kazuma Jaguar 500
#1
10-05-2012, 08:28 AM
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kazuma Jaguar 500
trying to fix this would like some advise.
a) had it new for a week and then it died. It was flooded ie would crank and would not start.
b) been sitting for a few months and prev mechanic had a spare ignition coil ordered but it was never installed.
c) here is the diagnostic now/so far.
Fully recharged the batt and reinstalled it.
On turning ign key the speedo panel turns on BUT engine does not crank when the left side push button is pressed. tried to bypass it by removing the starter relay connector and doing a direct feed of 12 V to starter. The starter turns but no spark in the plug. removed the 3 pin connector that links the switch part from the handlebar to the rest of the wiring loom and refitted it in case of a loose contact.
d) Already replaced the new coil and no change.
Assuming there are just 4 main parts to the complete ing system ie the starter on off switch (already removed and refitted the 3 cable connector and if its bad it can only be the cut out is permanently on internally) , the ing coil (already replaced with new one, the sealed ing ecu unit with the 6 wire connector, the ing relay.
Probably one of the 3 components is bad or is SUPRESSING the spark in the plug.
Is there any supression switch (like a brake switch that is damaged) linked to some component that could stop the engine from cranking and cutting out voltage to ing pack as well.
Step one is obviously to crank the engine using the normal push button switch and then step 2 to generate the spark in the plug.
Any recommendations are welcome.
Thanks
a) had it new for a week and then it died. It was flooded ie would crank and would not start.
b) been sitting for a few months and prev mechanic had a spare ignition coil ordered but it was never installed.
c) here is the diagnostic now/so far.
Fully recharged the batt and reinstalled it.
On turning ign key the speedo panel turns on BUT engine does not crank when the left side push button is pressed. tried to bypass it by removing the starter relay connector and doing a direct feed of 12 V to starter. The starter turns but no spark in the plug. removed the 3 pin connector that links the switch part from the handlebar to the rest of the wiring loom and refitted it in case of a loose contact.
d) Already replaced the new coil and no change.
Assuming there are just 4 main parts to the complete ing system ie the starter on off switch (already removed and refitted the 3 cable connector and if its bad it can only be the cut out is permanently on internally) , the ing coil (already replaced with new one, the sealed ing ecu unit with the 6 wire connector, the ing relay.
Probably one of the 3 components is bad or is SUPRESSING the spark in the plug.
Is there any supression switch (like a brake switch that is damaged) linked to some component that could stop the engine from cranking and cutting out voltage to ing pack as well.
Step one is obviously to crank the engine using the normal push button switch and then step 2 to generate the spark in the plug.
Any recommendations are welcome.
Thanks
#2
10-06-2012, 12:35 AM
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
12 Posts
My comments below in Blue. But first I have to say that I know nothing about this quad. I have no idea how it is wired, nor how "generic" it is in wiring compared to other quads. I just don't know.
trying to fix this would like some advise.
a) had it new for a week and then it died. It was flooded ie would crank and would not start.
b) been sitting for a few months and prev mechanic had a spare ignition coil ordered but it was never installed.
c) here is the diagnostic now/so far.
Fully recharged the batt and reinstalled it.
On turning ign key the speedo panel turns on BUT engine does not crank when the left side push button is pressed. tried to bypass it by removing the starter relay connector and doing a direct feed of 12 V to starter. The starter turns but no spark in the plug. removed the 3 pin connector that links the switch part from the handlebar to the rest of the wiring loom and refitted it in case of a loose contact.
d) Already replaced the new coil and no change.
Assuming there are just 4 main parts to the complete ing system ie the starter on off switch (already removed and refitted the 3 cable connector and if its bad it can only be the cut out is permanently on internally) , the ing coil (already replaced with new one, the sealed ing ecu unit with the 6 wire connector, the ing relay. [Wow, are you ever confusing things. There is the circuitry that is involved in turning the starter - and has nothing to do do with spark, and the circuitry that makes spark and has nothing to do with whether the starter turns or not.
