Cannondale or Z400?
#1
06-21-2002, 05:10 PM
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I am ready to buy a quad and am mainly interested in motocross only. Now I Can't take the $12,500 hit at once for the Moto440 but can go $5,400 OTD that I have been quoted for the Z. I could also stretch and get the Speed for $8,000 OTD if push comes to shove. What I'm thinking though is that I could invest the $2,500 difference between the Speed and the Z into the Z's suspension and probably have a suspension set-up (shocks only) on par or better than the Moto440 (which is better than the Speed's anyway). Now at that point I would have roughly $4,500 to spend in order to get the Z to run with the Moto440. I actually think with that amount of total $ spent that I may be able to surpass the Moto's performance. Now I know there's a lot of different ways to bake a cake and they'll all taste good but why make things harder on myself if the end result will be as good or maybe not even as good? I mean I'm really thinking that the Z may be a little more user friendlier. I'm just a little leary about owning a vehicle that I may not be able to service myself. I mean I don't want to have to go to the dealer for anything at all and I don't see that happening with the Cannondale. I also would like to be able to perform things such as a routine valve adjustment without having to remove the entire engine assembly! Another thing, about the weight situation. When you get the Z dialed in with no lights, after market exhaust and racing rims/tires will it be about the same weight as the Moto440?
#2
06-21-2002, 06:00 PM
You are in the same boat as me. my thing is, I plan on spending around $12,000 or more, but I do not want Ohlin shocks. if the moto came with axis shocks I would buy one. I think you are right as far as the Z. For the same price you could build either machine, but remember, the Z needs alot of motor work to compare to the dale, but has a cheaper price tag to begin with. I was thinking cannibal with moto mapping and my own suspension (Walsh or houser a-arms with axis shocks) for MX. I too would like to hear some more opinions.
#3
06-21-2002, 06:02 PM
The Z400 will never be as lite as the C'dales's, aluminum simply weighs less than steel. And yes the C'dales require a little more maintenance and you do have to drop the motor to do valve adjustments, we've been told C'dales next generation motor will resolve that problem. But the C'dales are a high performance sports quad unlike anything you've ever seen before. If you want cutting edge technology in a quad, get a C'dale. Old technology, get the Z400 or any of the other steel framed, carburated, no EFI, no aluminum frame, no Holeshots, no Ohlin's, super strong axle unlike some other quads that I won't mention, hydraulic clutch, the list just goes on and on. etc.,!!
#4
06-21-2002, 07:53 PM
I thought according to Knowsalot Cannondale only lightened the Cannibal by 5 pounds. The Z is supposed to weigh something like 373 dry so your only lighter by 3 pounds with the Cannibal you could make up that difference easily. If you got rid of the lights cut the plastic put on carbon fiber rims and a full aftermarket exhuast I bet you would shave a lot more than 3 pounds. Most engine guys think you can get 50hp out of the Z and there are a lot of engine mods right around the corner for it. As of now you can't get that much out of a Dale. I say look at your situation and see what you feel most comfortable with doing. I would love a Dale and although I don't like going to the dealer either I have no plans of racing so my mainenance would be much lower than yours if your hitting the track to race and practice every week.
Another thing to keep in mind is I love new technology as much as the next guy but if it never catches on with the other companies for 5 or 10 years the costs of repairs isn't going to come down much and the dealers knowledge of the technology is going to grow much slower. I'm no mechanic but I've seen SparkyEX change the oil in his Dale and I know I could do that as well as change the plug and clean the airfilter but that's about it. I would definitely feel better about having one if the dealers where more knowledgeable about servicing them.
And last but not least it's your cash do what you got to do other peoples opinions are nice but I know I would feel like a tool if I spent a lot of money based on other peoples advice (mine included) and wound up unhappy with the purchase.
Another thing to keep in mind is I love new technology as much as the next guy but if it never catches on with the other companies for 5 or 10 years the costs of repairs isn't going to come down much and the dealers knowledge of the technology is going to grow much slower. I'm no mechanic but I've seen SparkyEX change the oil in his Dale and I know I could do that as well as change the plug and clean the airfilter but that's about it. I would definitely feel better about having one if the dealers where more knowledgeable about servicing them.
And last but not least it's your cash do what you got to do other peoples opinions are nice but I know I would feel like a tool if I spent a lot of money based on other peoples advice (mine included) and wound up unhappy with the purchase.
#5
06-21-2002, 09:00 PM
Gotta step up for this one.
