I agree with MWQ in that no machine is no safer than any other after the first few miles an hour and will go a step further to claim that the intelligence involved in realizing this is the only factor that need to be discussed as far as overall "skills" are concerned. One will kill you just as fast as the other and the fact that one machine has the potential to do more damage?...AGAIN....has more to do with the fact that both groups must work together to prevent it....than one group pointing to the other as the cause of it.

We have irresponsible riders in both sports and I'm going to guess that the RATIO from good to bad is probably pretty much similiar. My point being that nobody in either group has been willing to single these people out and/or make examples of them in the public eye......which is the <u>only</u> place these people will "miraculously" find their lord and savior. (fines and impoundments speak the same language...no matter what you ride).

 

Yes that is an amazing phenomenon that I will never figure out. I do not for the life of me understand that one. My wifes uncle put his baby, less than 1 yr old, wearing only a diaper, on his honda rancher to take him for a ride. Well the tragedy was close at hand. He hit a bump and the quad rolled, kid was under it when it was all over. Result, severe brain damage, kid is now 14, has all the qualities of a 2 year old now. VERY SAD, families reaction, we hate those damn quads, look how dangerous they are. These folks tried to convince me that I should give up dirt bike riding to set a good example for the family. All I can say is that when I explained to them my take on this act of stupidity, My popularity lesssened. Dont care, some people are too stupid to understand, not my problem.

 

I think the problem is that the dealers are only obligated, not required to give out safety info. I mean if they talk about the dangers of a product while attempting to sell that item, how many people would still buy? And they are only ethically obligated not legally obligated. Seems to be a big difference in this country lately.

 

O.k so what we have here is a Bunch of legitimate complaints and problems with our sport that gives it a black eye.
So This is My suggestion, and I for one am going to start right here with me. Im going to start self policing my public areas. If I see someone Drinking and riding, or tearing off the trail, I'll simply take a few pictures, wait in the parking area to see what vehicle they load up in and promptly hand over the photos and License number to the Ranger, or Police.
Get them off the trail or get Their QUads (or bikes) impounded would go along way in teaching a lesson I feel.

 

That is a great idea, I will do the same. Any one else?

 

mywifesquad,
Actually,DEALERS are OBLIGATED to inform their customers WHERE to get ATV safety training.I work for a dealership and have read the dealership manual several times.When the owner signed his dealership agreement,there are certain obligations that you SIGN before you can get the francise,it goes a little like this,

A customer makes a PURCHASE of an ATV at a dealership,when they are closing the deal with the customer,the SALEPERSON has an ATV RIDER COURSE certificate that MUST be explained in DETAIL to that customer.It outlines some of the POSSIBLE hazards of riding an ATV,and also tells the buying customer that they can receive a 100 dollar incentive for taking part in a free 4 hr ORV safety education class.DEALERS are OBLIGATED [its written in the dealership handbook]to go thru this certificate IN DETAIL with their buying customer.MOST salespeople only tell you that somebody will get ahold of you for free training,''please sign here''-------I see this happen at my OWN dealership and I'll bite off the salesmans head.

I also have turned in a dealership in my area for NOT explaining this ORV rider course certificate to their customers,and these dealers will soon get a warning call from the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

So yes,the dealer IS OBLIGATED to tell its customers of this course,and that does NOT mean,please sign here.

 

I will agree that there are idiots on both sides of the fence. While your assumption that the numbers are fairly equal may be accurate for your locality, they arent here.....But that doesnt really matter, because an idiot is an idiot, regardless of what they ride. What does matter is what the idiot leaves in his wake.

The problem is damage, combined with visibility and cost. Here locally, I would estimate the damage alone ratio at 50% ATV, 30% Cycle, 20% incidental to other damage. What do I call damage? ATV mod bogs, Cycles and ATVs short-cutting, trailhead racing, trail braiding to avoid mud bogs. Then you factor in damage and visibility, and the numbers change immensely, 75% ATV, 10% Cycle, 15% incidental. the damage made by the renegade ATVers is so much more visible to other riders, USFS, Eco-*****, they need look no further.

The you factor in damage, visibility and cost......Thats when the numbers get disfunctional. 99% ATV, 1% Cycle/incidental. Why so much attributed to ATV? When the Cycle causes damage, more often than not short-cutting, the repair is simply pulling a few downed trees over to block the shortcut, done by volunteer labor. The route is closed, the actual damage is minimal, and it heals naturally. The incidental damage, trail braiding to avoid mud bogs, is generally just as minimal as the Cycle short-cut, and just as easily fixed.

But, the ATV mudbog damage is hugely expensive to repair, sometimes well beyond the scope of our club to repair voluntarily with 3 small tractors, and access to larger ones and a Bobcat. Volunteers repair the damage, only to find their efforts have been completely in vain, only 2 days later..... Its reality, intentional damage done by ATVs is a long term, expensive fix, and can easily outpace the capabilities of volunteers to repair.