Again, I know nothing about 500cc Kazuma quads, but all quads have a starter interlock design that prevents the starter from turning unless the brakes are applied, or the clutch is in, or the transmission is in neutral, or some combination of the above. It's the same with your car. You can't crank the starter in drive. But this is unrelated to your car ignition system.
No spark (on quads other than yours, and I'm assuming yours is the same) does not involve starter solenoids, or start buttons. It does involve ignition switches, stator trigger signals, stator AC power voltage, the CDI, all the kill switches, reverse limiter modules, speed limiters, Ignition coils, the spark plug(s), and a *lot* of wiring,]
Probably one of the 3 components is bad or is SUPRESSING the spark in the plug. [No, there's much more]
Is there any supression switch (like a brake switch that is damaged) linked to some component that could stop the engine from cranking and cutting out voltage to ing pack as well. [Yes, brake switch/starter safety interlocks are the most common way to keep a starter motor from cranking a quad where it may fire up and unexpectidly lurch into someone.]
Step one is obviously to crank the engine using the normal push button switch and then step 2 to generate the spark in the plug.
[Start with the brake switch to get the starter cranking, but after that I am at a loss. I haven't found anything available on any Kazuma wiring - let alone specific 500cc kazuma wiring. I'm curious if you considered the total lack of documentation from kazuma when you bought this quad? With the lack of documentation, do you have a place to get service? Many other large displacement chinese vendors have been getting better at dispensing service info.
There's safety in numbers. "Me too" generic quads made by zillions of chinese vendors all use the same generic parts, and mostly the same wiring schemes. Even if they don't publish their own wiring diagram, there is somebody else that does, and it is very similar if not exact. And you can get parts - cheaply!!!
My advice to others is don't buy weird *** chinese quads with no documentation or available service unless you're a quad pioneer and can handle this, and solve things on your own.]
Any recommendations are welcome.
Thanks
a) had it new for a week and then it died. It was flooded ie would crank and would not start.
b) been sitting for a few months and prev mechanic had a spare ignition coil ordered but it was never installed.
c) here is the diagnostic now/so far.
Fully recharged the batt and reinstalled it.
On turning ign key the speedo panel turns on BUT engine does not crank when the left side push button is pressed. tried to bypass it by removing the starter relay connector and doing a direct feed of 12 V to starter. The starter turns but no spark in the plug. removed the 3 pin connector that links the switch part from the handlebar to the rest of the wiring loom and refitted it in case of a loose contact.
d) Already replaced the new coil and no change.
Assuming there are just 4 main parts to the complete ing system ie the starter on off switch (already removed and refitted the 3 cable connector and if its bad it can only be the cut out is permanently on internally) , the ing coil (already replaced with new one, the sealed ing ecu unit with the 6 wire connector, the ing relay. [Wow, are you ever confusing things. There is the circuitry that is involved in turning the starter - and has nothing to do do with spark, and the circuitry that makes spark and has nothing to do with whether the starter turns or not.
Again, I know nothing about 500cc Kazuma quads, but all quads have a starter interlock design that prevents the starter from turning unless the brakes are applied, or the clutch is in, or the transmission is in neutral, or some combination of the above. It's the same with your car. You can't crank the starter in drive. But this is unrelated to your car ignition system.
No spark (on quads other than yours, and I'm assuming yours is the same) does not involve starter solenoids, or start buttons. It does involve ignition switches, stator trigger signals, stator AC power voltage, the CDI, all the kill switches, reverse limiter modules, speed limiters, Ignition coils, the spark plug(s), and a *lot* of wiring,]
Probably one of the 3 components is bad or is SUPRESSING the spark in the plug. [No, there's much more]
Is there any supression switch (like a brake switch that is damaged) linked to some component that could stop the engine from cranking and cutting out voltage to ing pack as well. [Yes, brake switch/starter safety interlocks are the most common way to keep a starter motor from cranking a quad where it may fire up and unexpectidly lurch into someone.]
