As always, you make some well thought out points. Here's my gut-shot take on them:

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

Because not all parents are capable of making good decisions.</end quote></div>

Should they be parents then?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
If you throw in the fact that in many cases, parents don't "Know" the dangers invovled, then the sympathetic crowd may be inclined to cut them a little slack. </end quote></div>

That's true about the sympathetic crowd, but I think most of the parents are overly protective and perceive danger in ATV's in an exaggerated way. The stories we hear about, like grandma letting little Johnny ride up n down the road while she does dishes, are far from the norm. Most parents probably chew their nails to the elbows while their kids are on ATV's.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
This is one area where I wish all manufacturers could take the lead. Honda has a lot of material available for parents to use that can help them make informed decisions on correct sizing of teh machine, doing a fair assessment of your child's reasoning ability and even riding tips. They do not pull any punches when they lay out the dangers either. </end quote></div>

I wish they would too! Keep the government out of it.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
Not all the others, especially the secondary markets do this. IF they did, then perhaps we could then start to think as you suggest. It just isn't so though... </end quote></div>

That may be true about the secondary markets, but just because that is true, doesn't mean we can't think as I suggested. I can think of a LOT of parents that would suddenly become very pissed off if their kids were no longer allowed to ride ATV's


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
There has to be some formal guideline. Like it or not, we are a society with rules. Without them, it would be pure chaos. Most parents do not even know that they can ask for teh data, or know where to look to get it. </end quote></div>

Yes, we need rules, but we need freedom too. There has to be a balance. I don't want lawless chaos going on, but I also don't want the government telling me how to ride an ATV or raise my kids. Given a choice, I'd favor the lawless chaos over total dictatorial control.

Once any law restricting freedom is on the books, hell will freeze solid long before that law is ever taken off. For instance, in many places of the country dancing is STILL illegal. They just don't really enforce the law.

I happened to catch part of "The Jerk" with Steve Martin on TV the other day and it made me do some thinking....
If a world renowned knife thrower came to town, and after a short exhibition, you decided to volunteer to stand against the wall while he threw knives at you. If he missed and hit you, would you sue? Do you think you should win the suit? Ok, say he didn't miss and everything went well. So, now you let you son or daughter (12-16 yrs old or so) volunteer. Suppose the guy misses... Should the child sue? Should you sue? Should the State sue? What if the knife thrower was long longtime friend of yours,,,, a war buddy who saved your life in the war??? Would you sue? Would you want the State to sue against your will? Should all knife throwing be made illegal just incase somebody decides to volunteer??? Or should it be expected to have "obvious dangers" such that if anyone decides to volunteer, he alone reaps the rewards??? Is a normal human capable of understanding the risks associated with knife throwing by mere inspection? Or do they need the risks explained to them by a qualified expert?

You'd think some dangers would be plainly obvious,,, but you never know.... There was a guy somewhere that decided he was going to trim his bushes with a push lawnmower. He grabbed the mower from the bottom and cut off his fingers. He sued the manufacturer and won. That is why today we have those little flappy handles we always tie or tape down so the mower doesn't shut off while we reach down to grab an obstacle out off the lawn. Good thing for that guy I wasn't the judge on that case! Because of ONE idiot, millions and millions of people have to be inconvenienced. Btw, is there an age limit to operate a lawnmower?

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

Reply to private post: You don't allow private replies..... So I put it here... </end quote></div>


My box must be full or something... I'll look into it.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
Nah, I am a big boy.. it takes a lot to get me riled up. I fully understand your position... I was there once. I guess I have mellowed with age.. or discovered that there are times when it is best to choose your battles. To be honest with you, there is no right or wrong answer. Some people reading these comments will be influenced by what we say.. others will not. the point is that both points of view can be presented.. and hope that the people reading it can make up their own minds.

