For those of you who are not really interested in statistics Im going to cut through the B.S. and give you my opinion on the springs after a week riding them on the trails and testing. ALL spring posted quicker times in 4WD than 2wd.

My idle speed is 1100 +/- 50 RPMS just like manual recommends.
Belt deflection is 25mm. Deflection has a DIRECT reflection on engagement rpms and I felt I need to list what mine is. 'IF"!! your belt is tighter than mine you WILL get a higher engagement rpm. Just keep this in mind.

P650 stock spring, engagement rpms 1270.

Any spring is better than this one. NUFF SAID.

P700 stock spring, engagement rpms 1270.

I was very suprised at the performance of this spring. For trail riding this is an excellent spring. If I had a P700 I would be hard pressed talking myself into buying another spring for trail riding. I did get better performance from "non drag racing" springs though but is it worth the money. This spring does have a strong midrange. You P700 owners should think twice about giving up your stock spring unless you want the performance of an EPI Red, Dalton Black/White or just want to find out what other springs are like. I would highly recommend experimenting like I did before buying.

EPI Pink, engagement rpms 1520.

Didnt get to trail ride this spring. From just riding it during testing, it DIDNOT seem to have as much downshifting as the Dalton Blue did. Everyone seems to like this spring and I will have to agree with that. This spring is listed at 0 engagement like stock but this is not accurate. The true ingagement is 1520rpms where as "BOTH" stock springs are 1270.

EPI Bright/Green, engagement rpms 1920.

This is the highest engagement rpms I would go with for trail riding. Some may still not like this spring but it is tolerable. Funny thing is, it would consistantly kick out and free wheel at 1500rpms. If I had this spring I wouldnt buy another one unless I didnt feel comfortable with the engagement rpms. This spring has a strong midrange. I like this spring but not as much as the Dalton Plain/White or stock P700.

EPI Red, engagement rpms 2150.

This spring is a performance spring plain and simple. IMO, ITS NOT a trail spring but can be. If you manipulate your rear brake you can make smooth pull outs. This spring should not be used for rock crawling. This spring may get you into trouble trying to pull out on fairly steep wet hills were traction is needed. This spring cleaned house in the 300' and 600' 4wd runs. Amazingly and suprisingly the EPI Pink was right there with it at 875'. This should be the spring you want for DRAG RACING, "from the ones I tested'.

Dalton Blue, engagement rpms 1630.

A lot of guys like this spring. Even though it turned out to be a pretty quick spring the downshifting kills it for trail riding. I honestly dont see how a guy can stand riding this spring in a P650/700. Its like having twice the engine braking. When I was riding this spring up a rocky creek bed going 3-5mph, when I hit something that jarred my thumb off the throttle the 650 would stop like hitting the brakes. When I let off the gas for a curve going 25-30mph, that was when the "double engine braking" effect would occur. I would rather deal with high engagement than that.

*NOTE* Helix, from atvconnection mentioned that this spring was designed for a VForce. This would explain a lot since the V700 has no KEBC.

Dalton Plain/White, engagement rpms 1750.

This is a very nice spring and is one of my favorite all around spring of the bunch. This spring has very nice trail maners in pulling out, slowing down, great hold back on hills and has good midrange power as well. For an added bonus, in the drag test it is a little above par than the other "non performance" springs. Still though, if I had a P700 I would be hard pressed to buy this spring unless I just want to spend $25 just to play around with it. BUT, for a P650 owner this spring is a great improvement.

Dalton Black/White, engagement rpms 2400.

Although this spring is listed by Dalton to have a lower engagement rpm than the EPI Red it consistantly showed much higher. This is also a performance spring plain and simple. During the spring change it started raining. We were able to get one run in at 300' in 2wd. The time was on par with the EPI Red and I expect this spring to give equal performance as the Red one will. At this time track conditions were ruined and all testing was stopped.

These are my opinions and the way I feel about the springs I tested. Some of you will agree, disagree, or have no opinion at all. The performance of the spring will vary from ATV to ATV. BUT! I think my trail evaluation will be the same for every P650 with a working KEBC.

STAKK wanted a test done. It consisted of running in 4x4, low range, 0-35mph with the P700, EPI B/G and Dalton P/W springs. This test was very hard to perform accuratly. STAKK, all I can say is keep your Dalton P/W spring. You will not tell a difference in any of the 3 springs. The midrange pull feels the same to me for all 3 springs.

This post has took me over 2 hours to type, edit and proof read for wording "not spelling" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]. I will come back and post the timed runs later on.

I hope you enjoyed this. Even though he will never read this, a special thanks goes out to my brother in law, Erdil Looney for helping me with these test.