Step one is obviously to crank the engine using the normal push button switch and then step 2 to generate the spark in the plug.
[Start with the brake switch to get the starter cranking, but after that I am at a loss. I haven't found anything available on any Kazuma wiring - let alone specific 500cc kazuma wiring. I'm curious if you considered the total lack of documentation from kazuma when you bought this quad? With the lack of documentation, do you have a place to get service? Many other large displacement chinese vendors have been getting better at dispensing service info.
There's safety in numbers. "Me too" generic quads made by zillions of chinese vendors all use the same generic parts, and mostly the same wiring schemes. Even if they don't publish their own wiring diagram, there is somebody else that does, and it is very similar if not exact. And you can get parts - cheaply!!!
My advice to others is don't buy weird *** chinese quads with no documentation or available service unless you're a quad pioneer and can handle this, and solve things on your own.]
Any recommendations are welcome.
Thanks
#3
10-06-2012, 01:11 AM
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for your inputs. Sorry for confusing you.
Firstly just to clarify that I do have 2 separate issues to deal with.
a) To get the starter cranked. and
b) to get the spark .
I do realise that they are 2 totally independent circuits.
The manufacturer provided a handbook which has basic things and a photo / location of all components and connector identification along with a wiring layout and diagram. But its not the best as it shows the connector with a coloured wire at one end but never shows where that wire ends up.
a) Starter Issue. (I can assume it may have been due to a faulty kill switch, brake switch (if a part of the suppression circuitry, starter relay. Any one of these 3 components can be the fault. I have bypassed these to turn the engine but was told that doing so may still supress the CDI. (One contributor told me to try to remove the Black White cable from the CDI as its the stop / earth wire.
b) Ignition spark. This obviously starts its journey in the Magneto and then the CDI unit and then the Ignition HT Coil. There is no obvious check for the components other than trying a new one one at a time. Since I have already replaced the Ign Coil I am now left with the Magneto and or the CDI unit.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
Firstly just to clarify that I do have 2 separate issues to deal with.
a) To get the starter cranked. and
b) to get the spark .
I do realise that they are 2 totally independent circuits.
The manufacturer provided a handbook which has basic things and a photo / location of all components and connector identification along with a wiring layout and diagram. But its not the best as it shows the connector with a coloured wire at one end but never shows where that wire ends up.
a) Starter Issue. (I can assume it may have been due to a faulty kill switch, brake switch (if a part of the suppression circuitry, starter relay. Any one of these 3 components can be the fault. I have bypassed these to turn the engine but was told that doing so may still supress the CDI. (One contributor told me to try to remove the Black White cable from the CDI as its the stop / earth wire.
b) Ignition spark. This obviously starts its journey in the Magneto and then the CDI unit and then the Ignition HT Coil. There is no obvious check for the components other than trying a new one one at a time. Since I have already replaced the Ign Coil I am now left with the Magneto and or the CDI unit.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
#4
10-06-2012, 01:55 AM
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
12 Posts
My comments in blue once again...
Thanks for your inputs. Sorry for confusing you.
Firstly just to clarify that I do have 2 separate issues to deal with.
a) To get the starter cranked. and
b) to get the spark .
I do realise that they are 2 totally independent circuits. [Good so far...]
The manufacturer provided a handbook which has basic things and a photo / location of all components and connector identification along with a wiring layout and diagram. But its not the best as it shows the connector with a coloured wire at one end but never shows where that wire ends up. [Yes, but this is not the same as a wiring diagram, and Kazuma should have their feet held to the fire for not providing one.]
a) Starter Issue. (I can assume it may have been due to a faulty kill switch [No, absolutely not - the kill switch has to do with spark. This has *nothing* to do with spark. You yourself said above that "I do realise that they are 2 totally independent circuits.", yet you are confusing them again.], brake switch [Yes, this is how most quads keep the starter from turning unless the brakes are applied. Again I don't know about your quad.] (if a part of the suppression circuitry, starter relay [what do you mean about "suppresion circuitry"? Starter motor turning, or spark? These are two completely different things]. Any one of these 3 components can be the fault [And a whole lot of other things - especially since there are so many questins above]. I have bypassed these to turn the engine but was told that doing so may still supress the CDI. (One contributor told me to try to remove the Black White cable from the CDI as its the stop / earth wire. [Who told you this? It may be relevant or not. Links? I'd like to take a look...]