I don't try to degrade anyone.. but like you, I try to make sure that both sides of the issue are represented. That way there is balance... If you read some of my comments from 4 years ago, You would swear it was a different person writing them. </end quote></div>

Yes, yes,,,, I'm probably close to half your age and I already see that some of the things I've said,,, and not only said, but jumped up n down fervently about, I no longer agree with. On some issues, I have grown into the person my younger self would have been fighting with. .... and I have a long way to go yet.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
I have come full circle on many of the issues. I am a big safety advocate, After breaking a leg, pulling a knee out of socket and crushing my ankle, and having to carry around about 3 lbs of steel in my leg to hold it all back together, I can attest to the merits of good safety gear, and using your head. </end quote></div>

Isn't there way to be safe and be out from under the thumb of the government? One person's definition of safe isn't always another's... Is it?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
I also am vocal on behalf of kids. And their parents. Kids trust their parents to make decisions for them that are safe. I can't imagine a child thinking that their dad is capable of making a decision that would put them in harms way. </end quote></div>

Well, my parents were over protective.... Look how I turned out, LOL. I wasn't allowed to have anything with an engine, including a car, untill I was 18 and then nobody could tell me otherwise. Next thing you know I was doing 100+ with no helmet and just shorts, sneakers, and sunglasses on a daily basis on my 750 Honda. Total Rebel! Until I almost drove over the side of a mountain... I won't own a street bike now,,, because I know how I will get.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
Unfortunately that isn't always the case. I for one don't want to be put in that position, and most parents I think would agree with that. The problem is that most parents can't think past where to put gas in it. they gas it up, get it running and go back in the house. Those are the ones that you read about in the paper when their kid gets killed. </end quote></div>

You really think most parents think like that? I think most parents either understand ATVs and usually ride as well, or they don't understand them and therefore impose irrational restrictions on the child do to ignorance (as was my case when I was a child). The rest are out of the normal range of the curve.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
Fear is a big factor too, and there are not too many children out there that can react in a predictable manner when put in a dangerous position. They need to be taught good habits from the start, and practice it religiously. Under parental supervision. </end quote></div>

This is true. But some, like me, taught themselves.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
The bottom line is we all need to learn responsibility. Parents being parents comes with a price... acting responsibly, and making good decisions that can and may cost a child their life is a big one in my book. Does it mean I am against kids riing. No. But the caveat there is that I feel we as parents have a responibility to educate ourselves, and to protect the kids. If we don't then they should be doing something else. </end quote></div>

Well said! I agree very much with that!

 

Is it a case of teaching yourself or just being lucky that you survived? I know in my case, looking back, I can't for the life of me understand why I survived it. I mean I did all the wrong things I rail about now. Short sleeves.. if I wore a shirt at all. No helmet, or at least the one I had occasionally didn't fit well because I was young, could only afford one and knew that it had to last me for several years as I "Grew". And I had parents that absolutly refused to spend a dime on my habits. They were Ok with it if I earned the money and bought the stuff with my own cash.. (I bought my first snowmobile for $1200 saved from mowing grass and selling cold drinks at the races) ANd back in the 60's, that was a LOT of money. I also bought a quarter midget, go-kart, mini bike and an SL-100 Honda prior to graduating school. I was a workahaulic for sure. I had 2 jobs and graduated highschool.. and found time to romance a few too... Anyway, I was a maniac on wheels. I have the bumps, bruises, scrapes and scars to prove it. I have crashed in ways that should have killed me many times. I have taken out 50 ft of snow fence with my face, Had my Jaw wired shut for a year, broken more bones than I care to remember, flew through the air without a catch fence, know what a flying W is, Did the cartwheel in the air, invented the no hander lander and didn't crash, been on one wheel on an ATV for a long way until it finally got tired of me defying gravity and pounded me into the mud, hold the local record for wheelie king on my SL100 no less, been known to run from the Cops and get caught when a well meaning citizen showed the officer where I lived ( I beat his butt for that). Yeah, I know from personal experience and is why I can get on my soap box today. If we can help one person take the time to think before they do something incredibly stupid, then maybe we have helped.
Oh and I think I'd be one of those that would be denied the pleasure of reproduction... The real neat thing is, that with time, we all figure it out... Even though it takes a lot of hard lessons to get some of us to admit it... Life has a way of equalizing things out... Pain is a great attention step...

