The thing we really disagree about is whether atvs can be banned. I say they can't be, you say they can and soon will. If we agreed on this, I think we'd agree on much more.

But its not just atvs. Some people have nothing better to do with their lives than to try to be "do-gooders". Its illegal to have the car seat on the passenger side of the car. Its illegal to smoke around kids. Its illegal to spank kids. 1000's of years we've been "not sparring the rod" and suddenly for the last decade or so its the wrong thing to do because a bunch of weenies decided they couldn't handle it. Where will it end? Obviously it never will end because each generation gets a little more sissy-fide than the last. And all it takes is one guy with an objection and everybody else has to do without. Like the 10 commandments in a court house. 1000's of people like them, but one puff don't want to look at them so suddenly everybody else doesn't have a say. We need to stop conceeding to these bitter, pessimistic, fanatics and collectively stand up for our right to run our own lives.

 

Numbers can and DO lie in alot of instances. Our own DNR gave ORV stats from many counties in and around Michigan somewhere around 2004-2005 to our ORV Advisory Board.. Come to find out later from another DNR friend of mine inside the DNR, that these stats come from making PHONE CALLS to various other LEO departments from around the State of Michigan. The stats given were nothing more than ESTIMATES as no real data was even present.

DNR painted a pretty gleem picture of ORV stats in Michigan, but NO ACTUAL numbers were ever available for certain issues discussed.

Numbers can be made to show whatever YOU want to them to show in many cases.

 

I disagree muddy... the numbers themselves do not lie, however people misuse them, and manipulate them to fit their situation.

 

Numbers can be shown to mislead the truth. For instance, the fed reports inflation numbers publically so people know how the economy is doing. Well, over the yrs the fed has changed the way it reports and collects data used for those inflation numbers. Like,,, they used to report a box of cereal at say,,, $1. Now they will report that same cereal inflation as by the oz. So, even though the box of cereal went up to $3,,, maybe 10oz of it costs only $1.50. Therefore, inflation didn't go up 300% according to the numbers (only 50% by the numbers), but to the consumer,,, he still pays 3 times more than he used to. That way the fed can say, "everything is fine, go on with your life. Good times! Good times!" But the fed has changed so many things, inflation numbers 10 yrs ago can't be compared to numbers reported today. We have no idea what the true inflation is. Any statistical set can be manipulated either by the one gathering and falsly reporting info or by someone who defines the rules on what to report.

Another good example is the rules defining obesity has changed too. Too many people were too fat, so they changed what defines fat and suddenly nobody is fat anymore. The charts look good,,, everybody is happy,,, all is well according to the numbers.

So, what Muddy has poiinted out is that the DNR may have an interest in tweaking the numbers by whatever means they have in order to show evidence to their own end (which I suppose is protecting the land by ridding it of atv riders somehow).

 

I know were you guys are coming from but in my opinion thats the parents job to raise them well.

 

Yup.. Those of us that had good parents that made good decisions will agree with you on that one. Only troble is, if you look at some of the accident reports where kids get killed, you will find some disturbing facts revealed. Kids under 10 riding banshees, Kids not wearing safety gear, kids riding tow or three up... the list goes on. Where were the parents there? Were they making the choices that ultimately cost their kid their life? If they did, or were present, then there are some that would suggest that they were endangering or neglecting their child and should be punished for their actions. That is pretty stiff.
Just remember Francis, that just because two consenting "Adults" are able to produce a child, it does not mean they wake up one day and know everything, or are capable of making the right decisions all the time. Life is a learning experience that you learn as you go.. usually by making mistakes, learning from them, and not repeating them.
The argument that I am 12 and can handle a 450 is not a good argument. the fact is, in many parts of the country, you may be breaking several laws and putting your parents at risk of losing everythign they have worked their entire life for. They could end up in jail, have to pay huge fines, lose their jobs, house etc. All because the 12 year old wanted a cheap thrill. THAT does not make sense either. We say let the parent decide, but what we really hope for is that OK, let them decide how to raise them, but we pray they are smart enough to make the good decisions that too much of a good thing could hurt their kid, and they have the courage to tell their child NO, even if they know the kid is going to act like a kid and whine.. Definately not an ADULT reaction is it?

