My dad doesn't mind. He says, "when its your time, its your time." He came down last October and rode a quad for the first time in his life (he's 65). Come to think of it, nobody even thought about a helmet. He rode around for about an hour and had fun. Mom doesn't want me on anything with an engine,,, even with all the protection in the world. She has so little faith in me, she doesn't want to even ride in a car with me driving! My mom's parents don't say anything, but they don't have a very high opinion of ATVs. They spent the last 20 yrs out yelling n screaming in the road at ATVers riding 90 mph or loaded down with kids, that they can't possibly have any respect for anyone with an ATV anymore. My grandma is a small woman, but the last person in this world you'd want to **** off. And she has a short fuse too. She'll be out in the road standing right in the path of an ATV waving a newspaper n givin those kids whatfor. She's even been known to pound on the hoods of police cars to get the officer to do something about those #$%^ kids! Makes for good conversation now days.

I think you have my buddy all wrong. I was talking hypothetically. He wants his kids to wear helmets... I was just saying "what if" he didn't? How should I think? What should I do? Etc. To what extent should I meddle in the affairs of others? That question opens a giant can of worms too... Like how to handle friends drinking n driving and fighting with their spouses, etc. Should I just let nature take its course, or am I supposed to play policeman? Maybe those are questions for a new thread.

I agree with you. Too many people are dogmatic... And much of the dogma steeped in ignorance. I have a tough time tolerating people like that, since I'm so,,, unconvetional. Worse still, they have an even tougher time tolerating me! I wish more of them were like you.

 

RANDY, I think you have enough sense to answer your own quesiton. I believe we all have a sense of right and wrong. Like I won't stand and let some guy beat the crap out of his girlfriend or wife. It isn't right. Same goes for a parent wailing on a poor defensless 4 year old. No reason to pound the crap with a fist out of a child. I think you will know when something needs to be said and done. Too often, all it takes is a couple words or a stare to make them stop. I had kids trying to break into a neighbor's house once. ALl it took was hey guys, you need something? and they were gone in a flash. Of course I am 6'4" 300 lbs too. But most people will stop when they know that someone is looking. Besides I haven't been able to beat the crap out of someone for so long, you kind of look for opportunities to teach someone some manners.... But that is another story...

MWQ, The original surgery was for an ACL reconstruction... which the surgeon talked me into using my own Hamstrings versus cadaver tissue. Wrong choice. I had a combination of alergic reaction to the metal screws used to attache things in place, and just poor technique. I spent the next 3 years with an semi open wound/deep bone infection. 6 following surgeries were to correct that and clean it out. The last one (8) was by a different surgeon who fixed everything, and we worked with an infectios desease doctor to get the infection under control. After 3 and a half years I finally had a good leg back. 6 months later, I crushed my ankle same leg. Basically broke the bottom 2 inches of the tibia off, and the fibula was so bad, they ran out of fingers counting the pieces. At one time they talked about amputation because it was so bad. It litterally exploded. SO, I went for a second opinion back to the guy that fixed the knee and begged him to save it. He did. 2 years later, I can walk without a cane, I have about 20 screws, and a couple steel plates holding the ankle together. But I can walk, and didn't lose too much range of motion. I get pain with every step, and it is a better weather prognosticator than the local weather man, but it sure beats looking at a stump when I get up in the morning. I still have issues with my MX boots on that leg. As the plastic tends to puch in right on top of the steel plates, and push the screws into areas that are close to the nerves.. but I am hoping that with time, this will subside too. I am still up and walking... that is all that matters. Can't kick start a dirt bike anymore... but that isn't all that important any more. Oh yeah, and the Emergency room techs when they set the leg (It almost killed me) put it back on slightly off line, so the foot turns out a little. Not really noticable, but I can tell. And the plates click on the ligaments when you move from side to side....Other than that, I have some gnarly scars that I can show to kids who think they are fearless and will never get hurt. I know better...
My advice on the knee... It depends on what has to be done. IF you can make it last, I'd do it. Use a good athletic brace. Not the ones that you get in the drugstore that are like asock. You need ones with hinges. They work wonders. Mine was custome form fitted to my leg. It made all the world of difference. But depending on your injury, you might be making it worse so the ortho guy is the one ot make the call. Remember, the older you are when you have it done, the harder and longer the recovery. I wan not prepared the first time around and it took me 14 weeks to get to where I could walk again with a cane. a little over 2 years after that... to make it without one. Luckily, other than number 1 and 8, the surgeries were minor and required little therapy. 1 was the worst, but the bone was healing there... 8 was a deep cut, but all muscle. No bones to mend. The ankles was without a doubt a "Special case"

 

6'4" 300 may have been big in the 70's, but now days that's just a bit above average. I don't know anyone less than 250 that's male.... or anyone less than 6ft. One good friend of mine fights to keep his weight below 400. And he is tiny compared to another guy that everybody just calls "Heavy". Any fights with these cats and there's bound to be some collateral damage, lol.

