T'bolt.. I have to ask.. if the lake is on Reservation land, does the tribe not control it's fishing? It seems to me that there are a lot of lakes around that are not on Reservation land?... Just a question... As a whole, I think the issue is moot... and I appologise for using the mistreatment that has and still occurs in WI and the rest of the country as an example... it served no purpose other than rub salt in old wounds... and that is not what I was trying to get across.

I agree, we have too many conflicts amongst ourselves... I fear the lid on this box is open, and I am trying desperately to get it closed. We do not portend to ignore the issues... rather, recognise that they still exist, and we cannot ignore that fact... And it is probable that in the case of the shootings, it has over time contributed to the feelings on both sides. Witness the negative comments that many hunters have given here about the shooter's race... If we spent half the time trying to understand the other person's point of view and culture... think of the difference it would make.

T'bolt, I fully understand your wanting to share your life's experiences with your children... I think every culture feels the same. Unfortunately, things change.. and the ability to re-live our memories is lost... about all we have left is memories and stories to pass down. I don't know what the answer is.. but I would like to think I am trying to create new ones with my kids now, and soon with my grandchildren when they get old enough to sit on my knee and listen to the stories of an old man..... and not worrying about what we have lost. The future holds great promise, no matter if you are 9 years old, or 49... Time to look ahead and step out smartly....

 

WOW, very interesting posts... Maybe this has been covered and I just didn't read it, but here is my take. We need to realize that we are all one race, the human race. It doesn't matter what color your skin is, or what part of the world you live in. People should not be treated differently just because 300+ years ago something happened to their people. Is it fair that indians get to run big casinos tax free? Is it fair that Alaska indians get free land plus free houses? If they want to live the traditionl life like they had (in tents, no automobiles, no electricity, bow & arrow, etc.) that is fine, but if they want to live in todays world with todays technology they need to be considered part of OUR HUMAN RACE. I don't get anything free just because the Vikings concured parts of the world all those years ago. I grew up close to a reservation, an indian was one of my best friends. He fully agrees with this view.

Anyway, I hope nobody takes this post the wrong way. I consider everyone my brother in Christ. Everyone is equal no matter their job, race, clothes, income, etc. Lets do away with the walls and live together as one.

 

Dragginbutt, The particular lakes are not actually on the reservation itself. Even if they were the part that bothers me is the riding both sides of fence. They want a seperate nation within a nation, But still want all the benifits and rights outside their nation. I just don't see it working with having two sets laws and wanting the benifits of both. I also understand Cattermans point of view too. How is it that the indians can have a casino in Minnesota, But I can't ?? Somehow that doesn't sound equal or fair to me. We talk about it being one nation under God, But is it really ?? If it is one nation how come there is a seperate nation on the reservation with seperate laws ?? I don't understand that at all. If we are all supposed to be equal and want to be treated equal we should be all on the same field, But we are not. Let me make one thing clear to everyone that reads these posts. I believe every man woman and child on this earth is equal no matter what the color of their skin, But I don't believe anyone deserves special treatment of free handouts. I am not saying not to help someone in need, But helping them and giving them everything is two different things. The middle aged white man is discriminated against as much or more than anyone else, But he gets no special treatment for it. I not going to respond to this post anymore for fear of unintentionally offending anyone. I Think we are all equal , should be treated equal and I assure you I am the first one to stand up for someone when they are mistreated. I do stand behind trying to preserve this land for our children. I know times change, But we need to do our best so they at least have a chance to enjoy the things we do. We owe it to them and especially our creator. I hope there is no hard feelings and no disrepect was intended for anyone. It is hard to actually say what you mean with a keyboard so if I have offended anyone I apologize.

 

I understand what everyone is saying, not to say I personally agree with it. You have your opinion, I have mine. Thats it. This topic of discussion has been ongoing for many hundred years now. And will probably continue for the next few hundred. I don't see any end in sight. Never have and never will. That is the reality of the situation. At the end of the day I am just a man. And in a hundred years no one will care what my opinion or your opinion is. "Tis the same old battle.

 

Well it would appear that because of the fishing and hinting issues you mention, that you may not consider the American Indian an equal then. They are the ones operating within the law. I know that this issue comes up every year, with confrontations between tribal members and "sportsmen" happening all the time. Some have turned deadly too. I wonder how many so called sportsmen advocate violence in this case? More than I would like to think I would guess.

