warrior just slip in on the heavy end, and are good choices for an experienced 12 year old.
Light sport class
42” minimum width
44” minimum wheelbase
400 lb maximum weight.
Under 250 cc two stroke, 350 cc four stroke
Light Utility Class,
Suitable for 10-12 year olds and up, 75+ lb rider, 4’ 6” minimum height. Experience and/or size would allow a 10 year old into this category. This category is well –represented by all the manufacturers with models such as the Suzuki Ozark, Honda Recon, Polaris 330Trail Boss and Yamaha Beartracker.
The Honda Rancher, Suzuki Eiger, Polaris Magnum, Yamaha Wolverine and Big Bear 4x4’s are good examples of slightly larger quads with 4-wheel drive, suitable for 12+ year olds, with two years riding experience, weighing at least 100 lbs, or 14 year old beginners.
Light Utility Class, (continued)
42” minimum width
46” minimum wheelbase
550 lb. Maximum weight,
Under 300cc two-stroke, 400cc four stroke
All current 16 age category quads should be made available to 14 year olds with a minimum of two years riding experience and/or previous quad ownership.
We’ll say it again….
The biggest threat of injury while riding a quad comes from inexperience. Beginners of any age face more risk than any specific age group. For this reason, proper instruction, training and supervision are the most important first steps in the quad experience.
Helmets and proper safety apparel are obvious necessities that should never be left out of any ride. The ATV industry and media need to move ahead with a strong safety message emphasizing Helmets, and a “Stay on the Trails” program to promote Responsible Off–Roading.
Matching the right ATV to the rider is fundamentally important, and the CPSC guidelines have misguided and misinformed the American Consumer long enough.
In Conclusion, the CPSC age guidelines are not the law, just an industry guideline, and a very poor guideline at that. The CPSC guidelines have created problems they were meant to solve. Guidelines are there to inform and guide the consumer into an informed decision. The current guidelines are misguiding, leading the manufacturers into making the wrong products and the public into either making the wrong decision or having to go around the system to get their kids on the right and then sometimes unfortunately the wrong quads. The guidelines that we have just sketched out are an attempt at a system of guidelines that would improve the product and inform the consumer. A set of guidelines the consumer can use to make an informed decision. A set of guidelines the consumer can respect. How can the CPSC offer anything less?
By the Gila Rough Riders, A pro-OHV youth group dedicated to responsible off-road riding, Gila, New Mexico.
Just over ten years ago the CPSC crippled the ATV industry in response to three wheeled ATV’s being marketed to children and the resulting injuries and litigations. Production of three wheelers ceased and the development of new models of 4-wheelers put on hold. The major manufacturers agreed to these controversial rulings as well as the CPSC Age Guidelines in an effort to diffuse the legal assault being mounted against them.
These CPSC Age guidelines, agreed to by the manufacturers trying to avoid litigation, enforced by the threat of termination of franchise to their dealers, has proven disastrous. The resulting quads, mismatched to their intended age groups, has children riding quads that are too small for them, with inadequate brakes, suspension and handling. Good handling, brakes, and suspension are undeniably the very best safety features. Matching a child’s weight, size, and experience to the right machine are as important as engine size. What is being marketed are minis that are inappropriate for any size or age child, with inadequate suspension and dangerous handling.
New Guidelines need to be adopted that will encourage Manufacturers to make truly age-appropriate quads, with lower centers of gravity, less prone to roll over, with adequate suspension, easy to operate brakes, and good handling properties.
It has become necessary to rate these machines more specifically, with categories set up according to age, height, weight, and experience.
Helmets and proper safety apparel are obvious necessities that should never be left out of any ride. Head injuries are the most common serious injury sustained from ATV accidents and are easily prevented by wearing a helmet. The statistics are overwhelming, helmets save lives!
The biggest threat of injury while riding a quad comes from inexperience. Beginners of any age face more risk than any specific age group. For this reason, proper instruction, training and supervision are the most important first steps in the quad experience, and that goes for beginners of all ages.
In the 50cc to 70cc, 6 to 11 year old category, children are expected to ride narrow, tippy little machines, with little or no suspension, most with automatic transmissions that exceed safe speeds even with throttle limiters. Ill-suited for children of any age.