Dirt Diggler,
Who have you personaly talked to that said you can't get 50HP out of a dale. Cannondale states 40+ for the moto. My quads at Trinity right now, Harry may decide to Play around with my quad and see what happens. The motor is apart right now. He also thinks we could give up some RPM and get a stroker. He has a sample bore coming that puts the displacement to 450cc. Not alot of cc's but every little bit helps. 50hp is closer than some would think.
Will the furture be bright with FI? Don't know, don't care. My quads fast and will be faster. At some point the cost will come inline with the carb stuff. Just like it did in cars.
Does it take a Phd to work on a Cannondale? No but some common sense is needed with any of these.
As far as the Z, well you could do worse.
Buy the Cannibal and put on new a-arms and shocks. Your race ready. The stock motor is starting to win races so why worry about the total HP. Worry about the total package and rider skill it will get you further.
Just my thoughts.
Smitty
Dirt Diggler,
Who have you personaly talked to that said you can't get 50HP out of a dale. Cannondale states 40+ for the moto. My quads at Trinity right now, Harry may decide to Play around with my quad and see what happens. The motor is apart right now. He also thinks we could give up some RPM and get a stroker. He has a sample bore coming that puts the displacement to 450cc. Not alot of cc's but every little bit helps. 50hp is closer than some would think.
Will the furture be bright with FI? Don't know, don't care. My quads fast and will be faster. At some point the cost will come inline with the carb stuff. Just like it did in cars.
Does it take a Phd to work on a Cannondale? No but some common sense is needed with any of these.
As far as the Z, well you could do worse.
Buy the Cannibal and put on new a-arms and shocks. Your race ready. The stock motor is starting to win races so why worry about the total HP. Worry about the total package and rider skill it will get you further.
Just my thoughts.
Smitty
#6
06-21-2002, 09:36 PM
Here is my point Smitty and I'm not fired up or anything if you can educate me please do I'm not afraid to be wrong it means I get to learn something. If you call any race shop the only engine mod you can really get right now is the pipe and a remap I think the biggest hp claim I seen was in the back of Dirt Wheels and it was around 42hp. I haven't even heard of a pro racer with anything but a remap and pipe everything else is handling/suspension mods. There are already a million and one mods for the DRZ400 dirt bike so getting 50+ hp shouldn't be that hard.
Even if your bike is fast and has EFI no one knows the future of Cannondale and there sales numbers (according to knowsalot I'm taking his word as a dealer) are good but no near the bigger companies because they can't produce near as many units. Cannondale is willing to help it customers with repairs and they continue to make new models (like the new Glamis model + the 4 they already have) but the quads are expensive for a lot of us. My point is they need to prove to be reliable over the years and people have to be able to afford them as well as find them and get good service. If Cannondale ever went out of business or shut down quad/bike production you would have a very expensive quad that's hard to find parts for.
If I was going to spend as much money as this guy is ready to I would take everyones opinion with a grain of salt and then go with my gut. He wants to work on it himself and if all of his experience is with carbs and no computers I can see where you would be leary to go out and race a machine that if it breaks down at the track your somewhat lost.
Again I'm not busting your nuts I would love a Dale I just can't afford one for a couple of years. I'm only trying to point out both sides of the story.
If you know who can get 50hp out of Dale let me know SparkyEX loves power!
Even if your bike is fast and has EFI no one knows the future of Cannondale and there sales numbers (according to knowsalot I'm taking his word as a dealer) are good but no near the bigger companies because they can't produce near as many units. Cannondale is willing to help it customers with repairs and they continue to make new models (like the new Glamis model + the 4 they already have) but the quads are expensive for a lot of us. My point is they need to prove to be reliable over the years and people have to be able to afford them as well as find them and get good service. If Cannondale ever went out of business or shut down quad/bike production you would have a very expensive quad that's hard to find parts for.
If I was going to spend as much money as this guy is ready to I would take everyones opinion with a grain of salt and then go with my gut. He wants to work on it himself and if all of his experience is with carbs and no computers I can see where you would be leary to go out and race a machine that if it breaks down at the track your somewhat lost.
Again I'm not busting your nuts I would love a Dale I just can't afford one for a couple of years. I'm only trying to point out both sides of the story.
If you know who can get 50hp out of Dale let me know SparkyEX loves power!
#7
06-21-2002, 10:02 PM
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The Cannibal puts 40HP at the crank and just over 33 at the rear wheels.
