http://www.doj.state.wi.us/news/COMPLAINT.pdf
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov04/277651.asp

These articles might clear up som rumors.

 

I live in Ladysmith Wisconsin about 20 miles away from the killings and knew a who a couple of the guys were, here is a link to the hunters memorial website with the BIOs of the killed hunter and a brief story of the killings. You may also leave messages for the families of those murdered.

Please take a look and leave a kind word for the families.

Thanks Jeff Vacho

Hunters Memorial

 

Now I am not a hunter... But I do own land in Wisconsin on which deer reside, and prior to my purchase, I have been told it is a good place to get a deer. I have to say that now that I own the land, I do not intend to hunt on it, and I will not condone anyone else hunting there either. The man was tresspasssing period.

Given that the government saw fit at the end of the Viet Nam war to "patriate" persons who had collaborated with them during the war into the local area, it was an explosion waiting to happen. These people all grew up fighting for their lives. You think our returning veterans have problems with violence... how about being thrown into a hostile environment not speaking the language, and being spit on ridiculed etc... heck, look what we do to the Indian population.. and especially in Wisconsin...if you need to see racism at it's worst. Don't try to sugar coat it, there is enough to go around here...

We complain when they hunt and fish on their reservation land... we deny them fair work treatment, and instead of seeing a man or woman, we see an Indian man, or woman... same applies here doesn't it?

I don't condone this man's heinous act, but I can't say it surprises me either. The US government is just as much to blame as anything. Remember the first years when the vietnamese refugees were in the gulf and driving the fishermen in Texas, and the other gulf states nuts... a lot of dead people was the result.

I cincerely hope that we have grown as a nation since those days... And I offer my heartfelt sympathy to those that lost family and friend. Without taking sides... I hope that the justice system does it's job, and not let past politics corrupt the procedings. This is truly a tragedy...

 

are you nuts?????

the fact is he killed 6 people, only one of them had a gun, I don't care what they called him, this flat out shouldn't have happen and he deserves to hang for his acts....the problem was the person...doesn't matter what the people that owned the land said, thought, what their religion was, what their skin color is, what their background is, they did not deserve to get shot.....

sounds like you are saying this person was justified....

and....I work with dozens of Veterans, I work on an Air Force base, I have dozens of vets working for me, over a half dozen that were in Vietnam.....they don't act like this, so not sure where you are getting your info from, sounds like just opinions.....

absolutely no reason for these shootings....none, zero, zip....doesn't matter how many names they called him....absolutely no reason...and the fact they you say you are surprised it hasn't happened sooner makes me worry about you...

 

elkbow,

I assume, since you didn't say, you are referring the comments by Dragginbutt.

As I know many folks get offended when somebody questions them, and think they are being attacked, I am not doing that, just offering my opinion.
I think you are mis-reading or something. I don't think it sounds like Dragginbutt is any way saying this moron was "justified"...... In any way.......
as he plainly says.....
There are "reasons" why everything happens. When people give "reasons" why things happen, 99% of the time people take that as making "excuses" or "justifying" why something happen.

He's also not saying that Veterans act like this.
Dragginbutt was saying that if we think the Vets had violent tendencies (which yes a lot of them did), just imagine the tendencies that the people he is describing have. Kind of saying, "If you think these guys had problems, how about these peolpe".
If you know anything about the Vietnam War and Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, you would know that there were thousand of veterans that came back and were screwed up for like. A lot of them did have violent tendencies from this.
And you say you work with dozens of Vets...... Do you know how many Veterans there are in this country? Do you know how many from just Vetnam and Korea? Do you know any of the problems that many many of these folks had, especially the returning POW's?
You say you don't know where Dragginbutt is getting his information (about some Vets having violent tendencies)? I'm sorry my friend, but you should do your homework. Just by working with "Dozens" of veterans and they all seem "ok" (which even you really don't know), doesn't mean they all are. This is a huge topic in itself.

If you know anything about this country, the culture/customs of other countries, what kind of enviroments people live in outside of this country, and the numerous problems many people that come to this country have, you may be able to understand what Dragginbutt is saying.
We bring in and allow people into this country that are from cultures completely different from ours. Most from cultures that we "Americans" don't and will never know or understand. And some that we strongly disagree with.