This debate is meaningless. It has always been this way, and will always be this way. You disagree with me, that is OK. I think parents deep down want to make good decisions, and if presented with the proper information will on most occasions, make the right decision. Trouble is they don't always have that information available.

I DO NOT however think the decision is the kid's to make. Under any situation! The responsibility ALWAYS comes back to the parent or responsible adult present. Kids view of the world rarely goes beyond 2 ft from their face. They only see the world as it affects them. They do not see anything beyond that or how they affect the world. That is what growing up is all about. Looking beyond one's personal self and seeing what effect their actions have on the people and surroundings around them.

The choice is yours to make... hopefully you will see beyond your nose...and find ways to make your very existance make a difference.

 

All that makes good sense to me.

I knew this kid when I was growing up. He was always on dirt bikes and could ride a wheelie till he was outta sight. He'd get drunk and ride wheelies on street bikes in the ditch passing cars. Everybody thought he was cool, but crazy. He lived his whole life like that. He drove cars the same way. Every decision he ever made was based on that philosophy. His parents weren't that way.... His brother wasn't that way. He was dead by 21. Wrapped his car around a tree when passing another car and almost hitting on-coming traffic. Was no surprise to anyone. The point is, if a kid will hammer on a banshee at 10 and the parents don't care, the kid will probably be dead by 21 for some other reason,,,, if not the banshee. Just banning the kid from riding the banshee doesn't get to the root of the problem. Most 10 yr olds are scared of banshees. The ones that aren't have issues that make them a hazard to society and themselves. If the kid I knew didn't get killed by 21, I figure he would have taken out some innocent people though the yrs and keep law enforcement really busy (or just be a burden on tax payers sitting in prison). His parents could have done something different, but if you knew them, you really wouldn't blame them too much. His brother turned out ok, btw.

Some of those numbers reported in the stats are injuries of kids that are bound to be injured in one way or another. Take the quads away, they'll just start jumping out of trees or something else so they can impress their friends (or whatever reason they do risky things). The problem is the parents or something genetic in some of the cases.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Dragginbutt

Glad to hear you are using the braces. They are not for everyone, but those of us that wear them and take time to properly size them, swear by them, not at them. They will help give you years in the saddle that you might lose otherwise. Loose joints can also be combatted by directed exercise.. but eventually it will catch up with everyone. Nobody is immune to it. Funny thing about the aging process I guess. Sure I abused my joints through my life, but I wouldn't trade the experiences for anything. One turn of the Throttle on that old Maico, or my Elsinore will put a lasting impression in your mind that nothing, and I mean nothing (sorry spouses) can match. It is an addictive experience. Your body may someday refuse to play your games, but you never walk past a dirt bike without hearing the call.... and thinking maybe you have one more go in you. The realist in you knows that it might take YEARS to recover. I am testament to that. All tolled, I am around 5 years now just getting to where I could walk without a cane.

Funny thing, now in our waning years the wife has decided that it is time for her to join me in my fun and get her own machine. I don't know who is happier. Me watching her, or her riding with the biggest smile in the world on her face. It has been God know how long since that sparkle was in her eyes. Years of raising children, working with them on homework and teaching them lifes lessons took their toll on her, both of us actually.... and to see her being as giddy as a kid again was worth it.

The tragedy of the situation is that a week after she got her first taste, Mrs DB had a serious heart attack. (3rd actually) But don't feel sorry for her, she is a tough old bird.. and is exercising her butt off to be able to get back on it by the end of April so she can attend her riding class with our youngest (12). She is not defeated by any means.