 

Wow there Gary! You are either one LUCKY or UNLUCKY soul! You might as well say I've never crashed at all compared to your history, lol. I've bounced my head off a tree a few times and flipped a quad more times than I can count, but never broke anything (on me that is). So, did I teach myself or am I lucky??? I don't know.... That is a very good question. Of course, I'd like to think I taught myself and had some good luck sprinkled around about in there. For 10 yrs I was a roofer. And for 10yrs I never fell off the roof. I consider that luck. I am a pretty sure-footed individual, and I think that increased my odds of not falling, but 0 out of 3500 seems like luck to me. (and if you'd seen some of the jobs I did,,, 45 degree angles 2 stories up,,, you'd agree). But I'm getting older now, and besides my body telling me its time to slow down, my brain is telling me its only a matter of time before my luck runs out. So, I weened myself out of the roofing business 5 yrs ago. Maybe that's luck that I'm smart enough to recognize that... I don't know.

Maybe it looks dangerous to the casual observer when I'm riding my quad full bore, crawling on a roof, cutting limbs outta trees, or plunking down a yr's pay on a housing stock,,, but in reality, I feel its no more dangerous than a ride at the amusement park. As you said, its all about thinking it out before you make a move (and a wee bit of luck). ie. my buddy gets a warrior. I decide to take it for a ride across his field. When I get back he asked why I didn't get on it. I said I did the best I could, but its a strange ride on a strange place... I don't want to wreck it! What if there had been a big hole in the field? The whole time I was riding I was bracing for the "what if" scenario of hitting a hole. Give me a few laps around the field and I'll make it look dangerous! Or give me a helmet and a false sense of security and I'll really show you how to get hurt!

I have another bud that likes to come over and wreck his quad just about every time he rides. You can just about bet within 5 minutes of him firing it up, you'll hear it go silent and walk around back to see him on his back with the quad pointed straight up toward the sky (and a few more pieces of plastic scattered around the yard). He once ran my bayou straight off the side of a mountain,,, totaling the quad. If not for that tree he kissed, he might have really gotten hurt. The other day he drove his truck straight off in a ditch. I had to tow him out. .... And he wonders why nobody will let him drive their stuff, lol. Anyway, you just can't teach him anything. He is what he is. We've been friends since the 80's and if 20yrs isn't enough time, I'm not putting much faith in another 20. He never gets hurt though (aside from bloody noses n scrapes n that). Never wears any protection either. I'd hate to see him with a helmet on,,, he'd probably break his neck! Anyway, my friend has a son. Let's call him Sonny. He's 14, strong as an ox, size 13 shoes, about 150-160 lbs. My bud wants to take Sonny with us riding in the mountains. He's been doing pretty well around the yard on the 87 230 quadsport. He can handle the clutch, he can handle the kickstarter, and he can run through all the gears pretty well now. He's been riding about 4 months around easy trails and the yard. No accidents that I know of. The kid is pretty timid and won't go very fast or take any chances. I think he will do pretty well. What do you think? My bud says he wants Sonny to wear a helmet when we go, but he says a lot of things... We'll just have to see what happens. If he does wear one, it will be the very first time (to my knowledge) the kid has ever had one on. What are your thoughts on this situation?

Oh, I deleted all the messages in my private message box. So, if I still can't receive them, there's something else going on that I'm not aware of.