In the 70cc to 90cc, 12 to 15 year old category, teenagers are also expected to ride narrow, tippy little machines with inadequate suspension and handling. Because most 12 year olds weigh 100 lbs and more, and a 15 year old may easily weigh 150+ lbs, suspension is very stiff with inadequate travel. Most young teens simply do not fit these little minis. The quads that are appropriate are “off-limits”. The result is a teenager with a toy quad too small, or a larger quad, appropriate or not, obtained by going around the guidelines. Young riders over 5 ft. tall should not start off on minis.
Ironically, parents who buy truly appropriate quads for their kids, like a 250cc for a 13 year old, can’t get them into a Safety training class, because the kid’s age and the quad don’t meet the CPSC guidelines!
There are many good machines rated for 16 year olds that are completely appropriate for riders with some experience as young as 10 years of age. The Honda 250 EX and Suzuki Ozark are excellent examples, the Yamaha Blaster is a fine machine for riders age 12 & up, as is the Polaris TrailBoss. Many other models from all the major manufacturers are appropriate for this age group. This is widely known, and explains the lack of compliance with the ridiculous CPSC’s age guidelines.
However, it is the machines aimed at the youth quad market that are the real problem. Despite costing nearly as much as the aforementioned 16 year old age category quads, they lack features and basic characteristics like stability and adequate suspension and sometimes even adequate brakes.
This is why the CPSC Age Guidelines are considered an oppressive joke. Stupid rules are routinely ignored and broken in all walks of life, legitimacy and respect for these offending agencies is lost. Born of misinformation, and creating an atmosphere that has lead the manufacturers to market mini-quads that are inappropriate for any age group, but within the CPSC guidelines, some children are riding quads that are too small and inadequate, thereby unnecessarily putting them at risk. The CPSC was acting in response to children riding 3-wheelers and 4-wheelers that were too big for them. Instead they have created a new problem, making children ride quads that are too small and dangerous for them. Kids on the right quads can’t get into the Safety training classes. Death and injury statistics reflect the failure of the CPSC’s Age Guidelines, and the failure of parents, dealers, media and manufacturers to stress the importance of always wearing a helmet when riding an ATV.
Lumping these categories into ages 6, 12, and 16 has been a poorly thought out obstacle to just “get around” for anyone with any knowledge of these machines.
“Wider is Better”.
Wider quads are more stabile and less prone to roll-over. Just like some SUV’s, these mini-quads have a dangerous combination of being too narrow, with too high a center of gravity, contributing to a high injury and roll-over rate. There is no reason why any quad sold in America should be less than 36” wide, yet some are under 30”. All these minis are about as narrow as they can be. Thrill Factor?
It’s hard to figure out why the designs of these minis are so vastly inferior to their 16 age group counterparts. Single A-arm front suspensions with 2”of travel predominate the class, while the 16 age group quads have full double A-arm suspension with at least 6” of travel.
Many of the minis are based on scooter powertrains, with their motors attached to the rear suspension, making true long travel off-road suspension difficult if not impossible. NO ATV sold in America should have less than 5” suspension travel.
The flood of cheap Taiwanese Minis, guilty of all of the above, are flooding the market under a wide variety of names including major ATV manufacturers.
A True industry-wide, Age Guideline, should be of a sliding scale, to accommodate the experience, size, height and weight of the child, as well as age. Experience could account for as much as two years for example, as could the size and weight of the child. Maximum size should be partly determined by the weight of the machine in relation to the weight of the child. A good rule of thumb here is that the weight of the machine should absolutely not exceed the weight of the child by a factor of five. For example, a 50 lb rider should not be riding a machine which weighs more than 250 lbs. A 100 lb rider should not be riding a machine which weighs more than 500 lbs. A target weight of 4 lbs of machine per pound of rider or lighter is much more favorable. Lighter is better, and Lighter is safer. Size and fit of the machine to the child, as well as weight, have to play into the equation.
Riders over 5’ tall should not be on minis.
Class 6 mini
Let’s re-define this entry level class, suitable for 6 to 9 years of age, 45 to 75 lb rider. 3’ 6” to 4’ 6” recommended height.
Let's also point out that this class requires 100% adult supervision.
Parents need to understand that with this age group.