b) Ignition spark. This obviously starts its journey in the Magneto [Yes, trigger signal and AC ignition power (on most igniiton systems)] and then the CDI unit and then the Ignition HT Coil. There is no obvious check for the components other than trying a new one one at a time. [Your forgetting the kill switch input to the CDI, and all the wiring. And spark plug too. And there would be many ignition checks to do *if* there was a wiring diagram available.] Since I have already replaced the Ign Coil I am now left with the Magneto and or the CDI unit. [We need a wiring diagram. I don't have one.]
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
Firstly just to clarify that I do have 2 separate issues to deal with.
a) To get the starter cranked. and
b) to get the spark .
I do realise that they are 2 totally independent circuits. [Good so far...]
The manufacturer provided a handbook which has basic things and a photo / location of all components and connector identification along with a wiring layout and diagram. But its not the best as it shows the connector with a coloured wire at one end but never shows where that wire ends up. [Yes, but this is not the same as a wiring diagram, and Kazuma should have their feet held to the fire for not providing one.]
a) Starter Issue. (I can assume it may have been due to a faulty kill switch [No, absolutely not - the kill switch has to do with spark. This has *nothing* to do with spark. You yourself said above that "I do realise that they are 2 totally independent circuits.", yet you are confusing them again.], brake switch [Yes, this is how most quads keep the starter from turning unless the brakes are applied. Again I don't know about your quad.] (if a part of the suppression circuitry, starter relay [what do you mean about "suppresion circuitry"? Starter motor turning, or spark? These are two completely different things]. Any one of these 3 components can be the fault [And a whole lot of other things - especially since there are so many questins above]. I have bypassed these to turn the engine but was told that doing so may still supress the CDI. (One contributor told me to try to remove the Black White cable from the CDI as its the stop / earth wire. [Who told you this? It may be relevant or not. Links? I'd like to take a look...]
b) Ignition spark. This obviously starts its journey in the Magneto [Yes, trigger signal and AC ignition power (on most igniiton systems)] and then the CDI unit and then the Ignition HT Coil. There is no obvious check for the components other than trying a new one one at a time. [Your forgetting the kill switch input to the CDI, and all the wiring. And spark plug too. And there would be many ignition checks to do *if* there was a wiring diagram available.] Since I have already replaced the Ign Coil I am now left with the Magneto and or the CDI unit. [We need a wiring diagram. I don't have one.]
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
#5
10-06-2012, 03:36 AM
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for this.
Update since my last message.
The starter issue was fixed/ narrowed down to a faulty brake switch. Found out that despite pressing the brake no brake light but when the cable for brake switch was shorted the brake light came on and the engine cranks by the usual push button switch now.
So we have the ignition issue left as still no spark.
I felt there were 3 components , the CDI unit, the sensor which is meant to give a signal to the CDI and possibly an ignition relay (not sure of its function).
Checked the usual connectors etc for faults and so far found nothing. Access to the Sensor from the Engine if that turns out to be the issue is a pain as you need to remove the belt mechanism etc .
Update since my last message.
The starter issue was fixed/ narrowed down to a faulty brake switch. Found out that despite pressing the brake no brake light but when the cable for brake switch was shorted the brake light came on and the engine cranks by the usual push button switch now.
So we have the ignition issue left as still no spark.
I felt there were 3 components , the CDI unit, the sensor which is meant to give a signal to the CDI and possibly an ignition relay (not sure of its function).
Checked the usual connectors etc for faults and so far found nothing. Access to the Sensor from the Engine if that turns out to be the issue is a pain as you need to remove the belt mechanism etc .
