In the many forums I hang out at, there seems to be a recurring theme that keeps popping up from time to time. That subject is a newbie asking what they should buy etc... The answers are pretty predictable too.

For one thing, I find that everyone in general will suggest to a newbie that they buy this product or that.. usually the one that is in their garage... Whether that is experience talking, or someone trying to justify their own purchase decision in their minds...hard to say.
From time to time, you will come across one or two that are real upset with a brand that they may have had trouble with... but generally people are honest and try to give you a "biased" opinion...

But when making a purchase choice, I'd just like to throw something else out there for people to chew on...
Why not consider what a particular brand is doing to promote and advance the sport of ATV riding in your decision... Certainly, there are brands out there that are supporting racing events, trail rides, riding area construction, Safety courses etc... but there are also some that do nothing more than take your $.. and do not put anything back into the sport.
I am not asking people to "Buy American" or something like that, but I think it is time to expect a certain level of community or sport involvement from any manufacturer seriously interested in sustaining our sport. I guess I am getting choosy where I spend my $ in my old age... Some may call this responsible spending... (Somehow that makes me feel really old)

This can be applied to many of the products we buy for use in our sport as well.

What do y'all think? Is this important or not to you?

 

Dragginbutt, I sense your anti chinese quad sentiment in this. Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Do you think the big 4 do all their program's to help us(the customer's) or is it to promote themselve's. Also if people used this formula 45 year's ago we would still be riding bsa's , triumph's, cz's, maico's, bultaco's, etc.....BoyI miss that '73 cz 250!!! Now don't get me wrong, I understand where you are coming from and the point you are making. I just can see a place for low priced entry level quad's.

 

No not actually... Just trying to see if this is an important point to consider. They certainly have the ability to join in and put something back into the sport if they choose, and I think a lot of people (myself included) would welcome their participation... On the contrary, there are machines from many major manufacturers that would fall into the "I had a bad experience with it" classification... and that information is important too. I have nothing against any particular brand, or where it is made. (well, I do not like a certain factory that uses the color Green, but that is another story)

I do feel that times are changing, and we have been talking about responible actions and the consequences of a bad choice here... I don't see this as being all that out of line. Is expecting a manufacturer to act responsibly too much to ask? That is what I am trying to find out.

I think you have to admit, in most of my posts, I try to choose the middle ground and not get caught up in a mud slinging contest... The intent here is the same. Just wondering what others think... But thanks for bringing this up... it is an important point. I agree, there will always be a place for price point shopping.. but not everyone bases their decisions on price. Some choose a certain brand because they have a good relationship with a particular dealer.. even though he may be higher than the guy in the next town... Just wondering if this should be something considered..., just like color is to some. (Won't ride a green motorcycle)

After reading my original post, I can see how it might be misconstrued and I appologise for that. I guess the flip side is do you think the opinions doled out are reliable for the most part? Can we all be unbiased in our comments? Good questions... Not sure that I have an answer for that.

Oh and yes, I miss my Maico like nothing else... but I can remember even further back to the old Matchless and Greeves... and don't forget the Vincent. (Actually have a friend who owns a black shadow).. now there is a real motorcycle.

 

I Reread your post and had another comment. Sure, the big four do it with a profit motive.. but it is that profit that has paid for the R&D that resulted in the machines we have today. But, remember also that it is the participating manufacturers that fund the training programs too. Andthey make many of the jamborees possible too.

You don't see them blowing their horns to let you know that they are an active participant in providing expertise to state and federal governments in the construction and maintenence of riding areas. We also don't see the behind the scenes work they do to support different lobby efforts in Washington, DC. that are in our best interest and help defend our rights to ride. They are doing it, and I applaud their work.

When I see the effort and resources that they put back into the sport, it does give me a chance to pause and consider how things are today, and the struggles we are going through to not only keep what we have today, but also build upon that for tomorrow. Yes, it does make a difference in my decision process. I'd haate to think of where we would be if they had not taken interest and supported the sport....

I also understand that commercial enterprise in many of these countries are in their infancy...and they may not be able to afford to play at the same level... But I whole heartedly hope that down the road, they can stand beside the big boys and play the game on the same level.. I think we all will come out winners if they do.

 

To purchase a new mini for Trail riding for a newbie, I "try" to recommend they create a feature checklist sheet and down the right side, list the top 6 brands they are thinking about buying. Rate each spot from 1 to 5 and at the bottom of the sheet, the totals will narrow down the top 2 (or 3) minis to focus on next. Then, do the checklist again with the young rider. He / she should then go for body fitting, color selection, style section, then "ease of control & comfort test". In the end, the purchaser may pick a North American brand or they may pick an over seas brand. What ever works best for them.

To purchase a new mini for Racing, I recommend the buyer research the top 3 winning brands for the last 3 years, then visit as many race tracks in their area, wiggle their way into the pitts, talk to as many pitt crew members as possible, then make a decision. In the end, the purchaser may pick a North American brand or they may pick an over seas brand. What ever works best for them.

When the buyers does their own indepth research, it forces the them to overcome their steep learning curve ASAP. The more the buyer "rolls up their sleaves and digs in", the more and more they will learn about their top 5 brands and make a better buying decision. And I would have to admit, a Respected member openly stating "buy that brand and NOT the other" and they explain why, does dramatcially influence one's 1-5 score in their checklist. Depending upon the info provided, it might even blow "the other brand" off the checklist sheet.

If you come across anyone and they say "hey - we got brand xyz, here's its improvement areas and here's pictures to prove it", that's the guy/gal you want to pay attention to. The folks who sit in their ivory towers and quote mini-Quad review paragraphs all the time, are the one's you want to ignore. Those are the folks who don't have skinned knuckles from slipped wrenchs and experienced the frustration of parts that don't fit.