38” minimum width,
38” minimum wheelbase
200 lb maximum dry weight
5” minimum suspension travel
50 cc two stroke, or 90 cc four stroke
Manual shift with auto clutch or automatic transmission with limiting
device to keep transmission from upshifting automatically until
the parent decides the child is ready
Tether kill switch or radio controlled kill switch
Throttle limiter
Class 8 mini
The current crop of age 12 minis should be redesigned, widened, given real suspension etc. and made suitable for ages 8 to 12, 60 to 100 lb rider, 4 to 5 feet tall.
40” minimum width,
40” minimum wheelbase
225 lbs maximum dry weight
6” minimum suspension travel
100 cc two stroke or 175cc four stroke
Auto clutch manual transmission or automatic transmission with limiter
Optional Radio Control Kill Switch
Throttle limiter
Throttle limiters are a given, as they can help even adult beginners “get the hang of it”. But it is critical that the automatic transmissions on these minis be equipped with limiters also, so that parents can keep them in “low” till the child is ready to advance to the next level, avoiding dangerous speeds for beginners.
Radio controlled kill switches allow parents to ride with their children, keeping one element of control while supervising the learning process.
These first two classes represent the current mini classes, for riders under 5’ tall, and could be built on the same platforms with larger engines and tires for the category 8 models. The only decent/good current production examples in this category are the 2003 models from Polaris with 4 &1/2” suspension travel. These newest models from Taiwan have received numerous upgrades for 2003, though still having single A-arm front suspension.
Many current 16 age category quads, like the aforementioned models, should be considered for riders as young as 10 and 12, depending on weight and displacement of the machine, size and experience of the rider. There are some good examples in the next two categories.
Light sport class,
Suitable for 10-12 year olds and up, 75+lb. rider, 4’ 6” minimum height. Experience and/or size would allow a 10 year old into this category. This class is currently well represented by the Honda 250 EX and 300EX, Suzuki Z-250 (new), Kasea Skyhawk 150, Kawasaki Mojave and the Yamaha Blaster.
The Polaris TrailBlazer and Yamaha Warrior just slip in on the heavy end, and are good choices for an experienced 12 year old.
Light sport class
42” minimum width
44” minimum wheelbase
400 lb maximum weight.
Under 250 cc two stroke, 350 cc four stroke
Light Utility Class,
Suitable for 10-12 year olds and up, 75+ lb rider, 4’ 6” minimum height. Experience and/or size would allow a 10 year old into this category. This category is well –represented by all the manufacturers with models such as the Suzuki Ozark, Honda Recon, Polaris 330Trail Boss and Yamaha Beartracker.
The Honda Rancher, Suzuki Eiger, Polaris Magnum, Yamaha Wolverine and Big Bear 4x4’s are good examples of slightly larger quads with 4-wheel drive, suitable for 12+ year olds, with two years riding experience, weighing at least 100 lbs, or 14 year old beginners.
Light Utility Class, (continued)
42” minimum width
46” minimum wheelbase
550 lb. Maximum weight,
Under 300cc two-stroke, 400cc four stroke
All current 16 age category quads should be made available to 14 year olds with a minimum of two years riding experience and/or previous quad ownership.
We’ll say it again….
The biggest threat of injury while riding a quad comes from inexperience. Beginners of any age face more risk than any specific age group. For this reason, proper instruction, training and supervision are the most important first steps in the quad experience.
Helmets and proper safety apparel are obvious necessities that should never be left out of any ride. The ATV industry and media need to move ahead with a strong safety message emphasizing Helmets, and a “Stay on the Trails” program to promote Responsible Off–Roading.
Matching the right ATV to the rider is fundamentally important, and the CPSC guidelines have misguided and misinformed the American Consumer long enough.
In Conclusion, the CPSC age guidelines are not the law, just an industry guideline, and a very poor guideline at that. The CPSC guidelines have created problems they were meant to solve. Guidelines are there to inform and guide the consumer into an informed decision. The current guidelines are misguiding, leading the manufacturers into making the wrong products and the public into either making the wrong decision or having to go around the system to get their kids on the right and then sometimes unfortunately the wrong quads. The guidelines that we have just sketched out are an attempt at a system of guidelines that would improve the product and inform the consumer. A set of guidelines the consumer can use to make an informed decision. A set of guidelines the consumer can respect. How can the CPSC offer anything less?