 

Well I think you have your friend pegged alright... And as far as his son is concerned.. keep reminding him to wear one.... He will get the message. If you wear one, he probably will follow a good example. I have several helmets tht I throw in teh back of the truck when I go. I have given several of them away. Especially when I see kids without one. I also have a standing deal with my local dealer. If he gets a kid in there without a helmet, and obviously the parents can't afford one, he hands one to them and puts it on my bill. Over the past 15 years, I think I have bought 8 or 10. It is worth it to me. He gives me the helmets at cost. I don't kno wwhen they go out or to who. I don't care. Another deal is I belong to a couple local riding clubs. We are always passing around kids gear. Helmets, boots, chest protectors, gloves, goggles etc. When a kid outgrows it, they throw it in my truck.. And any time their kid needs something they are welcome to look through the stuff. If it fits, its theirs. It don't cost me nothing, and you make a lot of good friends along the way. These are a few of the ways that individuals can give back that cost only time.. Heck, I even drag my Warrior along on most trips in case a buddy breaks... I don't think I have gone a single trip without someone using it. If they break it, they fix it. Works for me.. Even had a guy give me an old Warrior for parts. It has a good frame, and suspension parts. I have already used the bodywork... handlebars, bumpers etc on mine when somebody crashes it.
As for speed.. ther eis a time and place for everything. When done in teh proper setting, I say let her rip. That is why I keep my raptor around. But I think I ride the utes more than anything these days. I have spent 5 summers healing one way or another with the broken bones, knees etc.. so it is time to get at it this summer again. After 7 no make that 8 surgeries on the knee, and one major one to put my ankle back together, plus another 18 months learning to walk again... I take things a little slower now. The good thing is I can walk without my cane now... that is a major improvement. Still can't kick start my dirt bike, but I can live with that. Probably break something again if I were on it anyway. By the way, I claim to not be to blame for most of them.. but there were a few, espcially on my snowmobiles that were definately caused from using too much throttle and not enough common sense. Most of my early broken bones were racing deals... I have no excuse for the latter ones though... I call them senior moments now...

 

If I was Saint Peter, I'd definitely have a spot reserved for you! Not many fellows I meet here on these forums make it off to general conversation with my friends, but you'll definitely be one of them. I'll tell him what you said about the deal with your dealer and you distributing gear at riding locations. I'll let him stew on that for a while, but like I said, his intention is for his son to wear a helmet. But it wouldn't come as a big shock to find no helmet when we got there. I can't lead by example because I won't wear a helmet. I like the wind in my hair and to be able to hear and sense my environment. That's part of the ride. Helmets to me are like,,, well,,, they're like condoms. They may give you a degree of protection, but they take a lot of the feeling away too. Now, if I was going to be stunt riding and jumping over cars, I'd want to wear a helmet. But just cruising along a trail,,, I don't see what the big deal is. If I had to wear a helmet each time I went out for a ride, I would probably not ride as much. May even sell off a quad or two and find something else to get involved in.

As for snowmobiles, I've never been on one, but I hear they're death traps. They are insanely fast and there is nothing to do on one going slow. You have to go fast to have fun. Then the white snow hides dangers and you plow right into them and land in the hospital. I have a few buddies in Ohio that got mangled pretty good on snowmobiles. I think I'd have to have a healthy dose of fear before ever climbing on one.

It probably is a good thing you can't ride the bike. Too much leg work involved in that anyway. You could twist an ankle just taking a turn. As you are probably WELL aware of, it takes a LONG time for dense tissue to heal. And it takes even longer as we get older. But at the same time, you don't use it, you lose it. So, there must be a happy medium in there somewhere. I remember once I took a month or two off from roofing. When I went back to work, I grabbed this huge ladder to carry it around the house. When I did I heard my back snap and felt this sharp pain. I thought, "well, I can go home and lay in bed for months waiting for this to heal up or I can keep working and it will work itself out in a day or so." Well, I kept working and a few days later I was fine. Amazing, but in 10yrs of lifting heavy things and being bent over all the time I've had my fair share of back problems.... And I always make a point to work the problem out, even if it means doing extra work for no other reason. Cuts n scrapes are the same way. If I ignore them and continue as normal, they go away quickly. But if I nurse them, they hang around for a LONG time and usually end up infected and a big hassle. I'd much rather put a stinking heap of dung on a cut than a bandaid. I don't know all the science behind it, but that's what I've noticed so far in life.

 

Well, I can't say I agree with you on the helmet thing... but it is your life, not mine. Part of that personal decision thing we always talk about. I would hope you reconsider, but then again it is your choice. As for kids now, that is a different deal altogether. Just remember the urge to be like dad is strong in youngsters....