My philosophy is generally to live and let live. But one time I was at a friend's house and had just eaten dinner. I sprawled out on the couch and was watching tv when a fight broke out with him and his wife. None of my business I thought, so I just kept watching tv. Well, potatos were flying across the kitchen and it started sounding like walls were coming down. Then they got in each other's face and it looked like somebody was about to swing on the other, so I got up and got between them and firmly suggested they go their separate ways for a while and calm down. That must have sounded good, because that's what they did and I went back to lay down. Next thing I know they're outside yelling n screaming and I hear an engine revving up. I said screw it, not my business, he managed to run his life all this time without me so I'm not getting involved. Well, I guess she tried to run him over with the car and was chasing him around the yard. Another buddy just happened to be driving by and seen it from the road. That was a number of yrs ago and I guess these days they live together happily, more or less. Anyway, I don't know if I'm wrong or right, but that's about the way I handle things. I'm not going to let anyone get seriously injured, but if they want to scrap that's their business. A kid??? I'm not going to let anyone wail on a kid either! A thief??? If I catch someone trying to break in my house or garage, I'll chase him to the ends of the earth and one of us probably isn't coming back!

 

I don't agree with age limits on quads. I'm 15 been riding my whole life and the age limit quad they have me on is so small. Something for my 10 year old brother. I ride 450's just fine.

 

Well Francis, I can see you are looking at the issue from a very inexperienced child's view. You see the issue only as it affects you... you don't consider that the issue affects a lot more than just your little world. The fact that you can strap on a 450 has no relation to the ability of the average kid... The statistics are proof that a kid between 12 and 16 is the leading age category where kids are most likely going to get hurt or worse. In MOST cases, it involves SPEED, riding double up, or a bunch of other reasons why they say DON"T DO IT.

Some day when you grow up, you will see the issue from an adult's point of view... where the injury statisitics are just too high, that there are things that can be done to reduce the death rates like slowing them down, limiting the engine size etc... Which like it or not, DO WORK if they are obeyed. Unfortunately, they are not, and kids get hurt riding way over their head.

The second part of this relates not to the physical ablility to sit on, and work all the controls, but to control your urges and impulses that make you jump higher or further, or drag race some kid down the street on the road, or see who can pop the longest wheelie etc... Especially when the situation is dangerous.

Most kids can't see past the activity they are attempting to perform, when in fact their actions place themselves and persons around them at risk. Not to mention give the environmentalists and others who will use your accident as fuel to get rid of atv'S ALTOGETHER.

I know this sounds a bit harsh.. it isn't meant to be. Your attitude is typical for a kid your age... I just want you to know that all of us old guys have been there, and have felt the same way when we were your age, however we have learned over time that our thought processes change with age, and that we all have learned by our mistakes.

I for one must be the luckiest guy in the world. How I survived my hard headed brainless teen years I have no idea. I had the wrecked cars, and plenty of scars to show for it too. All we ask is that you look at it from a different perspective... and try to learn from other's wisdom so it isn't repeated in your personal life.

Because we all want you to grow old like the rest of us, and join us out on the trail for some fun and games as you grow older, and maybe pass some wisdom to your own kids some day. We can't share a good day's ride with a statistic...

Lastly, just in case you think that they (Elected officials) can't get rid of your ATV, all you have to do is look at the 3 wheeler debacle. I lived it. And they did get rid of them over night with a stroke of a pen. It can happen again if we let it, so listen to the wisdom being freely given.

I am not talking down to you here... this is plain talk... man to man

 

I agree with Dragginbutt that the younger you are, the more likely you are to take chances. When you get older, for some reason you're just not that concerned with showing off as much and testing yourself by taking big risks. But, I'm still not entirely convinced there should be age limits on atvs. I think its more the parent's responsibility than the government's.