#3
08-23-2002, 10:05 AM
fourflix,
well written article, & I agree very much. once again 3tv makes some good points about where to send it to and brakes. the only only thing I'd change is in paragraph 12 the word stupid, maybe change it to inappropriate or something, other than that, it states the facts well. as far as the letter to the naturaltrails folks, I sent one..I think that between 3-4 threads going on here, there are some real good posts that could be the basis for a accurate rebuttal/compromise on the whole saftey issue as blown out of proportion by the treehuggers & media. here is mine if you want to take anything out of it as well, but it is a diffrent issue, sort of.. >>>>
addressed to naturaltrails.org by email..no reply as of this date..
I saw your site, and as a avid Atv/Motorcyclist/Boatowner, I feel as though some of the restrictions that are in place are sufficient. There is already a recomendation that kids below the age of 16 not be allowed to ride a atv of 90 cc's or more..for one I feel that this is a bit much, a 90 cc atv is very small, and with a rider over the age of 10-11 it creates more of a problem, as it is small, the answer here is education,and PARENT involvement, not legislation, there are less restrictions on motocross bikes taht have more power, and are lighter, so while it would seem to be ok for a 10 year old to race a 80 cc bike, or the 13 year olds to run the 125's, they can not ride a atv, this seems a little skewed. the responsibility for safe riding and care of the trails, and environment comes from the parents passed down to the kids, not the goverment being legislated to the public. while there are some irrisponsible parents that will not obey the use guideline, and supervise, (read ride with, and train their kids, in a safe environment) these same parents will let their kids get hurt on bicycles, and skates. the solution is not to take away rights from the concientsious user and family that enjoys this as a outing, or the parents that support their kids in a racing setting on motocross, as these all abide with full saftey gear, helmets, riding pants, goggles, boots, gloves, jerseys, etc..there will be some in any crowd that will create a problem by not following the guidelines. I enjoy riding my atv, and would like to share the experience with my daughters, but as one is 15, and about 5'8" a 90 cc bike is terribly small for her to the point of a saftey issue, the other one is 11 and is borderline on being to big for a 90 cc class machine..before taking action, maybe a followup to a riding track, to see that this is truly a family related activity, alot of the folks that ride, have their kids & family ride as well. this is nothing diffrent than a father/son on a hunting trip, or a family fishing trip. yes there are risks, but with education, planning, EXPERIENCE, these will be at an acceptable level. the reason that some of the injuries are up, is in the last few years the motorsports atv, motorcycle sales have gone up, more people are enjoying this sport, and there has been a tremendous growth. I feel that there should be areas used for enjoyment of nature in all forms, birdwatching, hiking, rockclimbing, atv off road use, motorcycling, snowmobiling, hunting, fishing, horseback riding. this way all people can enjoy the outdoors and have a respect for it, and a tolerance for others and their ways to enjoy it.
a couple of last questions..
1) have you seen the offerings in the 90 cc class atv's?, if so have you judjed the hight of the riders as well as the weight of them?
2) have you seen what gets deliverd with a atv at the time of sale?, safe riding video, safe riding tecqniques book, literature on atv classes, and the owners manual?
3) do you realize that if a parent rides a atv, there is a very good chance that the child will ride one in a supervised manner?
4) do you realize that parents that ride atv's with their children impart a good sense of nature and RESPECT for riding areas, and others rights (property owners, other outdoor users)
5) do you realize that there is only a offering of a 50, 90, 125, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 650, 660, 700 cc size in the atv's, the small displacement models are very limited.
6) would you rather have a pre teenager get experience on a atv in a safe supervised manner,on a proper sized atv or just turn loose a untrained 16 year old loose on whatever they want to ride?with the hope that he is responsible enough to follow legislation.
7) as far as liscensing provisions, that would help if some of the proceeds go toward riding areas, and return of stolen atv's, otherwise it is a tax that generates revenue.
8) in your area how many places are there to ride..(legally) ?
9) do you agree that the environment should be made available to ALL forms of outdoor enjoyment whether motorsport or not?