I have always been a big helmet freak I guess. I've had friends get seriously messed up without them. Actually was involved in a race once where a guy had a bike land on his head. The only thing that saved him was the helmet. I was a believer after that.

And lastly, my eldest son crashed at very slow speed on his crotch rocket a few years back. The law here says you wear a helmet... and it saved his life when he fell into the side of a parking curb. Maybe doing 2 miles and hour and slipped on oil... but he cracked the helmet. That would have been his skull... He wears them without complaint now. I know being in the wind is great... but being out there riding sure beats laying in a vegetative state with a cracked noggin... Just food for thought and I'll leave you alone. Respectfully suggested one friend to a friend...

 

Well, its good that we can talk civily and still have different view points. Usually, by now, I would have been called a slew of names and a lot of references to my mental development would have been raised. Maybe together, my friend, we can find some common ground.

See,,, I don't race. If I did, I would wear a helmet. I don't jump very high off the ground either. I don't put myself in positions where its at all likely I will crash; or, if I do crash, the injuries will be minimal. In other words, I ride responsibly and not to show off or test myself. Even so, there are occassions that I crash. One time I was plowing my trails and I hit a stump and the quad flipped forward, dumping me off the front. I hurt my leg and back (my back landed on the bars or plow or something). No big deal though. The big problem was getting the mangled plow out of the quad so I could get it back home. I've flipped so many times like that I'm not sure I can count them all. So, its no wonder I'm wide-eyed and tight fisted riding through trails with big rocks. I put bigger tires on the front and lowered the back just for that reason. Flipping forward scares the hell outta me because its happened so many times. I don't get on a quad without the expectation that at any minute I'll flip over the bars, so I ride accordingly. If I didn't have that fear, I would probably be a vegetable by now.

I know the consequences are grave if my head meets a harder object. Contrary to popular belief, I'm of sound mind and understand the risks invloved. And I'm willing to take the risk for a bigger reward. Even climbing on an atv comes with risk. All atv riders must accept this risk if they want to ride. I choose to accept a bigger risk. Kids, I don't think should have a choice. I think it should be up to their parents.... and the parents strongly urged to do everything in their power to protect their kids. But if there is a parent somewhere that, for some reason, doesn't want their kids to wear helmets... Should I fight them on it? I know if my friend said, " No child of mine is wearing a helmet!" I would respect that and go on my way. But should I stop being friends with him over it? Should I beat him senseless over it? Where should I stand?

 

heh heh... If you could ask YOUR parents today, what would be their opinion about their kid (you) riding without a helmet... Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yeah, you know even though I am an ardent advocate of safety gear, I also respect your right not to use the gear. Guys like me would offer you a choice by offering you a helmet... your choice would be to wear it or not. It is that simple. It doesn't make you a rapist or axe murderer... you make your choice, and you are willing to live with the consequences. I am not going to sit here and tell you that you are wrong, call you names or anything. I know I made a decent effort to help in case you just forgot it or couldn't afford one etc... my concience is clear after that.

I think people get so wrapped up in their own opinions that they forget that others have them too.. and they may differ from yours. It doesn't change anything. We both ride, enjoy our sport, and like to share with others. No harm no foul.

As for parents that refuse to LET their kids use a helmet.. .That may be considered child endangerment in some states. It all depends on where you live. I guess it depends on what the law is locally. Not every state would react... and then only when the kid gets hurt or worse. That is usually one of those after the fact 20-20 hind sight things.

Sounds like with your buddy it comes down to control... some people are so wrapped around being control freaks that they would put their child in danger just because they want to disagree with someone elses suggestion... They are are out there I swear.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

some people are so wrapped around being control freaks that they would put their child in danger just because they want to disagree with someone elses suggestion... </end quote></div>

I agree.

DB have you really had 8 surgeries on that knee? I am going to wait until Im limping everyday to get mine looked at now. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] If it was as simple as my carpal tunnel surgery was Id get it done tomorrow.