If you actually weigh these quads, you will find that the Suzuki weighs much more than what they advertise it weighing. Cannondale uses the "true" method of it's weight.......telling the truth up front. I have never seen the first Japanese made quad that weighed anywhere close to the advertised figures. As far as removing the headlight and trimming the plastic.........you can do the same with the Cannibal.
As far as Cannondale's future is concerned....they will be around for quite some time. Their dealer base is growing rapidly.
As for parts availability IF they were to go out of business.....They follow by the same rules as the Japanese makers. They are required to make available replacment parts for a minimum of ten years for each model beginning with the first year after production is ceased.
You have to remember that people said these things about Polaris when they first came into the ATV market...and right now they are the third best selling brand in the ATV industry.
If someone was looking for a quad to race motocross and coulkdn't afford the 12 grand, I would suggest starting with the Speed if you plan to use the Ohlins.......and if you don't like the Ohlins.....start with the Cannibal.
Just my .02
If you actually weigh these quads, you will find that the Suzuki weighs much more than what they advertise it weighing. Cannondale uses the "true" method of it's weight.......telling the truth up front. I have never seen the first Japanese made quad that weighed anywhere close to the advertised figures. As far as removing the headlight and trimming the plastic.........you can do the same with the Cannibal.
As far as Cannondale's future is concerned....they will be around for quite some time. Their dealer base is growing rapidly.
As for parts availability IF they were to go out of business.....They follow by the same rules as the Japanese makers. They are required to make available replacment parts for a minimum of ten years for each model beginning with the first year after production is ceased.
You have to remember that people said these things about Polaris when they first came into the ATV market...and right now they are the third best selling brand in the ATV industry.
If someone was looking for a quad to race motocross and coulkdn't afford the 12 grand, I would suggest starting with the Speed if you plan to use the Ohlins.......and if you don't like the Ohlins.....start with the Cannibal.
Just my .02
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#8
06-21-2002, 10:10 PM
<< Gotta step up for this one.
Dirt Diggler,
Who have you personaly talked to that said you can't get 50HP out of a dale. Cannondale states 40+ for the moto. My quads at Trinity right now, Harry may decide to Play around with my quad and see what happens. The motor is apart right now. He also thinks we could give up some RPM and get a stroker. He has a sample bore coming that puts the displacement to 450cc. Not alot of cc's but every little bit helps. 50hp is closer than some would think.
Will the furture be bright with FI? Don't know, don't care. My quads fast and will be faster. At some point the cost will come inline with the carb stuff. Just like it did in cars.
Does it take a Phd to work on a Cannondale? No but some common sense is needed with any of these.
As far as the Z, well you could do worse.
Buy the Cannibal and put on new a-arms and shocks. Your race ready. The stock motor is starting to win races so why worry about the total HP. Worry about the total package and rider skill it will get you further.
Just my thoughts.
Smitty >>
Man cant wait to hear how this turns out sounds like it will be good
#9
06-21-2002, 10:54 PM
Hey - StreetOutlaw, would like to know if you ever raced MX ??.
My son started three seasons ago with a brand new EX. At the end of the season we where on our third swingarm, second set of stock shocks, stock rims and tires where junk, had to get bead locks and tires, two batteries, bent sub frame, two skid plates, bashed frame, two bent rotors, two seats (staples keep coming through), tierods bent, ball joints broke and on and on. Got enough points to advance from novice to amature before the end of the season. Got in three races in amature class and came in 5 or worse each time. Needed more power and better suspension.
TMM did our motor to a 416 = $1800
+2 a-arms pep shocks lonestar axel and swingarm $3000
lonestar frame and sub frame $2400
(would never buy another lonestar frame = JUNK)
Now we started our second season with all that new stuff. Still have to buy the stuff that bends and brakes. Tires, handle bars, steering stem, levers, more seats, rotor and on and on.
By mid season we pointed out to expert class. Man do them guys fly !!
Motor back to TMM for 440 stroker upgrade. $1600
Man do them guys fly. Ended the season with fifth in points Need more power
We are now running a YZF426 in our quad. We figure we have about $20,000 in upgrades and we now need a new frame.
We also picked up a Walsh prepared Cannibal. We have the same finishes and a lot less to invest in all that after market stuff. It was well worth the $13,000 they are asking for it. We missed one race and stalled the YZF in one moto. we are 2nd in points and hope to win by the end of the season. Our C-dale has been flawless so far.
It does take about an hour longer on the C-dale to do the same maintaince as on the EX. It is a hassel to adjust the valves but I'll live with that.