#6
10-07-2012, 10:35 PM
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
12 Posts
I did another round of searches for electrical info on you quad and came up empty handed again. I did see one reference that states that your CDI is DC powered. But it is just one, and it could be wrong too. Right now it is just a data point to keep in mind.
There is no documentation to be had on your quad ignition system. Shame on Kazuma. So the next obvious step it to generate our own documentation. It is not an easy task, but it can be done. The plan would be to take all of the components that we know are involved in your ignition system (Stator, Ignition Coil, CDI, Ignition Switch, Kill Switches) and document the wire colors to each of these (using only the wire colors in the harness side of any connectors to the components). Match up the same wire colors and use that info to start making a diagram. Remember that a black/white wire going into the harness will still be black/white when it comes out. And, it is very likely that *all* black/white wires in the harness are the same wire and connected together.
So the CDI trigger wire should go to the stator. The harness colors should prove that. But it is conceivable that the trigger wire is interrupted by a kill switch of some sort. If so, then a search of CDI harness wire colors won't match up with stator wire harness colors, but they will match up with a kill switch (or kill switches). The other kill switch harness colors will then match up with the stator harness colors.
See the logic? It's like a jigsaw puzzle. You match this piece with that. It's slow to start, and you need to do flawlessly accurate documentation, but then it all comes together in the end.
Ready to start?
1) What are the wire harness colors that connect to your stator?
2) What are the wire harness colors that connect to your CDI?
3) What are the wire harness colors that connect to you Igntition Coil?
4) What are the wire harness colors that connect to any kill switch?
5) What are the wire harness colors that connect to the ignition switch?
6) What are the wire harness colors that connect to the ignition relay (whatever the heck that is)?
There is no documentation to be had on your quad ignition system. Shame on Kazuma. So the next obvious step it to generate our own documentation. It is not an easy task, but it can be done. The plan would be to take all of the components that we know are involved in your ignition system (Stator, Ignition Coil, CDI, Ignition Switch, Kill Switches) and document the wire colors to each of these (using only the wire colors in the harness side of any connectors to the components). Match up the same wire colors and use that info to start making a diagram. Remember that a black/white wire going into the harness will still be black/white when it comes out. And, it is very likely that *all* black/white wires in the harness are the same wire and connected together.
So the CDI trigger wire should go to the stator. The harness colors should prove that. But it is conceivable that the trigger wire is interrupted by a kill switch of some sort. If so, then a search of CDI harness wire colors won't match up with stator wire harness colors, but they will match up with a kill switch (or kill switches). The other kill switch harness colors will then match up with the stator harness colors.
See the logic? It's like a jigsaw puzzle. You match this piece with that. It's slow to start, and you need to do flawlessly accurate documentation, but then it all comes together in the end.
Ready to start?
1) What are the wire harness colors that connect to your stator?
2) What are the wire harness colors that connect to your CDI?
3) What are the wire harness colors that connect to you Igntition Coil?
4) What are the wire harness colors that connect to any kill switch?
5) What are the wire harness colors that connect to the ignition switch?
6) What are the wire harness colors that connect to the ignition relay (whatever the heck that is)?
#7
10-08-2012, 12:47 AM
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the inputs Lynn, I will compile the info as requested , but most of it is already in the owners hand book as they have shown all components with wires going to and from them in independent pictures. I will consolidate it.
There is also one diagram showing layout of cabling and types of connectors etc.
I am getting a new CDI unit and Regulator from a supplier in China tomorrow as we thought may as well keep one as a spare just in case.
I will visit the site where the bike is, and take down the details as requested.
We can then post them online for other users .
My client bought it direct from the manufacturers in China for less than USD 4000. As they say you spend peanuts , you hire monkeys. The reviews from users about this model are very mixed and extreme. Some just love it and others would not touch it with a barged pole.
There is also one diagram showing layout of cabling and types of connectors etc.
I am getting a new CDI unit and Regulator from a supplier in China tomorrow as we thought may as well keep one as a spare just in case.
I will visit the site where the bike is, and take down the details as requested.