Sort of sounds like what is happening with the way the local Asian community is being viewed too. Hmm, I don't mean to be critical, but there seems to be a pattern here.... Which was my point in the first place. There are two points of view to every situation... and underlying causes that from time to time reach a boiling point until something violent occurs.

We can't have it both ways folks.. we can't say everyone is equal as long as they follow my religion, or agree with my way of thinking, or hunt and fish the way I think they should... Either you accept everyone for who they are, and to paraphrase Martin Luther King, "judge them for their character, not their color of their skin" ... or you admit that you have a ways to go in that department.

We are always going to have culture clash.. no matter how hard we try to understand them... but it is this diversity in thought and practice that makes our country what it is. A nation of people, joined together for a common good...

 

Dragginbutt, I know I said that I wasn't going to respond anymore , But I have too. I never said That the American indian wasn't within the law nor did I say they shouldn't be able to hunt and fish the way they are. I did say that if that our enviroment will not stand up to the number of fish taken out of the lakes and I do believe something needs to change. I have personally don't care about the casino issue either, But is it fair ?? No, But life is not fair nor will it ever be. I do accept people for who they are and never once said anything bad about anyone. I just do not agree with having a seperate nation with its own laws inside a nation. That there in itself says we are not one nation under God indivisible because we are already divided. I believe the American indians should be granted rights under the treaties, But as with everthing and everyone else things also need to change to. I truely believe there are plenty of white people out there that would resort to violence and I to think that is a shame. I will also say that there are plenty of other races that take advantage of the system and unfourtunately this is what the people see. As I said before their are bad apples in every crowd and if you go by what you see on TV or in the paper you will only see the negative things. Just like in Irag, The only news you hear is the bad and I guarantee there is plenty of good news to hear to. I respect everyones heritage and never once have I said that I didn't, But everyone has to change not just one race. I can give one instance where the system is taken advantage of. There is a reservation near an area I hunt. The government and the county buit small single family homes for some of the people and not one of them even so much as trys to maintain it. The doors are left open the siding has holes in it and the garbage is in the front yard. Now I realize this is just one instance, But I am sure there is more. That makes it hard to see tax dollars go to help someone that obviously don't appreciate it. On the other end of the spectrum the majority would be the first ones their to help me in need, But those people don't stand out visably. The example I am trying to show is that it is easy to see the negative in people, But much harder to see the positive when even the news is mostly negative. When most things that are reported are negative a person tends to grow accustumed to looking for the negative even though it is wrong. As far as the hunting and fishing there are many white people that I know personally that hunt and fish, But are in no way sportsmen. My concern with the whole idea is conservation. If we want to leave things behind for our future generations we can't over fish a lake or over hunt the woods even if it is within the law. Anyone that does not think we need to conserve the fish and game on this earth for future generations is no sportsmen to me. I know there is going to be issues on this subject forever and just as with democrats and republicans there is two ends of the spectrum. Until these two ends can agree to compromise and meet in the middle (never happen with democrats and republicans) these issues will never change. This in no way has anything do do with people being equal and I still think we are. I do get tired of the white man being accuse of discriminating against every other race because ball rolls both ways. Go over to where some of the immigrants came from and see what happens. You will get no special treatment and you sure as hell won't be able to bring your culture or your ways there. What I am trying to say is the white race is no more guilty of racism than any other race, But because we are the majority in America it is always publicized. America has it's own culture and shouldn't have to change to meet every other culture. When immigrants come to this country they shouldn't expect the country or it's people to change for them. The immigrants need to adjust to the American culture, Isn't that why they came here in the first place ?? I am not saying they have to change what they believe and leave their culture at the border and we all need to it, But don't expect everyone else to change to accomadate them and then get special treatment. That is not the way it should work if everyone is to be created equal. How can it be equal when I am asked to change for someone else, But they don't have to change for me ?? That type of thinking won't even work in a relationship between a man and woman much less to entirely different races. This subject will never end and just because I have a difference in opinion on how things should be in no way means people aren't equal.The bottom line is is why is it discrimination if I want change and adjust to someone elses culture, But it is not discrimination when someone doesn't want to change and adjust to mine. That alone means I am actually the one being descriminated against, However there is no law against that.

 

If I follow that logic, we would be speaking one of the many Indian tongues then, instead of English... And I doubt that we would be Praising God..