If I had it to do all over, knowing what I know now CANNONDALE all the way !!!!
Look at that "Z" real good and tell me you dont see EX there. The frame, shocks and look at that upper a-arm by the ball joint. Looks like a weak link to me.
I love the Z. Its a great woods machine. Cant beat reverse. The motor is awsome. But if you are going to MX, think real hard.
My son started three seasons ago with a brand new EX. At the end of the season we where on our third swingarm, second set of stock shocks, stock rims and tires where junk, had to get bead locks and tires, two batteries, bent sub frame, two skid plates, bashed frame, two bent rotors, two seats (staples keep coming through), tierods bent, ball joints broke and on and on. Got enough points to advance from novice to amature before the end of the season. Got in three races in amature class and came in 5 or worse each time. Needed more power and better suspension.
TMM did our motor to a 416 = $1800
+2 a-arms pep shocks lonestar axel and swingarm $3000
lonestar frame and sub frame $2400
(would never buy another lonestar frame = JUNK)
Now we started our second season with all that new stuff. Still have to buy the stuff that bends and brakes. Tires, handle bars, steering stem, levers, more seats, rotor and on and on.
By mid season we pointed out to expert class. Man do them guys fly !!
Motor back to TMM for 440 stroker upgrade. $1600
Man do them guys fly. Ended the season with fifth in points Need more power
We are now running a YZF426 in our quad. We figure we have about $20,000 in upgrades and we now need a new frame.
We also picked up a Walsh prepared Cannibal. We have the same finishes and a lot less to invest in all that after market stuff. It was well worth the $13,000 they are asking for it. We missed one race and stalled the YZF in one moto. we are 2nd in points and hope to win by the end of the season. Our C-dale has been flawless so far.
It does take about an hour longer on the C-dale to do the same maintaince as on the EX. It is a hassel to adjust the valves but I'll live with that.
If I had it to do all over, knowing what I know now CANNONDALE all the way !!!!
Look at that "Z" real good and tell me you dont see EX there. The frame, shocks and look at that upper a-arm by the ball joint. Looks like a weak link to me.
I love the Z. Its a great woods machine. Cant beat reverse. The motor is awsome. But if you are going to MX, think real hard.
#10
06-22-2002, 12:26 AM
Hi StreetOutlaw,
I was in same situation earlier this year.I wanted to race mx but realized
that if I wanted to compete I needed more of a machine then my slightly modified 400ex.
After thinking about building up 400ex to 440 and adding all the after market add ons, ( A arms, shocks, axels, motor mods, beadlock tires, etc,) versus Cannondale Moto, we decided to go with Moto. I felt that with Moto it is designed and built for mx and as a total package it should be stronger and more reliable then custom built machines.
Thus far I'm very happy with it. It does not lack any power, and it will run head to head with any custom built machines, ie. 426 yz, 440 honda, 250R Honda, modified Banshee's. It handles very good, balance is where it should be when jumping. As for Ohlin shocks, it takes a bit of time to adjust them to your specific needs, but they are very good. On the Moto the front shocks have quite a bit of sag- it's there version of zero
preload shocks and it works quite well.
The frame on the Canondale is very strong, I've already had some pretty bad crashes with it on the track and there is no damage whatso ever.
Also regarding prices for the Moto, some of the dealers will work with you on that. Drop me a note if you are intrested in more info.
ec
I was in same situation earlier this year.I wanted to race mx but realized
that if I wanted to compete I needed more of a machine then my slightly modified 400ex.
After thinking about building up 400ex to 440 and adding all the after market add ons, ( A arms, shocks, axels, motor mods, beadlock tires, etc,) versus Cannondale Moto, we decided to go with Moto. I felt that with Moto it is designed and built for mx and as a total package it should be stronger and more reliable then custom built machines.
Thus far I'm very happy with it. It does not lack any power, and it will run head to head with any custom built machines, ie. 426 yz, 440 honda, 250R Honda, modified Banshee's. It handles very good, balance is where it should be when jumping. As for Ohlin shocks, it takes a bit of time to adjust them to your specific needs, but they are very good. On the Moto the front shocks have quite a bit of sag- it's there version of zero
preload shocks and it works quite well.
The frame on the Canondale is very strong, I've already had some pretty bad crashes with it on the track and there is no damage whatso ever.
Also regarding prices for the Moto, some of the dealers will work with you on that. Drop me a note if you are intrested in more info.
ec