10) do you believe in conservation (the wise use of resources) instead of preservation (setting aside all use of a resource to save for a future generation) <<
yours is a better written article as it focuses on one point,and makes doable recomendations about how to fix things, brought by the ridirs within the sport..so things written by riders would seem to carry more weight to the public, as the impression is implied that there is a problem, or seems to be, but the riders are aware of the problem, and supply history about it, and inform the public that it was a band aid approach that was put in place by the CPSC, but there is a better solution, one that is agreeable with the riders within the sport or activity..that kind of stuff goes a long way to sway public opinion.. my thoughts in the article diverge a bit.. and head more toward the closing of public lands, and rights..but still a general statement about saftey concerns, statististics not adding up, general comments similar to mine, and the conclusion about what to do(your article) would make a good piece..for a overall rebuttal, solution of what needs to be done. maybe put it up as a petition, or email to atv mags, local papers, congressmen, media, etc..
any article needs to be focused, and to the point, polite, but factual..that generates respect..yours is..
so those are my comments..
well written article, & I agree very much. once again 3tv makes some good points about where to send it to and brakes. the only only thing I'd change is in paragraph 12 the word stupid, maybe change it to inappropriate or something, other than that, it states the facts well. as far as the letter to the naturaltrails folks, I sent one..I think that between 3-4 threads going on here, there are some real good posts that could be the basis for a accurate rebuttal/compromise on the whole saftey issue as blown out of proportion by the treehuggers & media. here is mine if you want to take anything out of it as well, but it is a diffrent issue, sort of.. >>>>
addressed to naturaltrails.org by email..no reply as of this date..
I saw your site, and as a avid Atv/Motorcyclist/Boatowner, I feel as though some of the restrictions that are in place are sufficient. There is already a recomendation that kids below the age of 16 not be allowed to ride a atv of 90 cc's or more..for one I feel that this is a bit much, a 90 cc atv is very small, and with a rider over the age of 10-11 it creates more of a problem, as it is small, the answer here is education,and PARENT involvement, not legislation, there are less restrictions on motocross bikes taht have more power, and are lighter, so while it would seem to be ok for a 10 year old to race a 80 cc bike, or the 13 year olds to run the 125's, they can not ride a atv, this seems a little skewed. the responsibility for safe riding and care of the trails, and environment comes from the parents passed down to the kids, not the goverment being legislated to the public. while there are some irrisponsible parents that will not obey the use guideline, and supervise, (read ride with, and train their kids, in a safe environment) these same parents will let their kids get hurt on bicycles, and skates. the solution is not to take away rights from the concientsious user and family that enjoys this as a outing, or the parents that support their kids in a racing setting on motocross, as these all abide with full saftey gear, helmets, riding pants, goggles, boots, gloves, jerseys, etc..there will be some in any crowd that will create a problem by not following the guidelines. I enjoy riding my atv, and would like to share the experience with my daughters, but as one is 15, and about 5'8" a 90 cc bike is terribly small for her to the point of a saftey issue, the other one is 11 and is borderline on being to big for a 90 cc class machine..before taking action, maybe a followup to a riding track, to see that this is truly a family related activity, alot of the folks that ride, have their kids & family ride as well. this is nothing diffrent than a father/son on a hunting trip, or a family fishing trip. yes there are risks, but with education, planning, EXPERIENCE, these will be at an acceptable level. the reason that some of the injuries are up, is in the last few years the motorsports atv, motorcycle sales have gone up, more people are enjoying this sport, and there has been a tremendous growth. I feel that there should be areas used for enjoyment of nature in all forms, birdwatching, hiking, rockclimbing, atv off road use, motorcycling, snowmobiling, hunting, fishing, horseback riding. this way all people can enjoy the outdoors and have a respect for it, and a tolerance for others and their ways to enjoy it.
a couple of last questions..
1) have you seen the offerings in the 90 cc class atv's?, if so have you judjed the hight of the riders as well as the weight of them?
2) have you seen what gets deliverd with a atv at the time of sale?, safe riding video, safe riding tecqniques book, literature on atv classes, and the owners manual?
3) do you realize that if a parent rides a atv, there is a very good chance that the child will ride one in a supervised manner?
4) do you realize that parents that ride atv's with their children impart a good sense of nature and RESPECT for riding areas, and others rights (property owners, other outdoor users)
5) do you realize that there is only a offering of a 50, 90, 125, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 650, 660, 700 cc size in the atv's, the small displacement models are very limited.