Don't get me wrong.. this is not a personal attack on your beliefs, or your way of looking at things... it has nothing to do with you or I for that matter. It is clearly an illustration that in America, there are diverse cultures, and it is a fact of life that we are not as accepting of each other as we thought we were... We all have a long path in front of us... my desire is that you and everyone else join me on that journey...

 

Rezboy....these guys have gone out of their way to not offend you to no avail. Tis the same old battle on both sides apparantly.

 

Dragginbutt, I respect your opinion and I am actually enjoying this conversation with you because I do also see your point of view. I believe we are both looking toward the same goal only we have a different idea of how we should get there. It is nice to be able to have a civil conversation and not have someone get worked up about it. I realize the indians were here long before it was actually America, But they were also here when it became the America it is today and have grown with us. Reguardless of who was here first back then people fought for the culture we have now. It has been this way for hundreds of years and nobody has ever been turned away at the border or been asked to leave their culture behind. I will admit from what I have read about our history the indians did get treated unfairly by SOME not all white people, they were not asked to give up what they believe in. My question to you is why should I change my culture for for someone else, But yet it is ok for them to shun my culture ?? How is that being an equal ?? I hear about how all these immigrants complain about America, But yet they come here to escape from their own country and then turn around and criticize America again. I shouldn't use the term all because it is not all and is only a figure of speach. When an immigrant comes to this country to escape theirs , Criticizes after they are here and then expects help isn't that kind of like biting the hand that feeds you. I just don't see why American culture has to be the only one to change and at a cost to the American people. It is just like when we go to war to stick up for some country that is getting bullied and they turn around and criticize us for it. I guess I am just standing up for my American culture and I will always accept other cultures, But I can't agree that it is right to change our culture to suit others. As far as the indians go they have also lived a pretty good life being Americans as the white man has. There is no person alive that knows everything that happened between the Indians and the white man, But I will say neither side was totally innocent or totally right. We can talk about what we know from history books, But just as the news and newspaper today all the facts will never be known. My end goal is the same as yours which is to all live happy together and accept all cultures which I do, However I don't agree with the American culture getting stepped on and then asked to support other cultures. If we all want to be equal and be treated equal then why is it that I don't get tax breaks. I personally don't need it, But there are plenty that could use it and are not eligble for it because they are from here. I am ok with helping get a start, But not giving everything for free. Our ancestors were not given anything, They fought or they worked for everthing that we havr today. I will never understand why someone would come to this country if it is so bad. Why would you leave your culture and country behind to come here if it wasn't what you were looking for. I believe there is a lot of discrimination in this country, But we only hear about it when white peopl are the ones discriminating. Why don't we hear about it when we are discriminated against. I just don't see how people can be asked to be created equal at the same time they want things for free just because they are not white. If things were equal in this country jobs would be given by qualification, However it doesn't work that way. Many unqualified people get jobs just because of their skin color and I know there is a lot because I can't count on both hands how many I know personally that are not qualified. I am all for everyone being equal, But there is only one way to be equal and that is to level the playing field. No special treatment, No free handouts (except for the truely needy) , Hire people by qualification and I am sure there are many more. Hard work will get someone farther than handouts and hard work doesn't mean just mean physical work . It can never be a level playing field when you come to this country , Expect our culture to change for yours and then ask us to pay for it too. I want everyone to get along and I personally will bend over backwards for someone that repects me reguardless of the color of their skin, But I won't be taken advantage of or stepped on by anyone without sticking up for myself. It seems the only ones expected to change are the American people and that is not right. I sure am glad this post is staying civil and once again I mean no disrespect toward any culture and am only speaking on what I see happening right or wrong. I apologize if it offends anyone as that is not my intent at all. It is actually nice hearing other peoples point of view.

Reguardless of what our beliefs are I want to say that there is no place on his earth taht I would rather live than right hear in America. Not matter what anyone does or say I have to believe that is a lot of peoples opinion or they wouldn't be here today and they wouldn't keep coming here. In my eyes everyone is welcome here and I hope evryone is able to enjoy a long happy life. God bless you all and God bless the USA !! I hope everyone has a safe and happy Holiday season !!!

 

Would our conversation change if I had use the Amish as my example instead? You are right... it is time to move on... You win.. I hope everyone was entertained by the discussion. I hope that we all have a new sense of tollerance and a more open view on all sides... After all, we are all playing in the same sandbox... how all this relates to the original topic I have no idea anymore...

Everyone enjoy the holiday season.. Ol'd DB is bowing out for a few days...