BB,
Exactly WTF do you want,the guy to pop out from behind the computer screen and show you his face before you'll believe its really him that originated this topic?

Let me make one thing PERFECTLY clear to you..The folks of this State do NOT need Dick to come into ANY forum to answer their questions,he has always been accessable to SANE folks..There is only one folk that I know of who complain that Dick is inaccessable to them,and you fit that description.Could it be that just like EVERY other ORV club leader that you've spoken to,that Dick is SICK and TIRED of your continued bitching and moaning too and just conciders the source and IGNORES you?

You need to sit down and take a good look at YOURSELF,because YOU are the ONLY person I know that makes these redicules accusations against our ORV Chairperson.

And as far as not being man enough to walk up and shake your hand at a meeting?You know something John,

'it has been said that folks are often judged by those they make company with'

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

All I am asking the man to do (<u>before</u> we begin this discussion) is to identify just who he speaks for.

When you receive this from somebody:
"Until you establish an attitude similar to the above paragraph, I wish to have no further dialog with you...."

...and all you've been trying to do for 7 years is get a public position on 'anything' from 'anybody' regarding the pressing Michigan orv issues at hand...you would like to finally know that these statements reflect the opinion of either the advisory board, the super-secret "MMRC" or even whoever the DNR has put on their "A" list for back and forth everyday formal/informal discussions relating to our sport.

Again, this is the game they play....ignore all requests for unified poitions on any and all matters from both leaders or orv groups....yet send one guy out to give one-way answers (that he makes very clear from the beginning represent <u>no one official position from anyone)</u>....making neither the user group <u>nor</u> the department responsible for whatever <u>time</u> they attempt to waste (the biggy) or especially whatever is even 'claimed' to be true in that correspondence regarding the program(s) <u>they</u> "behind-the-curtain" oversee for US!

So how about it, Dick...care to speak for anyone for the first time....after all these years of claiming to?....hmm?

 

QUOTE from BB***---and all you've been trying to do for 7 years is get a public position on 'anything' from 'anybody' regarding the pressing Michigan orv issues at hand...you would like to finally know that these statements reflect the opinion of either the advisory board, the super-secret "MMRC" or even whoever the DNR has put on their "A" list for back and forth everyday formal/informal discussions relating to our sport.END of QUOTE****

Were you not in attendance this yr when Dr Nelson gave a presentation on the findings of the 3-4 user group meetings we held [ALL OVER THE STATE] in the last year in regards to what Michigan riders wanted with the new ORV update plan?He CLEARLY gave his response to what the user groups requested at these meetings and gave his recomendations.IMO,public position WAS a given,if you were listening.
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[quote]
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
'...Were you not in attendance this yr when Dr Nelson gave a presentation on the findings of the 3-4 user group meetings we held [ALL OVER THE STATE] in the last year in regards to what Michigan riders wanted with the new ORV update plan?

Uhhh, "muddy"....the question asked was in regards to "leaders" (not individual 'riders') simply standing up with clear and concise positions (again) regarding the everyday issues we face....but <u>please</u> continue! (I just love it when you AOR guys show just why the motorcyclists have had to come on in here and speak for you in the first place!....) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

(Muddy)"...He CLEARLY gave his response to what the user groups requested at these meetings and gave his recomendations......"

If you are referring to Dr. Nelson (the same fine state employee who had to hang his head in shame while admitting that funding for the study of this update plan didn't even approach the last amount thrown at it many years ago)....I could probably file another FOIA request asking for any/all commentary from every major Michigan off-road user group at those meetings....yet when even your own group's excuse for not giving a unified leadership position on this update plan (<u>after</u> the fact) is "well, uhhhh; we kinda figured more people with different positions would 'look' better to the department..." and my current FOIA request shows but one small user group and a land management company as the only unified positions even received by the department on this very important plan itself....what's your point? Clubs who can't even figure out the value of a multi-member unified position on the most important issue we've ever faced...should get some kind of 'break' for not having the <u>intelligence</u> to simply figure out that the opposite is true?

"...IMO,public position WAS a given,if you were listening....."

Again, Muddy; you're going to have to send somebody on up here who can at the very least 'hang' with the conversation, my friend....perhaps your new talking head cycle buddy "2-Trakkr"? (you know, the 'cycle' guy they finally had to send down and join you atvers when nobody on four wheels could talk for <u>themselves</u> even half-way intelligently....a guy that could effectively smooth that transition to light four-wheeled enthusiasts becoming red-headed stepchildren of a motorcycle club?).
If you folks can't distinguish a proudly held and public leadership position on the most important plan unveiled to date....between "Dick" nastily yelling across the room at the meeting you refer to (concerning his super secret and "informal" MMRC's position) with:
"Well (by god)...maybe they (the MMRC) don't have anything to say about it!!!" (the update plan)...
...you need to 'succumb' in the direction that I've been pushing your "we don't want to get involved with politics" ***** for years:
Get involved, get educated and start believing that not only "Richard" or "Jeff" shouldn't always do your thinking/talking for you...but that fighting for the ***opening up*** of this decision process is something that you can be proud of passing down to your children.