6) would you rather have a pre teenager get experience on a atv in a safe supervised manner,on a proper sized atv or just turn loose a untrained 16 year old loose on whatever they want to ride?with the hope that he is responsible enough to follow legislation.
7) as far as liscensing provisions, that would help if some of the proceeds go toward riding areas, and return of stolen atv's, otherwise it is a tax that generates revenue.
8) in your area how many places are there to ride..(legally) ?
9) do you agree that the environment should be made available to ALL forms of outdoor enjoyment whether motorsport or not?
10) do you believe in conservation (the wise use of resources) instead of preservation (setting aside all use of a resource to save for a future generation) <<
yours is a better written article as it focuses on one point,and makes doable recomendations about how to fix things, brought by the ridirs within the sport..so things written by riders would seem to carry more weight to the public, as the impression is implied that there is a problem, or seems to be, but the riders are aware of the problem, and supply history about it, and inform the public that it was a band aid approach that was put in place by the CPSC, but there is a better solution, one that is agreeable with the riders within the sport or activity..that kind of stuff goes a long way to sway public opinion.. my thoughts in the article diverge a bit.. and head more toward the closing of public lands, and rights..but still a general statement about saftey concerns, statististics not adding up, general comments similar to mine, and the conclusion about what to do(your article) would make a good piece..for a overall rebuttal, solution of what needs to be done. maybe put it up as a petition, or email to atv mags, local papers, congressmen, media, etc..
any article needs to be focused, and to the point, polite, but factual..that generates respect..yours is..
so those are my comments..
#4
08-23-2002, 12:09 PM
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Thanks guys, I knew I could count on you. I added "easily operated brakes" to the wish list, but couldn't come up with anything as effective as "stupid rules" so I left it in! Anything else just seems washed out.
....Keep picking away at it! You are my editors! I have already sent it out, but not to everyone yet. We wrote this about 4 months ago, then rewrote it and rewrote it again. I think it is getting pretty good, and I have these kids to measure and guage for the specs. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
....Keep picking away at it! You are my editors! I have already sent it out, but not to everyone yet. We wrote this about 4 months ago, then rewrote it and rewrote it again. I think it is getting pretty good, and I have these kids to measure and guage for the specs. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
#5
08-23-2002, 04:25 PM
#6
08-23-2002, 08:23 PM
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As a sliding scale, the "light utility" class would allow a 10 year old, with 2 years experience, on the lighter end, a Suzuki Ozark or Honda Recon, for instance. The larger machines, a Suzuki Eiger, or Honda Rancher, would be for an experienced 12 year old, or a beginner 14 year old weighing at least 100 lbs.
....My now 14 year old son (5',100 lbs.) has been riding a 660 Raptor for over a year, and has had his picture in ATV Action Magazine 4 times, 3 airborne. He started on a Polaris Trail Boss at age 10, which was an excellent choice and proved to be a fine machine and a very appropriate quad. At age 12 we got him a Polaris 425 Expedition which was also a good choice, though a bit heavy. One of the kids we ride with is 11 and is riding a Polaris 325 Magnum. It is a little heavy for him but a good machine that works well for him. He is 4' 9" and weighs 100 lbs. Another is a big boy for 14, about 5'6" weighing 140, he rides a Honda Rubicon.
....Kids are different, quads are different. These guidelines could be set up as one of those graphs with shaded squares. What we don't want is a
beginner with little apptitude, no training or supervision, on quads that are too big and heavy, with too much power, not wearing helmets, goggles or protective clothing, making new trails, pissing off the neighbors, running an open pipe, and ending up in the emergency room. Though this kid sounds like he deserves to be there eh?
.....If my now 14 year old son was to choose a quad for the first time a Honda Rancher would be a good choice, as would a Suzuki Eiger or even a Yamaha Warrior. With his experience these same choices would have been good two years ago.
......I never said a 10 year old beginner should be on a 425. But let's cut that to 400cc while we are at it. The Expedition is gone, and Polaris only 425 is a Sportsman which is too heavy for these kids. The Honda Foreman is a 450, which would be alright for a 14 year old with experience.
