What kills me about the "crazy rider almost causing a head on crash" scenario, or actually crashing, is that one blames the other. Perhaps there is some blame, but shouldnt the huge majority of blame be on the fact that the trail was 2 way.

2 way trails invite this occurence.

I have only had one similar incident, almost having a head on crash, but it was on 1 way trail, and the other guy was going the wrong way. He wasnt far from where the 2 way split, and turned back to take the correct {and marked} trail. My local trails have about 1500 yards 2 way trail, well marked, and the rest of the 40 miles is 1 way. I havent heard of any head-ons anywhere here, and very few backward rider sightings.

Its the 2 way trail that sets up the situation, and regardless of what the "incorrect" rider was riding and how he was riding it, if it were one way, there would be no trouble, save for the occasional dummy.

I wouldnt ride dedicated 2 way trail, too many folks have no respect, ride way over their heads, and frankly, worrying about what might be coming at me from the other direction doesnt sound like fun. I have enough problems dodging the trees, without adding 2 way traffic.

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And yes, I'm from "that website", and I have both types of machines. And I also advocate working together. The renegade dummies of both riding genres cause the damage and problems that the world sees and uses against ALL riders.

Robert

 

That would be great except for one thing, I ride in NJ. We have no trails that are legal. We have 3 motocross tracks that offer a practice track and 1 ORV park that is about 240 acres in all.

The road I spoke of is actually a paper road. An unpaved road wide enough for two vehicles to pass. In this state being an outlawed sport, we have to ride what we get away with. It is more important being our state is so fascist to pay closer attention when out riding.

I know a land owner that has roughly 1200 acres of land he has been trying to open an ORV park. The state refuses to allow this. Why? Because his land is worth more developed than sitting as an ORV park.

Worse yet the state is trying to steal away his land. His land is located in a fringe area of the pinelands reserve, zoned for recreation/developement. In order to get a permit you have to get the permission of the Pinelands Comission. The Pinelands Comission is headed by the state DEP. Niether will allow for the permit. Now they are proposing to re-zone the area as preserved. Which will turn the land value into just above worthless. After beating the land owner up with fines and lawyer fees to fight and open this park he is almost broke. They will do this till he is broke and desperate and buy the land from him for pennies. After a couple of years go by they will re-zone again for developement. Then the state sells the land to a huge developer who donated to the election fund quite generously for millions.

This is one example of the shape my state is in. The ATV club I belong to (thats right I ride two wheels and belong to an ATV club, go figure) has taken steps to become politicaly active. We have gained the endorsment of the Sierra club (if you can believe that) to help fight for land to ride. (we got thier endorsement by helping them clean up an area in the pines and show we are responseble people)

It is one steep up hill battle. The crappy thing is that the hardest part in getting prepared to fight the state is getting other riders behind us. No one seems to care. This state has over 200,000 ATvers and we have only been able to get 100 members which only a handful are active. It sometimes seems like a losing battle. No one seems to get the "Strength in Numbers" theory.

OK! I just went way off topic and got long winded. (sorry)

 

Our great state has to still be one of the ultimate adventures on a motorcycle and I would suggest checking these people out if you ever consider coming here.http://www.cycleconservationclub.org...ccc_vmain.html
They put on great rides, see places that you won't see on our official state maps and despite my differences with their leadership; I'm CERTAIN are fine people that will show you all the best time possible (I am very proud of our hospitality up here and most Michiganders are a joy to know).

These folks built the system and have every right to be proud of that fact. Unfortunately, in the year of our Lord 2005?.....we have pressures on that same system (which won't ever be going away) that we need to address together.

 

I agree. There is no way that our systems will ever be able to safely handle future loads on it without some accomodation for this concept. We've already got pay to play trails in the Appalachians that are an accident waiting to happen from ignoring this issue today. Some routes are difficult to adapt to this because of land use restrictions; yet I don't think the effort is being made to go this way like it should be.

One thing to consider is how any of these changes might affect established businesses along the trail; as this shouldn't be left out of any considerations.

 

The reports about the CCC that I have read are what gave me the impression that the trail system there was m/c only. All I ever read about in cycle news and m/c mags is the m/c trail system. No mention of quad over crowding on trail's. The CCC does seem to be a great organization for a m/c rider in michigan, but I am getting the impression that they are not the quad riders friend.

 

We have had people step up to the plate here in Michigan; yet when it comes to simply standing up in front of the people that matter and asking just why we are constantly getting the shaft stuck to us....these guys and gals would rather turn their talk to who's going to bring the weenies for the next ride or how cool the next batch of t-shirts are going to be.

For example:

MONTHS ago...I stood up at our state orv advisory board meeting and asked when in the heck our state would "allow" one more orv representative from the "at-large public" on to the board. For the last year or better; they had been using this "carrot" as an excuse to blow off everything wrong with their department with this comment..."Well if you don't like it...Apply!"

Again, months pass with no word (and absolutely no interest from the atving community) with the question finally asked and an answer given which is ANOTHER 6 months in the future. Yet there is one caveat. The state suddenly announces that anybody who actually owns an orv....NEED NOT APPLY!!! (with not a word from the cyclists on the board; who obviously didn't want another "non-cycle" user with any power on that board anyways!).