Tim

 

Thanks KOD...I know how much work that all was & this is the most spring charictoristics I've seen in 1 place & IMO worthy of posting on NYROCS site... So which spring are you wanting to keep now ??? WAM

 

DITTO, what Newbeatle said. Thanks KOD.

 

IM gonna ask nyroc if i can keep the Dalton Plain/White.

Hey, Nyroc, can I keep the Plain/White spring? LOL

 

Thanks Tim, Look's like I have one of the best all around spring's with the Plain/white, to tell you the truth, all I wanted was a primary that performed at least equal to the stock 700 but with a little higher engagement maybe 300-400 rpm. and I think the Dal P/W does that, I'll compare your times and IF the P/W posted a little faster times to 300ft, that will be a added bonus....I spoke with a guy on the phone who i was put in touch with who is supposed to really know cvt tuning but mostly on sled's, I asked him about the finish rates, and He told me that if you have a softer spring like the P/W or the EPI B/G with rates of 115-120 lbs compared to the blue and pink being stiffer with 155 and 160 the softer spring should accerlerate faster because the sheaves will be able to close easier thus allowing the belt to go up the primary faster...makes sense really. BUT he also said if we are only changing the springs and not the flyweight's we are missing the boat as the weight's determine full shift out and shift point's to match the max horsepower or torque the motor is making, I said it's awhole lot more expensive to play with the weight's though and he agreed, but still said for absolute best cvt tuning the spring's and weight's should be used together, but we will get some performance gain's by just playing with the spring's......

 

Wow, Kissofdeath you are awesome for this test. The p/w is the one I was hoping to get back, but all the work you have done on this has softened me up. You can have it if helix doesn't want it back. Please get that black and white one into the hands of a Vforce owner that will tell us how it works. Is there any way that Kevin M might like to try it?


I posted both the data and the final results on my website. Just one thing, I think the statement you made about the effect that belt deflection has on engagement is backwards. It seems that a tight belt will get grabbed earlier. The higher the RPM, the more the primary closes. So, a lose belt won't be grabbed until just a few more RPM's than a tight one.

Am I mistaken? Arguements?

 

Thanks for all the work, KOD. The only two springs I have left now are the Dalton plain/white and the Dalton blue. I like them both a lot but am currently running the blue. The quick downshifting of the blue spring that you didn't like is one of the things that appeals to me. It makes my machine feel more like a manual tranny quad; more of a linear feeling between the engine and the tires. I did lose 2-3 mph off the top; I guess it's time to break out those EPI 56g weights that I've got drilled full of holes and see how they work with the Dalton blue spring.

 

Stakk, I answered your question about the 300' times in another forum. I also understand about the weights working together with the springs but Im like you, that is pretty expensive even buying one set of adjustable weights. I think someone with adjustable weights should conduct a test. I will donate my RCBS digital reloading scales to the cause if anyone is interested and needs them. It measures in grams and grains.

Thanks Nyroc for the Dalton P/W spring offer. Hopefully Helix will pardon why wicked ways against the Dalton Blue spring. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

As far as belt deflection in relationship to the rpm engagement goes here is what I recall. When I made my very first belt adjustment I installed the EPI Black secondary and the EPI Red primary spring at the same time. I know my belt was a little on the tight side after the adjustment because it would make the chirping sound when in high or low range but not in neutral. Im not sure what the rpms were "no tach at that time" but I could not even pull out on the concrete garage floor without barking the tires. The last time I made my belt adjustment the belt would make its squeeling sound when loading it on the loading ramps. This was the indicator that the belt was getting or already out of spec. Before making that belt adjustment I decided to try the Red spring again to see how it reacted, that is when I noticed that with a loose belt the rpm couldnt be nearly as high as before. It felt more like the Blue or P/W spring does now.

Maybe an clutching expert can enlighten us more on this but that is the way I remember it.

Novakaw 650, you are welcome. I also lost 3mph off top end with the Dalton Blue. Like you said, the weights may bring that back. If you want to experiement with the weights, remember I have the scales so if you find what works best you can post what the weight is.

I will be getting everyones springs back in the mail tomorrow. I want to thank everyone who participated in the spring donation. I coudnt have done it without your help.

Tim

 

If someone wants to do a weight/spring test, I'll donate the adjustable weights, as long as I get them back. pull

 

KOD,
Thanx again for posting your opinions of each spring you tested. I am now even more glad that I installed the P700 primary spring on my P650 because I think it performs well on the trails. Did you happen to do any timed test runs with the P700 primary spring and 2 or 3 shims? If so, I was wondering if the added "stall effect" from the addition shims resulted in faster acceleration during your timed runs?

Also, would you be willing to post the average timed runs (at 100 feet, 300 feet or whatever length you used for testing) for each of the above springs? I would be interested in seeing the average numbers.

Happy trails... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]