....My now 14 year old son (5',100 lbs.) has been riding a 660 Raptor for over a year, and has had his picture in ATV Action Magazine 4 times, 3 airborne. He started on a Polaris Trail Boss at age 10, which was an excellent choice and proved to be a fine machine and a very appropriate quad. At age 12 we got him a Polaris 425 Expedition which was also a good choice, though a bit heavy. One of the kids we ride with is 11 and is riding a Polaris 325 Magnum. It is a little heavy for him but a good machine that works well for him. He is 4' 9" and weighs 100 lbs. Another is a big boy for 14, about 5'6" weighing 140, he rides a Honda Rubicon.
....Kids are different, quads are different. These guidelines could be set up as one of those graphs with shaded squares. What we don't want is a
beginner with little apptitude, no training or supervision, on quads that are too big and heavy, with too much power, not wearing helmets, goggles or protective clothing, making new trails, pissing off the neighbors, running an open pipe, and ending up in the emergency room. Though this kid sounds like he deserves to be there eh?
.....If my now 14 year old son was to choose a quad for the first time a Honda Rancher would be a good choice, as would a Suzuki Eiger or even a Yamaha Warrior. With his experience these same choices would have been good two years ago.
......I never said a 10 year old beginner should be on a 425. But let's cut that to 400cc while we are at it. The Expedition is gone, and Polaris only 425 is a Sportsman which is too heavy for these kids. The Honda Foreman is a 450, which would be alright for a 14 year old with experience.
#7
08-25-2002, 01:49 PM
Never said it? I think we both know what happened there. Besides this thread(or the like)hasn't generated enough interest to change diddly. You know by that the adults here don't care and the kids shouldn't. I have personally witnessed at public riding areas adults placing kids that weren't ready on quads and leading where they shouldn't have gone...As well as cursing up a storm because 8 year old "ginny" couldn't follow his precise directions about skirting mudholes without rolling over into them or straddling dirtbike tracks/gullys. So I assume the next best thing is to put the still unprepared ginny on a much bigger heavier quad so she can make the same mistakes with more injury. Wider with better brakes won't fix ginnys problem, perhaps age, perhaps she like 265,000,000 other americans won't be a quad rider when she is older, despite the heavy family influence. And just perhaps she'll be terrified enough to be against them altogether when it counts at age thirty+ at the ballot box ect. These same influences prevade many other guy/blood sports. I think that all participants of these sports must have felt a calling and not be 'recruited'. Some feel that recruiting may be the only way to preserve them, but like I implied, you'll never recruit enough to make a majority and recruitees generally don't have the ties that someone who is called to a sport. It's true that small or steady declines in sport "X" ARE followed by attempts to ban/further regulate/(use your imagination other fascist activities.) If the participants allow mere bueracratic regulation to change their behavior then so be it. There is much more I could say about preserving some sports but I hope this might spark a flicker of thought however minor to pervade these blunted and nullified attempts at appeasing the 'majority.' Every scenario should be contemplated to an absolute finality, but very rarely does american society go that far, for we are not far easterners, the attention of the public is like that of a flea in heat.
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#8
08-25-2002, 09:06 PM
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Sorry there ElRancho but I don't share your, well, rather pessimistic views. Maybe I am tilting at windmills but I believe in progress. I believe in better quads, and better laws, and better lots of things. None of which just happen. It takes effort, and yes, too often, the people who should be involved aren't. I agree that the people who are at the root of the problem are the ones least likely to be listening. So it takes a few loud mouths like me, and some other people, who give a damn, to make a difference.
.....No, this thread didn't rock the house, but it was long and self-conclusive, and there really wasn't much controversey to it, as far as this forum goes. I also sent it to the Natural Trails/Wilderness Society, as well as my U.S. Congressman, CPSC, the ATVA and a few other orgs.
.....Sometimes it's just like planting a seed. Maybe, just maybe, this idea will end up in the right place and grow to fruition. A little water, encouragement, and a little bullsh!+ along the way can only help....[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
.....No, this thread didn't rock the house, but it was long and self-conclusive, and there really wasn't much controversey to it, as far as this forum goes. I also sent it to the Natural Trails/Wilderness Society, as well as my U.S. Congressman, CPSC, the ATVA and a few other orgs.
.....Sometimes it's just like planting a seed. Maybe, just maybe, this idea will end up in the right place and grow to fruition. A little water, encouragement, and a little bullsh!+ along the way can only help....[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
#9
08-25-2002, 11:26 PM
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