Where did he make that statement? The closest thing he said to that was that this incident didn't suprise him.
Makes you worry about him??? That is a pretty true statement.......
If I were to make that statement, I would have said "I'm suprised it doesn't happen more often".

Anyway, just realized how much I could say on this. This could be a whole different topic.
I just think you are totally missing the point that Dragginbutt is making.

 

Don't forget, this guy has been in the country a long time and was in the US Military....not related to where he came from, since there is no indication of what his background was where he came from....thats what i'm saying, he knows the US, knows the way people think and act and also knows our language.....

I just don't want to make it sound like this should have happened or will ever happen again....i've been kicked off of private land, most circumstances were nothing, alot of people even said 'go ahead' and hunt, just stay in this area as we're hunting over there....i've also been told to 'get off'....in not kind words...but just figured, okay, they're a$$holes....but went on my merry way....I don't trepass, I know the area's when I hunt, i now use a GPS and know exactly where I'm at...when I didn't use it is when I happened upon private land....

 

elkbow,

I agree 100%, I don't think in any way this should have happened or should happen again. I don't think Dragginbutt thinks that either. I can see what you are saying.
Note: I am not saying this guys is/was/has been a saint. I'm not saying he hasn't been. There is no excuse for this guy going psycho like this. I'm not saying there are any reasons to justify it. But as with anything, there are reasons (not excuses) why it happen. Some of the opinions on here are just trying to bring to light some of the "possible" reasons. Hopefully (doubful) we'll someday hear from him the "real" reason he did this. Of course his defense will have reasons, but they will no doubt try to make reasons to get him off, whether they are true reasons or not. We all know that game.
Just because he has been here a long time, and in the military, honestly doesn't mean a whole lot. To say he knows the US and the way people think and act, is also a big assumption.
On the other hand, maybe he does know. Maybe he does know how a lot of folks treat people like him. Maybe that is "part" of the reason why he acted out in this way (not justifying his actions in any way of course). Maybe he had finally had enough of "it". "It" meaning the harassing, racial slurs, etc. No matter what anybody says, I believe it is possible that some sort of remarks "could" have been made to this guy. None of us would be suprised if they had.
We will honestly not ever know exactly what happen that dreadful day, what they "may" have been calling him. We all know how folks of his ethnicity and many others are treated in this country, and also some of the things they do. There are both sides of the coin.
WOW, This topic is huge and has many angles. Way to many to get into on here. And it would be hard for any of us to completely get what we are saying across so others understand.
So I'm gonna leave it at that, sorry.

 

Quad4fun, thank you for defending my "honor".. but the gentleman is entitled to his own opinion... no matter how slanted it may be.

Just for the record, I am retired Air Force... I too have spent my entire adult life picking up the pieces and trying to put many of them back together after Viet Nam. I know the pain the veterans suffered when they arrived back to an America where the people would spit on you. I even was denied the ability to write a check in a K-Mart once because I was on active duty.. not because I had bad credit or anything.. nor had I written any bad checks... it was one store manager with an axe to grind... so be it. I know the numbers of returning veterans who committed suicide within 10 years of the war... You had better get your facts straight before you start spouting off there sir....

The shooter was part of the group of people who had to flee the war zone after it was over, or die due to their cooperation with US forces during the war. If you did some homework, you would find that the US military employs many foreign nationals in it's ranks... we DON"T discriminate.

I was born in, and grew up in Wisconsin prior to joining the military, and my father was a Brigadier General, who was in charge of the Illinios National Guard for many years... during the 60's and 70's events like the Democratic convention, the Summer race riots, and all the other natural disasters that occurred in that era... My father was also one of the investigating officers of Kent State too. I also remember him coming home one night after spending a day in surgery after some vigilante threw a rock the size of a baseball at him and hit him in the face, paralizing his face for many years. Try being a 5 year old attempting to understand how someone could do that to the man you worshiped as a father?

I know what it was like to have people drive by our home and shoot out our windows, call us up and make death threats etc..I know what it was like to be told not to wear your uniform off base because it would insite the good American People...... so I think I have a very good sense of what military life is, was, and will be... and I don't need any book learning fool tell me how things "Were". I lived them. ... FOR THE RECORD!

After spending my time in the military, I continue to work in the Government... so I have a pretty good feel for what is going on in the world today as well...