Yet if you just want to worry about who brings those weenies to that next 'big ride'... or just what the next club t-shirt or bumper stickers are going to look like, fine....at least add the worry (fact) that nothing is being decided here in Michigan that isn't being done <u>behind closed doors</u> and with an agenda in hand by guys like "Dick" and organizations like his District 14. (uhhhhh, who exactly is your guy's light-four-wheeled legislative director(?)....or has never having a unified opinion on anything political...<U>now</U> forced your group into simply mimicing/adopting not only anything the cyclists have to say...but their director as well???).
C'mon, do it for your kid's sake, guys....or maybe all of these young enthusisasts out there who wouldn't have had a chance in hell of being heard if they ever so much as attempted to pull even half the curtain back that I have to date.

Looks like "Dick" isn't going to claim he speaks for anyone (again)...so let's evaluate what this "latest" Michigan-Orv-Leader-who-won't-admit-to-leading-anyone has said (above)...tomorrow.

 

Exactly the response I was thinking you'd give.

Once again,you did'nt disappoint your audience,

All two of us!

 

That would be 3, except I dont read all of BB's responses. Some of it, but not all. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Yeah but no fair, you are a moderator... Make that four...

Ah yes politics... I admit I don't like them, I don't understand them etc.... I do understand that even though some may expect more movement.. I still see positives being accomplished. And that is a good thing in my book.

No matter what is accomplished, there will be disagreements, missed expectations etc. I think all can relate to that.

What I found interesting in the narrative of the pending legislation, was that there wasn't a set aside for trail BUILDING... IE NEW TRAILS. No set aside funding for land acquisition, no plannig for it, no legwork that has to be accomplished not only on a state level, but also with local governments etc. After all, if a local government went looking for information, or even a POC to assist them in dealing with all the issues involved, I don't see where that information could be tracked down to a specified office, or person... Unless of course I missed something. State wide programs such as a state liability waiver for landowners, tax incentives etc.. all can make it a more attractive option for land owners to get involved...

With budgets apparently 3 to 5 years out... it seems to be a major oversight.

What kinds of volunteer programs are in place where local groups or interested persons can get involved with maintaining riding areas. Equipment is out there... On other threads a while back I posted several sources of equipment designed specifically for small trail building efforts. Center dump trailers, small graders, material hauling carts that are towable by an ATV.... mini excavation machines etc, as well as sources on trail building techniques and design .... It is all public data out there for anyone who can do a google search to get...

The reality is that there is a lot of work getting done.. and it should be noted that we all appreciate the efforts. Even those of us that will probably NEVER get an opportunity to ride the trails you build or maintain. What is a win in one state or jurisdiction is a win for the sport as a whole. The efforts of one individual, or organization they represent is appreciated by us all... and that should be celebrated.

I just want you to know that it is appreciated...

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: BusyRider
"...of late, many things have been put up here, some are quite distance from what really went on and the rumors are spreading..."

The only rumour spreading right now, Mr. Chairman...is that a group here to before considered 'untouchable' here in Michigan orv politics...has now been caught with their hands in the cookie jar regarding Michigan orv funds. It has spread to the point where I was forced to get my information regarding this scandal out of state and the refusal to discuss same here is "par for the course" concerning those invested in same.

"....there are many things to be involved in that are more productive to some extent, than spending time on one, of many websites.. We as ORV people, have far better things to do with our time, than to punch a PC keyboard...."

Well punch away, Mr. Chairman....just don't forget that you have "far better things to do with your time".. when the going gets rough and the questions get a might uncomfortable. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

"...That time could be much better spent, e-mailing a Representative, Senator or MDNR personal stating your wishes...."

Are those the same e-mails I can't find from you or your board concerning the most important orv update plan we have ever considered? The DNR forced me to spend $140 for a copy of your board's commentary or even one major orv group's thoughts on this most important matter during the official commentary period.....yet when the money was sent and the documents arrived...<u>nobody</u> provided the DNR with any of the very same commentary your board and these groups were being pressed <u>beforehand</u> to provide!

"...Better yet, become directly involved and join a club, or form one in your own area...."

Let's see, I joined the first major light 4-wheeled club whose leader sat on your board and wouldn't say a thing about what he did there...I then joined "the second coming" of these major clubs with a leader who sat on your "private council" and refused to reveal the same simple information.
Did you ever think that some of us might just get tired of joining clubs who meet up with you and your gang....then suddenly turn "deaf-mute"?

"...Quite frankly, the future of our sport is in some serious jeopardy. I know that because I am the Chair of the DNR ORV Trail Advisory Board in Michigan...."

It's in serious jeopardy alright.....mainly because every enthusiast with any intelligence has recognized that there is absolutely no up-front discussions being held on any issue which confronts us....and little stomach for being associated with (quote/unquote) 'leaders' who inexplicably fight night and day to keep the light of day from being shone on them.