What's worse....is at that same meeting; I asked just why none of OUR advisory board members...<u>didn't even have a publicly published way to contact them</u>. The answer? (which, obviously, none of these board members had a "problem" with....) WAS THAT THE PUBLIC SHOULD BE RUNNING ALL QUESTIONS FOR OUR ADVISORY BOARD (you know, the people who are supposed to be bringing OUR concerns to <u>them</u>).....THROUGH THE DNR!!!

And again, here sit the motorcyclists with big 'ol grins on their faces and "no objections"......while the atvers in the audience just sit there with dumb looks on their faces! (and these guys STILL won't speak a word about that edict today....like it never happened!)..

How do you keep excited about fighting for something if the people around you don't either care enough to fight also....or are evidently not "intelligent" enough to KNOW what's worth fighting for....when it hits them in the face?

The sad part being that you start to wonder just how many people have given up before you who have <U>also</U> experienced the same slack-jawed apathy in years past (sorry folks, but the time for describing our sport as "new" is long over).

 

What Needs to be done, and what gets done os two different things. Sure Bikers and quaders need to come together, But Honestly Can you BLAME the bikers for wanting some areas to themselves? After all, quaders are 3 times more likely to give an area bad press for a few simple reasons.

1. Quading involves less balance. less skill. Meaning more and More are apt to just head out into the woods on one after an weekend impulse buy with little or no direction on where to ride.

2. Quading often often involves alcohol, Sorry, but its a fact. these big utes are made to carry Coolers on the oversized racks, and when doing so, alot of riders stuff them with beer.. Anywhere I have ridden I have seen this, Jeesh Sometimes I have seen the same group stop for a "beer break" every 20 minutes or so and kept passing them.

3. Quads simply destroy the trail. A few Irresponsible Motorcycle riders run off the trail, and you see nothing but a skinny track. A few irresponsible quads run off the trail and you see Huge Swamps. This Problem is Magnified by sites like Highlifter, who offer tips, tools and equipment to make your quad better at attacking mud. Afterall, once you have put 28" Mud tires, Snorkels, winch, gorilla axles and a clutch kit in your 4x4 Quad, are you SERIOUSLY going to be content just riding down a normal trail? Nope, your gonna now search out terrain that will CHALLENGE your new modified toy, which in turn spreads by word of mouth or also by site and before you know it, another trail has become nearly impassable on a stock quad.
There are more than a few places on public riding areas where I dont dare tread with Our stock sportsman. I mean it would just disappear. SOme trails Just aren't even passable on a Machine I consider to be one of the most capable out there in stock form? WHats Up with this? Sorry, you JUST DONT SEE THIS FROM BIKERS.

With Bikers you see some disregard for safety, you see some speeding etc,, but you know what, YOUR the only one seeing it. With dmage done by quads by irrespnsible riders, it's Very easy to photgraph or video deep ruts, eroded stream banks, public trespass and everything else, throw them on a website like sierraclub.org for the whole world to see and actually BETTER the environmentalist cause.

What the Bikers are thinking is, well go out tear up your riding area, get YOUR area shut down, dont bother ours.
That way The bikers arent held responsible for the damage done, and can still Enjoy their nice single track trails.

This is the WRONG way to think, but nonetheless.

 

ktmguy70, I pretty much agree with most of your comments made here about the situation. The only thing I disagree with is comment # 1. I used to think this way. now I am convinced that the real problem is that the quad "appears" to be safer and require less skill, and at slow speeds it probubly is true, possibly up to maybe 25-30 mph depending on terrain. The problem as I see it is people are attracted to the quad because of its seems safer. Now when a quad gets going fast is when the m/c stability kicks its butt. Of course the dirt bike appears dangerous so someone without any experience wont try it. The quad on the other hand seemed safer. Is safer at low speeds, but when the quad gets going fast it is in trouble, way more affected by off camber situations, rocks, bumps etc.... So it is that appearance of safety and less skill required that fools them into trouble. Just my opinion. What do you think?

 

Yes, Thats more or less what I meant to say.. It's just too easy for ANYONE to get on one and ride without any knowledge, Not only of the Machine, but also of the legalities of it. I think Quads are 2-3 times more likely to be an impulse buy compared to motorcycles. Afterall Its Much easier to tell your wife " Well we can haul firewood, use it for other yard work, plow the driveway in the winter" Etc... Than it is to say, well" I can really eat up some single track on this new bike". L we all know what it's like..

The Problem is further intensified by the fact you dont see parents putting their 10 year old on their xr 650 to ride alone, yet they wont hesitate to put them on a Brute Force 750 and brag to their Buddies about it.

 

One of the biggest problems with ATV safety comes from the DEALER!

Whether you know it or not,dealers are OBLIGATED to tell any ATV purchaser WHERE/HOW to get ATV safety training,but 99% of them DONT give a damn,because there is no $$ in it for them.

I do ATV safety education classes for the major manufactures of ATVs and the cost is FREE to all original buyers.And there is also a 100 dollar INCENTIVE to come to this class and participate,YET,MOST dealers dont tell their customers about this incentive.It has to start WITH the DEALERS first,than the PARENTS must also make sure that THEY take a safe approach to their youths riding activity,no matter WHAT type of motorized vehilce they operate.EVERY dealer within 40 miles of my home have my bussiness card,you'd be suprized how many dont care about giving them out.