I just wanted to add a little info to the 3 wheeler thing. I lived many yrs thinking 3 wheelers were illegal, but this was never the case. They were never illegal or banned. What happened was the major manufacturers (Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki) agreed not to sell 3 wheelers in the US for a period of 10 yrs. The agreement ended in 1998. During that 10 yrs, they could still sell them in other countries and other manufacturers (like Tiger for instance) could still sell them in the US. The reason the major manufacturers entered into this agreement was because of mounting lawsuits and because the quads were by far outselling the trikes. 3 wheelers were on their way out anyway because people would rather have 4 wheels than 3. Anyway, for the last 10 yrs if Honda wanted to sell a trike in the US they could have and its perfectly legal. But they didn't and they won't because there is no market for it. Its not a legal thing, its a consumer driven demand thing. As a result, I have no fear whatsoever that quads are in any danger of ever becoming illegal. It will never happen. Dirt bikes and snowmobiles are much more dangerous and they've been around forever it seems. Quads have been around long enough now that they're here to stay and there's nothing anyone can do about that. Now,,,, we may lose places to ride them publically because of environment issues, but they will never be banned for private use.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

MWQ, The original surgery was for an ACL reconstruction... which the surgeon talked me into using my own Hamstrings versus cadaver tissue. Wrong choice. I had a combination of alergic reaction to the metal screws used to attache things in place, and just poor technique. I spent the next 3 years with an semi open wound/deep bone infection. 6 following surgeries were to correct that and clean it out. The last one (8) was by a different surgeon who fixed everything, and we worked with an infectios desease doctor to get the infection under control. After 3 and a half years I finally had a good leg back. 6 months later, I crushed my ankle same leg. Basically broke the bottom 2 inches of the tibia off, and the fibula was so bad, they ran out of fingers counting the pieces. At one time they talked about amputation because it was so bad. It litterally exploded. SO, I went for a second opinion back to the guy that fixed the knee and begged him to save it. He did. 2 years later, I can walk without a cane, I have about 20 screws, and a couple steel plates holding the ankle together. But I can walk, and didn't lose too much range of motion. I get pain with every step, and it is a better weather prognosticator than the local weather man, but it sure beats looking at a stump when I get up in the morning. I still have issues with my MX boots on that leg. As the plastic tends to puch in right on top of the steel plates, and push the screws into areas that are close to the nerves.. but I am hoping that with time, this will subside too. I am still up and walking... that is all that matters. Can't kick start a dirt bike anymore... but that isn't all that important any more. Oh yeah, and the Emergency room techs when they set the leg (It almost killed me) put it back on slightly off line, so the foot turns out a little. Not really noticable, but I can tell. And the plates click on the ligaments when you move from side to side....Other than that, I have some gnarly scars that I can show to kids who think they are fearless and will never get hurt. I know better...

My advice on the knee... It depends on what has to be done. IF you can make it last, I'd do it. Use a good athletic brace. Not the ones that you get in the drugstore that are like asock. You need ones with hinges. They work wonders. Mine was custome form fitted to my leg. It made all the world of difference. But depending on your injury, you might be making it worse so the ortho guy is the one ot make the call. Remember, the older you are when you have it done, the harder and longer the recovery. I wan not prepared the first time around and it took me 14 weeks to get to where I could walk again with a cane. a little over 2 years after that... to make it without one. Luckily, other than number 1 and 8, the surgeries were minor and required little therapy. 1 was the worst, but the bone was healing there... 8 was a deep cut, but all muscle. No bones to mend. The ankles was without a doubt a "Special case"</end quote></div>

Wow, I never realized all that your leg has been through...How scary was it to hear the word Amputation? I might have cried.

My knee is doing just great these days. On a day to day basis I never even think about it. Even 60 miles of fast single track trail doesn't bother it anymore. I would assume its because it doesnt have to start a CR500. Only time it bothers me at all is after a 100 mile enduro at A rider speed. Of course at my age the rest of me isn't doing to well either. Body takes 2-3 days to recover, knee takes 1-2 weeks. I havn't done that in a couple years, but was thinking of entering a few enduro's this fall. Actually had the knee looked at by a knee specialist and though he didn't do a MRI....He said the knee is loose and worn but if it doesn't bother me to not sweat it until it gets worse. Im hoping for a decade or so. I use a set of knee brace/pad when I ride dirt bikes. They have the double hinge and strap to my calf and thigh. Sort of bulky walking, but don't even notice them when on the bike.