"...The absolute last thing we want to do, is have a division among us. We need to all be going in the same direction, the same page, as much as possible. Don't care if you 2, 4 or six wheels...."

This must be why my first light 4-wheeled leader insisted that we have nothing to do with the cyclists beyond a 'social level'....while the second (the one who lobbied to suddenly 'join' the cyclists as a 'sub-chapter') wanted me to shut my mouth regarding the cyclists declaring that the next trail built in Michigan...should be 100 miles of "motorcycle only"!!!

"...We are going to have areas of disagreement. That don't mean we have to be disagreeable...."

I used to love it when guys like "Dick" brought this one out of the bag years ago...yet the end result would always be...."yet we just won't allow you to discuss HOW we differ or even WHAT you 4-wheeled enthusiasts desire!
Can we talk about 100 miles of the Tomahawk Trail being actually an atv trail...yet not maintained that way?
Oh heck no.... we cyclists are lobbying the DNR to take even the pictures of your nasty little 4-wheeled machines off that trail's official map...thus giving the impression that you can't legally go down it and CERTAINLY tempering any discussion of actually widening it for the benefit of ALL its users!.
Hey you're "disagreeable" if you so much as question these things!

"...End result will be, we agree far more, than we disagree...."

Sure we'll 'agree'....yet the only 'caveat' Michigan motorcyclists have had for decades with that arms-length relationship...is that "<u>We</u> ride ALL the trails..and by nature of our holier-than-thou two wheel gift from <u>God</u>...you will elevate our machines (and ONLY ours) into a category which allows continued and permenant access to exclusive trails which we and only we will enjoy!!!".
Would you like to hear the questions that these guys will never answer?

How much trail mileage would you "demand" (a lot of you don't realize how arrogant many of these guys are) in a future system pressured by machines that look <u>nothing</u> like the fast dwindling number of your two-wheelers....and when will you stop brainwashing your young membership with the need to be kept "separate" from everybody else?
With the follow-up question being: Why have I never a met a group of kids outside those brainwashed by their local motorcycle group...who seemed 'upset' at whatever you brought to ride that day....as long as they all rode on the same trail and did so together arriving at the same location?

Guys like Dick have been trying to twist this issue for years about "working together"....yet when <u>was</u> the last time you witnessed an 'atver' complain about motorcycles on the trail....while motorcyclists proudly bashing quads is almost a foregone conclusion from enthusiasts who <u>already</u> have their very own exclusive trails **<U>and also</U>** ride every motorized trail ever put down from the beginning of time!
I'll work together alright....I'll work together at putting a parallel trail right down beside ours (if you're lucky) and work together at turning your motorcycle trail into the type of multi-use variety that we <u>all</u> can enjoy. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
And the second you start 'crying' about how you may not want to work "together" on either of those simple projects?....I will work "together" with my fellow state residents to reveal just what hypocrites you folks are when it comes to all this reverse psychology nonsense <u>in the first place</u>.

I'll continue when I get time and not skip over a statement nor refuse to answer a question (you can do that when you have absolutely nothing to hide and absolutley no reason to <u>lie</u> about any of this....

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"...What I found interesting in the narrative of the pending legislation, was that there wasn't a set aside for trail BUILDING... IE NEW TRAILS. No set aside funding for land acquisition, no plannig for it, no legwork...."

Ahhhhh, but you see, DB.....these guys have been angling to build a big system outside their city slicker suburbanite homes for years now here in Michigan...a riding area which will allow the continued neglect of the 3,000 mile system we have now ....yet save them the drive they (and we all) must take now north to spread the wealth beyond their big city lights (you know, rural areas traditionally shafted in state funding and wholly dependent on the tourist buck).
Put it this way, DB....these guys are so adamant about refusing to even discuss this issue or even the impact it will have on the trail system...that the last club who put the development of this area on their mission statement?....had to re-write that same mission statement with said goal left out when I continually brought the subject matter up and wouldn't let them squash it.
Heck, even the DNR has refused to reveal any information as to any and all ongoing discussions regarding the formation of this area....which is the exact reason these guys are taking the issue of this 750 miles of new trail 'obtained' behind the scenes and this $4 million of extra money behind the same curtain.

You're not "missing' anything, DB...it's simply the same game they've been playing for years now with these issues...and they've just become arrogant enough to believe that they can talk all they want about it....yet the chances are you'll be just plain too stupid to pick up on <U>any</U> of it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

They have a name for folks like BB..

Here is a guy who LOVES to complain,but not once in the 5 yrs I've known him,does he offer a SOLUTION to the same issue's/concerns in which he speaks of. Nobody is better at pointing fingers for the faults of our sport better than BB either.

I'd just like for once to read a post by him that comes up with some sort of a solution to some of our problems instead of the finger pointing.

Im wondering what BB would have acchomplished in two yrs time if HE were our ORV Advisory Board Chairperson?