To 440: I didn't want to quote your post.

I agree with you assesment on how to determine if someone is well paid or not. It absolutley depends on cost of living, average wages, location, etc...That is exactly why I gave supporting information when I quoted what my folks earn. They are in a small town in Kentucky and average far more than other similar positions. What has not been considered is that many if not most small business are closely held. That means, you must also considere the income of these owners of which there are 10s of millions. I wouldn't give up my current income in favor of GM's benefits. I have complete control over which benefits I care to purchase with my money.

The other thing to consider, is when we import that $5.00 widget from China, a HUGE majority of the money stays in the US and it works to keep inflation down for the average worker. I have to sell a lot of imported items because they aren't manufactured in the US. If an item that I pay $1.00 for imported was made in America, it would cost $5-7.00 meaning I would have to charge considerably more which means the average worker gets a pay cut by buying items that would otherwise be less, thus inflation. In this case, it was been proven time and time again that inflation would out pace earnings.

As the article that I posted in the previous thread states, it is more important to build our export business rather than worry about imports. This is what I have been saying all along. With our innovation and technology, we will prosper 10 fold by going after foriegn markets rather than being protectionists and isolationists.

 

05PRED500

It's actually Crown Point Indiana. Clown Point is a name given to the city by the press after Dillinger excaped from our jail using a gun carved from a bar of soap. Let's just say things have not changed much since then.

Why are my wages and benifits dropping while the houses I trim get bigger and more expensive?

Good Question. Imported products or imported labor it all has the same effect on the average American worker.

 

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Pretty Funny...Infamous I'd say.

My only guess, and that's all it is, would be competition and fewer homes. Are you the business owner?

It's crazy here trying to get enough subs. Our housing is getting more and more costly while the value of older homes has skyrocketed.

 

Speeking of Crown Point and Dillinger, from what i hear from my grandmother, my grandfather was part of the team that chased him when he was in this area.

MCAVS,
Where do you normally ride? I'm not far from crown point theres a really nice place near me to ride.

 

This is where things get interesting, and basically for me its from the fact that I do agree with some of your thoughts, and then were totally on opposite ends of the spectrum on others. I will give as much as to say that I think a good amount of various members thinking here is directly effected by their location, work experience, and even life experience.

An example is how I think your 100% on increasing our exports and the amount of emerging markets is staggering, but thats only half a story since due to money valuations most people who live in those markets can not afford our products, and the majority of those buying them are either goverments or large corps that are directly tied to them. Sure there are exceptions to this, but I doubt GM or even Dell is selling many finished products to the people of rural china.

I also understand your views on being a small business owner, and can appreciate all that goes with that position since I have been there twice. One thing that may greatly effect any difference of opinion we may have on this is that from what I understand you dont have as much of a problem in your area as we do in having the state as a junior partner in the business. Many years ago there was a very large amount of manufacturing of most every kind in the NJ/NY metro area, and though its mostly all moved on my point is that I could not even begin to think how anyone would even consider a new mfg venture in this area today. Between the large labor costs (driven by the general living expense of the area) and the uncountable different taxes of most every kind, insane building or lease costs, plus lets not forget the normal expenses all business see across the country and its a really tough if even possible process.

So having the control and being in charge of your own destiny is really a great thing (its really part of the american way isnt it) but when your running your own small business the one thing I find all of us have totally forgotten is the amount of time we really put in. I am not talking about a long established Co with 30 mil annual sales but the typical small business with 2-5 employees and a working owner. While we may look to the union worker and think about all the differences we may have and how we think or feel about them etc we seem to always forget what is taken home at night and how "well off" we really are after the various agencies get their hands into our pockets for their cut.

I have no regrets and most likely will do it all over again some time in the future (well unless I can ****** one of those great state jobs that make all those scandal papers etc lol) but that would be a choice and its one that the majority of working americans will not make. Between the required abilities, and needed capitial outlay most will not even bother with a venture into becoming a business owner, but that does not mean they dont posess the skills to be profitable part of any business, and there needs to be a place for them as well at a profitable enough business to be able to properly compensate them.

OK so its a viscious cycle and you may be right that our way out of it is thru increased exporting, but there still needs to be a return to some of the basic pricipals of the past, and our purchasing $1 pieces of junk from China in order to save $3 over the costs of a quality domestic product only to export it back to china in a finished product doesnt seem to working too well for the quality of life of those living in America.

Also I know this was in another post, but has anyone else noticed how many income stats are now based on family, and not on a single worker or supporter?

I hopfully am not alone when I take these numbers and slice them in half since more families have two working parents, and if you really think about it there is a very good chance that in reality (very different than the statistics world) we are not making any more than we did 10 years ago but the cost of living has gone up considerably.