100% of the trail repairs done to my trails that require an outside contractor to perform were caused by ATVs. About 5 years back, $80,000.00 was paid to repair damage and construct a hardened trail base on about 1/2 mile of trail, because of mud bogs and intentional damage to the previous repairs. My trails are now closed for repairs, re-repairing 95% of the previous repair, fixing damage so severe that it changed the drainage pattern of an 8 acre area, and adding in a couple more new spots. The cost is unknown, since it was bundled with trailhead renovation {to make the trailhead harder to abuse, a 50/50 ATV/Cycle problem}, The whole cost is $266K And these ATV damages have caused the closures to be much longer, due to the difficulty, time, and evaporation needed for repairs.

Thats my local picture.

Are there responsible ATVers here. YES, and you can see the evidence in the trail braids as they tread lightly around damaged areas {still damage, but incidental} Do I blame all ATVers? NO. Is it very easy to look at an ATVer with a certain disdain, simply because the tracks at damaged areas are the same, the cause of extended closures and ugly scars? For some its very easy, others look further. Personally, I look for the guys with hip waders and snorkeled intakes for the automatic evil eye, and others, hard to say, but a helmet is a good sign {and a fairly rare sight} Around here, the renegade/responsible ratio on ATVs at the public trails is skewed by the fact that responsible riders ACTUALLY AVOID the trails, they dont want to ride what the renegades have provided, and they ride private lands. So visibly, the renegades outnumber the responsible, in the eyes of those who ride, oversee, or spy on public trails here.

You know what theyve been up to when they load up. There are no legal mudbogs on or off our trails. When the come in covered in mud, and I know d$%^ well that the trail is 100% dry, that they have been mud bogging off-trail. And you cant forget ATVer apathy, around here there is no ATV club, never has been one attempted. Why? The club-minded riders are off on private lands, enjoying life and avoiding idiots of all types. Cant say as I blame them, sounds pretty good to me!

My opinion of the members of this board? Ive lurked and read a lot of posts, and I would say the huge majority here are responsible riders. And I would love to meet and ride with you, if youre ever in my neck of the woods. And I dont blame you for being upset that you are "painted with the same wide brush" by some, for problems caused by those riding similar machines. If you are tempted to flame, remember that this my my local picture, and I do fight the temptation to generalize. You see, when I re-arrived on the riding scene, even though I was a cycler from way back, all I had to ride for years was an ATV {it was all I could afford, I will leave that for another post!}, and Ive seen those looks and heard those comments.

Frankly I hope other areas have a prettier picture. Mine is pretty ugly.

Robert[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

So what are the ultimate ramifications of not informing customer's? I mean fines? loss of licence? lawsuit? lose your business? Is this true in all state's?

 

Good First hand account there Robert, I never really thought of the COST aspect of Trail damage.. Good Info and definitley worth considering. We had a Gentleman down this way, who has a 300 +- acre riding area recently up his rate for a day pass. It went from 7 dollars to 20 Dollars, with a yearly membership being 400 dollars.. OUCH!! thats alot, however this guy has opened up his property in an area where trails are very scarce, so i say Kudos. Now heres where it gets Interesting, and since he Is a private owner, this works, in other case Im not sure.. Anyway, He has accepted trail maintenace in stead of cash payement. For Instance, One Gentleman Owned a COnstruction company and was going to donate a Backhoe,bobcat and some Lumber. Not everyone is able to do that, however the Offer extended to Manual labor also, where people were getting memberships for digging drainage breaks, clearing trails, filling in low spots, etc.. was a good idea, and I havent been back to see how it worked out yet, but im curious. Maybe this could offset some of your Cost?

 

The costs I referred to are costs for maintaining public trail on USFS property, cost paid for by all citizens, riders or not, through their taxes. The $5 daily/$50 yearly fee income riders pay does not even come close to paying for the repairs on damaged caused by the renegades. An accountant would call it a net loss.

So not only do we have Eco-***** looking at us from the enviromental POV, we have USFS management looking at us, and Washington bean-counters looking at us. You can bet, with tight budgets, $266K will be watched.

And I fully expect the mudboggers to be in full operation immediately upon reopening.......

And I suspect the inevitable repairs to follow will add a new endangered species to the Francis Marion Forest, the bespeckled OHV rider.

In the end, when the trails are closed, it wont be closed for just ATVs or just Cycles.

It will be just closed.......and the Ecos will grin, the bean-counters will have one less column in their spreadsheet, and the USFS will have one less user group to oversee with a limited budget. Everyone will be happy, but not the riders.

Its time for responsible riders to get in the face of renegades reagrdless of what they ride.

Robert