I also know the good people of Wisconsin, who can be the best people on earth... but to an outsider like this gentlman and his people, they can also be quite harsh. (reference the comments on how the Indian tribes are treated there)

I don't know what went on between the land owner and the shooter... Frankly, I don't care. I stated that what he did was wrong.. and I did not in any way insinuate anything different. What I did say was I can understand how things like this happen, when the government dumps thousands of refugees in an area where the people may not be as accepting to the different culture. I also stated that I hoped that we as a people had grown past our racist days... but clearly, after reading some of the comments on this list, it is obvious that many of the deep rooted problems that had laid buried for many years have surfaced... That is the tragedy...

Now I challenge you sir to go back and read the comments on this thread and tell ME I am nuts... That is scary The facts say otherwise....

I said before, and I will say again.... My heart bleeds for those that have lost friend and family here... they are the ones that deserve your actions albiet in a more positive way... not attacking others on this list.... we are all in agreement here!

 

ELKBOW, Just to add to your comments about the vets that work for you... Check with them to discover how many Nam veterans are dead now from suicide, or are in prisons for committing murder. It might shake you up a bit to discover the nasty truth...that no other war has had such a high percentage of suicides or created so many criminals in our nation's history.

Much the result of being met with hostility and shouts of baby killers etc when they returned home. Eventually something snapped, and they would go on a killing rampage too.

And I sit with these guys every year on Veterans day in front of the Viet Nam memorial..and laugh and cry and just be... Not trying to defend or judge.. just to look each other in the eye and know they survived something that should not have happened in the first place. After all, they didn't ask to put in that place... and I thank God they went and answered their nation's call, and came back....whole or not...

That is something I suggest you try one time and maybe you will get some sense of where I am coming from......

The ones you work with are the lucky ones... the ones that didn't have demons in their minds that followed and haunted them until they went crazy. I can tell you stories of guys who would fall flat on their belly if they heard a tin can drop on the floor... or if you yelled "incoming"... Yeah it was a fun game until you had time to think about it... and then it hit you just how sad it was....

No, sorry, I don't get the sense that you were even alive then...nor are you talking from personal experience.... so I guess that makes your opinion irrelevent.

 

Dragginbutt, I agree with what you are saying except about complaining about the indians hunting and fishing on the reservation. I have been hunting for 25 years and enjoy it very much and would like for my grankids to have the opertunities that I do. What I think most people complain most about is the quantities of game they allow the indians to take every year (especially walleyes ). The rights of all these treaties keep coming up and I believe they do have their rights, But when we start letting the quantities of fish taken each year amount to hundreds of thousands of pound from one lake I believe it is out of hand. I hear all about treaties of long ago and they want the exact same privelages they had then, But still want to use all the modern equipment to do it. While I am not against them using the equipment I am against having any game over harvested which is what I see happening to the walleyes in Minnesota lakes where the netting is happening. I also don't like that they want to reap the benefits of both worlds by having there own seperate nation within a state, But still want all the same rights when that we have when they leave the reservation. I also know that the percentage of indians that are thics way is small and it may not have been a good example to use. I have many friends that are indian and better men than I'll ever be. The bottom line is the complaints aren't because they are indian it is because the game (mostly fish) is going to get over harvested if they continue the way it is. If they want to follow the rules of the treaty to the tee then they shouldn't be able to use all the modern equipment that they use. Sorry for ranting, I am just stating what I feel and in no way attribute my feelings toward the color of someones skin. As far as the guy that committed the shootings I think he new full well that he was trespassing and his neighbors where he owns land in Minnesota have even had him climb over a fench into their property. I just can't believe anyone would kill someone over tresspassing or even being called racial slurs. To shoot someone for that is just plain rediculous and then to shoot unarmed people in the back makes him a coward in my book.

Dragginbutt, I am not ranting at you at all, I just got on a roll so please don't take any offense to my post. I am only stating what I see with my eyes and I believe in being fair to everyone reguardless of their skin color, But this guy will get no sympathy from me and I think he deserves the same chance the unarmed people got when they were running away. I was just a baby during Vietnam and was not big enough to see how the soldiers were treated personally, But from what I have been tought in school it was shamefull. I personally would like to thank all those that serve and have served in the military to give me the rights that I have today. If it weren't for our soldiers none of us would have the freedom to be writing our opinions in this forum so Thank You!!!!!