Regarding the selling price of a mini. To many, it is a factor. A major factory for trail riders with limited pockets. Many trail riding and "around the house" people will buy a mini for $200 less and risk more expensive parts later on. Its are nature to spend less on sports and focus on paying the mortgage, taxes, car payments, food, etc. etc. Because of this, the average Joe Blow does have the selling price in their sights.

Just my 2 cents worth...

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Dragginbutt, I understand I have never owned a yellow motorcycle or quad myself. I still wonder if the big four are promoting themselves or us??? I do feel it is needed though, safety classes etc... The problem seem's that the people that need the classes dont take them. I am beginning to wonder what my current motorcycle co. (KTM) is doing for the sport, I know they are in on a few off road competition's. I will have to do some research on that. The problem I see with the flood of chinese machine's is the lack of a dealer network. Some guy buy's a container full, sell's them and move's on to something else. That is where I think the chinese mfg's have blown it. On another side I was watching a showon speed channel where they were talking about the chinese motorcycle invasion. The interesting part was that the brand they were talking about was subsidised by honda. And in most of the yamoto ad's they claim to be a joint venture with yamaha. That I definitely don't understand.

Offtopic slightly, Do you remember that ad that was in m/c mags in the early 70's?It showed a piano with a bultaco sticker on it. Senor bultaco was claiming that bultaco would never waste their time making piano's. They were too busy making motor cycle's.

 

I fully agree with you on the container queens... Last weekend, on the ATV show on TV, they were talking about the same issue, and were quite critical of them... I also share the absolute baffling feeling I get when I hear Honda and Yamaha are participating.. but when you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. First you have a country with the largest population concentration on the planet.. who is struggling with coming into a free market system.. You also have a cheap labor force.

The market is there, and although the risks are higer than say the US market.. the potential is there for huge profits. It sounds like they have recognized that until the CHinese market takes off, they need to make a profit with their offering. I do not doubt that they are behind the marketing here in the US. But with one very interesting difference, they seem to have control on the dealer network, and parts availability. That heavy handed controlling approach has me a little concerned.. even more so if I owned one. If th erisk is acceptable, them sure, go ahead.... It is a real crap shoot.... They obvioulsy feel that with the existing networks, and th efact that the parts and product availability is controlled, they do not feel threatened.

They also know that as you grow older, you move up in class of machine, and by that time, you are hooked on the sport. It is a ingenious way of growing your new customers. Plus, because in many ways the Chinese machines may be inferior.. or at least the seed may have been planted there anyway... And the biggest deal, is they can refuse to participate in the things that cost them money. Like the CPSC guidelines, funding of training programs, huge advertizing budgets, sponsorship of events etc... It make people look at the big boys as the shining example of good behavior, when in fact the image has been very well crafted...

Who knows, maybe we just discovered a new "plot" and can now use this to our advantage... It does have some pretty interesting possibilities.

I would be upset to find out that they were doing this as a way to avoid the costs of doing business here in the US mentioned above... and are doing this as a means of pushing some of the domestic brands out of the market.

Understand this is all conjecture with no physical proof of anything... but it sure makes for good discussion.....

 

Dragginbutt, you might be on to something, I mean it at least makes sense. The big 4 realize that they have priced them selves out of the market for the entry level participant's. I mean no one will argue that this is a low budget sport even if you buy used quad's/bike's, still not cheap. So you find a country that can produce a low budget copy of your product, help them get started. You know let them have a few blueprint's to a couple of older model's. There is no one who can deny a honda resemblance in that 90-110cc quad motor from china. That way as you say the seed has been planted, and this is the country of disposable everything. Get them hooked on a inferior product and later sell them a better version and the plan has come full circle. I like how you think, Alway's love a good conspiracy theory.
I dont know if you have read my post's on my wifes quad. A yamoto 150. I was looking for a used breeze for about $1500.00. After a 6-8 week's of looking I could only find totally abused breeze's for my target price of 1500.00, nice one's were $2800.00-$3000.00, what a new one cost's. So I started looking around on ebay. Whoa way to many choice's. A few weeks of e-mailing seller's with a bunch of question's and I decided to give a yamoto a try. I knew I was fairly mechanically inclined and felt I could over come any problem's. I only tell you this so you can see into my decision making process a little.
The thing I was not expecting was the suspension quality, or lack of suspension quality. The rear shock has 9/16 of a inch of travel. Not even partially acceptable in my opinion. Even the wife asked why bother when I cut the stock shock apart to see why it seemed like there was no rear suspension travel. The front's are a little better but not much and both end's are very,very stiff. As you know as a long time off road rider, suspension is key to sucess off road. All the power in the world is useless if it cant hook up. Let alone how beat up lack of suspension will leave you feeling at the end of a long day riding. So if your theory is correct the japanese are genius. Get you hooked on a inferior product then come to the rescue later with a better product and win you over for life. Kind of sneaky, dont you think?

 

Dragginbutt, Does it suprise you that you, I and spike99 are the only ones that even care about this??? I guess if I am honest it doesn't suprise me.

 

Yeah, it is a sad deal... what I find that bugs me the most is that legitimate people are coming to lists such as this looking for information, and may walk away from here with a totally incorrect view.... I guess that "buyer beware" rings true here as well.

It does sound a little wild, but if you analyze it a little, there are a lot of things that fall into place now that stood out on their own before. Who knows... I can't lose sleep over it... I think I'll go for a ride this afternoon to clear my head and move on....