We can then post them online for other users .
My client bought it direct from the manufacturers in China for less than USD 4000. As they say you spend peanuts , you hire monkeys. The reviews from users about this model are very mixed and extreme. Some just love it and others would not touch it with a barged pole.
Trending Topics
#8
10-13-2012, 09:54 AM
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ignition Update.
Hi Lynn, Got the Quad to my own workshop and can now see it with more time.
Traced a lot of the ignition and starter system wiring and will make a coloured drawing and post it , so other members can see it for future ref on Chinese 500cc models.. In the meantime I also recieved the spare CDI and rectifier unit. So I now have a spare rectifier,CDI box and Ignition coil. (but no spark)
CDI. While tracing the CDI cabling I saw one pair of wires coming from the pick up magnetic sensor direct to this unit, one pair going out to the Ignition coil , one wire going to the switch on the handle bar. One last cable is unknown and am still trying to trace it.
I opened the side Cover to have access to the magnetic pickup and saw some white power type deposit built up on the casing. While the Pickup itself seemed clean the guts inside this box were full of moisture and the powder seemed more like the buildup you see on batt terminals.
CABLING from Ng pickup and charging system. There are a total of 6 cables coming of the one loom of this section. . 2 from the pickup sensor which go to the CDI unit, 3 in yellow go to the rectifier and one last yellow connects to a green into the main wiring loom (could be earth) .
Since I got no spark even after trying out the new CDI and rectifier I wanted to verify the following..
a) test process for a magnetic pickup. Is there any test method for the pickup sensor. (Say checking voltage or resistance with a multimeter while cranking the engine to see any variation in any value???)
b) Any specific method to remove the flywheel as could not get it off to access the coils inside.
c) Is the function of the rectifier only to control voltage for headlamp or does it have any function that may inhibit the performance of the CDI.
Going to basics I can only forsee the mag pickup as the missing link but unsure where to start as to checking it??
Traced a lot of the ignition and starter system wiring and will make a coloured drawing and post it , so other members can see it for future ref on Chinese 500cc models.. In the meantime I also recieved the spare CDI and rectifier unit. So I now have a spare rectifier,CDI box and Ignition coil. (but no spark)
CDI. While tracing the CDI cabling I saw one pair of wires coming from the pick up magnetic sensor direct to this unit, one pair going out to the Ignition coil , one wire going to the switch on the handle bar. One last cable is unknown and am still trying to trace it.
I opened the side Cover to have access to the magnetic pickup and saw some white power type deposit built up on the casing. While the Pickup itself seemed clean the guts inside this box were full of moisture and the powder seemed more like the buildup you see on batt terminals.
CABLING from Ng pickup and charging system. There are a total of 6 cables coming of the one loom of this section. . 2 from the pickup sensor which go to the CDI unit, 3 in yellow go to the rectifier and one last yellow connects to a green into the main wiring loom (could be earth) .
Since I got no spark even after trying out the new CDI and rectifier I wanted to verify the following..
a) test process for a magnetic pickup. Is there any test method for the pickup sensor. (Say checking voltage or resistance with a multimeter while cranking the engine to see any variation in any value???)
b) Any specific method to remove the flywheel as could not get it off to access the coils inside.
c) Is the function of the rectifier only to control voltage for headlamp or does it have any function that may inhibit the performance of the CDI.
Going to basics I can only forsee the mag pickup as the missing link but unsure where to start as to checking it??
#9
10-14-2012, 12:20 AM
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#10
10-14-2012, 10:50 AM
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
12 Posts
1) Put the pic's in your own personal album on the forum and then tell people to look there.
2) Upload your pictures to a free picture hosting site like www.photobucket.com. They'll store your pictures forever and for free, and provide you with a link that you can copy and paste into your post. The forum software will expand that link and display your picture.
For more info on pasting the photobucket link into your post see this thread from yesterday:
http://forums.atvconnection.com/chin...ller-help.html
In this thread there is an example of how to paste photobucket links into your post.