 

Glad to hear you are using the braces. They are not for everyone, but those of us that wear them and take time to properly size them, swear by them, not at them. They will help give you years in the saddle that you might lose otherwise. Loose joints can also be combatted by directed exercise.. but eventually it will catch up with everyone. Nobody is immune to it. Funny thing about the aging process I guess. Sure I abused my joints through my life, but I wouldn't trade the experiences for anything. One turn of the Throttle on that old Maico, or my Elsinore will put a lasting impression in your mind that nothing, and I mean nothing (sorry spouses) can match. It is an addictive experience. Your body may someday refuse to play your games, but you never walk past a dirt bike without hearing the call.... and thinking maybe you have one more go in you. The realist in you knows that it might take YEARS to recover. I am testament to that. All tolled, I am around 5 years now just getting to where I could walk without a cane.

Funny thing, now in our waning years the wife has decided that it is time for her to join me in my fun and get her own machine. I don't know who is happier. Me watching her, or her riding with the biggest smile in the world on her face. It has been God know how long since that sparkle was in her eyes. Years of raising children, working with them on homework and teaching them lifes lessons took their toll on her, both of us actually.... and to see her being as giddy as a kid again was worth it.

The tragedy of the situation is that a week after she got her first taste, Mrs DB had a serious heart attack. (3rd actually) But don't feel sorry for her, she is a tough old bird.. and is exercising her butt off to be able to get back on it by the end of April so she can attend her riding class with our youngest (12). She is not defeated by any means.

As far as age limits go... They are a necessary evil, although I do not agree with the bracketing. I, and many others like me believe the age versus engine size rule needs to be adjusted. I feel like the 12 to 16 bracket should be raised to 125, however the majority of people that have taken time to respond would put that up to a 250. I can live with that.

The reason this is important is that many states use the CPSC guidelines as the basis for their local programs. In many cases they will not allow you to ride in public areas if you do not comply with them... So it is important.

Just like consistant and competent training programs, and accurate reporting of ATV facts... The funny thing that bothers me about this last item is that in the case of injury numbers, more kids are hurt on bicycles than are hurt on ATVs, and I do not hear any group or persons trying to ban bikes, or limit their use in public areas etc... Food for thought maybe.

 

What I can't figure out is why everyone is so concerned with everybody else's kids. So what if my kids or anyone else's kids ride 90cc, 125, 250, or even 700cc quads??? Why would anyone else care? I don't get it.

More kids are going to die from obesity than anything else. And that comes from all the refined sugar products and then the problem is compounded by computers, video games, and TV. So, should I be concerned that everyone's kid is piled up on the couch stuffing his gullet with doritos and watching reality tv because the parents are too wrapped up in work and posting online about how my kids are riding atvs too big for them??? I propose each parent be fined for each pound their kid is overweight. And the kids should be randomly screened for MSG and whatever other chemicals are in junk food. If the test is positive for these chemicals, the parent should be fined and lose their driver's license. Sound good???? It protects the kids from the biggest killer of all... Right? Some people really need to get a life and quit concerning themselves with everyone else's life so much. I could see a cause for concern if parents were constantly throwing their kids off bridges and the like,,,, but riding a 250cc quad???? Ridiculous!

 

Well Randy, it comes down to being selfish I guess. You see, I for one want to make sure that our kids have a sport to enjoy later in life. Do not underedtimate the power of the lobby that is trying to get rid of ATV's altogether. They are attacking us from the environment perspective, they are attacking from the medical side and the injury stats etc. Numbers do not lie. and just because you exercise your rights to think one way, they are exercising theirs in their direction too. With the media being led by the nose on the issue, it is difficult to combat.

Now statistically speaking a child that is riding outside the CPSC guidelines is exponentially more at risk of injury. Sure it may be their choice, but like you said, as a parent, we have to BE the parent sometimes and make the choice FOR the kids. Stats wise now, they are more likely to live longer if they follow the guidelines. Not to mention the law aspect. You may not have issues there where you live, but many of us DO have laws to abide by as well... It is plain and simple, I can't on one had take a position that would force me to break the law to prove a point. What kind of message would that be sending to my children... as a parent. They learn by example.... I just try and give them good ones.

All this adds up to not wanting to give anyone ammunition that they can use to get rid of my hobby. That is where I get real selfish. If it means someone has to have their liberties brused a little.. well maybe it is better for the common good.... I guess n the end, it is all about perception... I think it best to find common ground where we all are ALIKE, instead of finding where we differ. Besides out on the trail all covered in mud, we are all one...