As far as age limits go... They are a necessary evil, although I do not agree with the bracketing. I, and many others like me believe the age versus engine size rule needs to be adjusted. I feel like the 12 to 16 bracket should be raised to 125, however the majority of people that have taken time to respond would put that up to a 250. I can live with that. </end quote></div>

All the gear is restrictive and gets in the way [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]. Knee braces are just one more thing to get used to. I still even do all my riding with a fanny pack full of tools.(even on a mx track) Got used to it when I rode all the enduros and now feel out of balance with out it. Agree about the addictive experience, been hooked on it my self since I was 11.

I cant believe in all your years of riding Mrs. DB never had a machine of her own? Wow!! Mrs MWQ has been riding since before we got married....might have even been our 4th or 5th date. It must be really neat to see Mrs DB having that much fun after all these years.

She has to be a tough one to have put up with you all these years. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] Good to hear she is doing so well. Great to have something to motivate her recovery too. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Age limits are....well just plain Dumb(current ones), but necessary at some point. Make's me happy that I didnt have a quad in my garage until my youngest was 16.

 

Mrs DB has her own addictions. The first one is called Sewing. I have converted an entire room into the sewing-majhal. In it, you will find a folding cutting table, a corner sewing throne, large enough for three sewing machines, and two sergers. Now we are not talking just any machine either. She has those Real expensive embroidery machines, a Pfaff top of the line that we picked up from the factory in Germany mind you.. (Where she took the factory school) and two top of the line Sergers too from Huskvarna. Yup they make sewing machines now. She is an avowed fabric-a-haulic too and lives by the motto she who dies with the most cloth wins.. I could fill a shipping container with all the material she has. When I came back from Europe, her "stash" weighed in at around 1200 pounds and it has tripled since then. Her idea of fun is to go to all the sewing centers in a 50 mile radius looking for that special piece of cloth, or a sale on patterns. Sewing machines alone, she has nearly 20 grand invested in them... but I know better than to peep about it... I have my toys... so we are even. That 45K diesel pickup set me back a long ways so she has to catch up.... Plus, I am looking at a new 700 Raptor and a new Rhino too... Don't need them, but they look so nice all shiny and new in the show room. If you look on my page, you will see some of her work. Our grandson is dressed as Tigger for his first Holloween. He is 3 and a half now. About 6 months there.

I was a little worried when she said she wanted to buy her own and go riding with us "boys". We will see. I bought her all the fancy gear, got her new boots, her own PINK gear bag, jerseys, helmet.. the color matching gloves and goggles.. You name it... I am betting 50-50 odds that they get used one time.. then it is back to the sewing room.

Maybe she will find some inspiration I don't know... I am sure she just wants to keep tabs on us, and give me heck.. but that is why I married her 34 years ago. She did go with me when I was racing MX way back in the OLDEN days. And she used ot have a good time. Spent more time in the camper cooking, and scrubbing mud off the bikes, but she at least wanted to go the next week. Used to give me heck when I had to lay down and rest the kidneys. Remember those days when 7 inches of suspension was heaven? These kids with 14 inches of bounce have it made... I don't miss that one bit.

I get a twinge every time I walk past a dirt bike.. even looked really hard at one a month ago, but realistically, I don't have the legs for it any longer, and you can't sit on the seat and ride one of these any more. My tibia and Fibula just are not up to it. They hurt enough now just walking, I can't imagine what I'd be like after a session. Besides I don't have the lungs for it any more either. I'd be looking for the oxygen wagon.

YOu can also see my other vice on the page. It is a BUILT 03 RX7. Yes that would be a protoype single turbo setup. Aout 485 HP at rear wheels. Quick.

 

Hey DB,

After reading several of your recent post, I remember what my father used to say:

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"Forty tells Twenty, but Twenty doesn't believe him. Then, Twenty suddenly finds himself forty. Finally, Twenty understands what Forty was trying to tell him almost twenty years ago!"
My Dad</end quote></div>