And lastly I think I addressed the idea (in reverse) of how purchasing more expensive products made domesticly would effect the buying power of the typical american. This not only effects the bottom line of a business by increasing production costs and all the effects down the line to its ability to pay its employees, but also effects the buying power of the employee as well.

My previous point was that as we are forced to compete with cheap imports both domestic and thru our exports we are actually reducing our profitability as a small business, and then that also flows down to the employee as well. Sure purchasing these same low cost items can help to boost the bottom line on a temp basis, but over time the loss of local business that made the more expensive items has proven to cause an even greater loss.

The things that may show or prove to be lucrative to a small business short term like purchasing the cheaper chinese imports may really be sealing their fate long term. This is debated by people with more experience than I think we may have collectively and it seems the answer may only be found in the future and what it holds for us all, but with the shear amount of remaining manufacturing in the US I dont see the potential for ever truely replacing our manufacturing base with the increases in exports that would really be needed.

Actually it was interesting to see the posts on contracting (trim work) since the craftsman type trades seem to be one of the few with good potential. I guess the importing of workers, and general "mickey mouse" ways of many of the contractors and builders combined with the overwhelmingly unbelievable greed of the developers has managed to screw that up too.

 

According to the National Center for Education:

High school to College

Between 1972 and 2003, the rate at which high school completers enrolled in college in the fall immediately after high school increased from 49 to 64 percent, but it has remained at about 64 percent since 1998.

If you consider that high school graduates often enter college a few yesr after high school graduation, the percentage goes up. I have read many different pecentages from various states that support this. Other states are lower.
BryceGTX

 

Apparently Michigan really is srtuggling.

Facts:

Unemployment at 5.1% is less than the average in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
Job growth 3.5+ million new jobs since the peak loss after the recession.
Mean income is up and growing at a rate of 3.9%
US productivity is at record highs (important because it relates to quality of life)

Now why in our discussion of why buy American do you provide us with these statistics? They do not support your argument that buying from off-shore is good for our economy. These numbers are not attributed to buying off-shore products. What recession does it refer to? Also, what is "NET" job growth? We only have 10 million people in Michigan and only 3 million are employable. Since Michigan employment figures have been in single digits for years, it must mean we have all taken two jobs eh? LOL, I think we can come up with some numbers for every state of the union that is similarly rosy. Funny what you can do with numbers.. What a poor statement for discussion!! And what dictionary did you read that defines "Quality" of living has anything to do with productivity. Seems to be another baseless argument to deflect the discussion from "Why buy American"

It amazes me that people think something so simple as "buy American" can fix everything. It goes to show peoples inability to look past their very limited experience to the broader picture, long term benefits, and huge markets that await us.

It amazes me to think that someone can argue that NOT buying American is good for the US economy. It is clear that when we have a choice to buy American or off-shore, it is better to buy American. LOL, just because huge off-shore markets await us, does not mean it is better to buy off shore. Quite the contrary, it is better to sell off shore. I am amazed that you keep bringing up this baseless argument.

As to small business taking on more burden...I didn't say that. I said that small business IS the backbone of America. We employ far more people than "big business". These are facts that can't be argued. But, then, you said you weren't going to argue with me anyway.

There is no argument about small business being important. LOL, it is the small businesses that are being affected by off-shore production shifts because these businesses are the first and second tier suppliers of the auto companies. These have traditionally been good jobs with good benefits in addition to the auto companies. I guess if you knew something about small businesses, you would know this.

So, yes, I am hard headed I guess. But, it takes hard headed people to argue with me.

It isn't the hard headed that is your problem, it is the useless arguments that you present to support your stand that buying off shore is good for the US economy. LOL, it seems that most anyone understands that it is better to buy American.

 

The other thing to consider, is when we import that $5.00 widget from China, a HUGE majority of the money stays in the US and it works to keep inflation down for the average worker. I have to sell a lot of imported items because they aren't manufactured in the US. If an item that I pay $1.00 for imported was made in America, it would cost $5-7.00 meaning I would have to charge considerably more which means the average worker gets a pay cut by buying items that would otherwise be less, thus inflation. In this case, it was been proven time and time again that inflation would out pace earnings.

It is true that a large amount of this money stays in the US. However, this is not the core of our discussion. This represents an argument for cheap widgets that does not apply to expensive autos. Certain products such as your cheap widget, we have conceded to cheap production in China. And when the Chinese production costs equal the production costs in the US, it may then be cost effective to produce in the US again. We currently produce autos in the US. We have considerable competition with Japan in particular for domestic market share. Japan, on the other hand, does not allow us to sell to their market because of protectionists policy. It is one thing for the consumer to decide what product is the best and let free markets set the price. However, that does not happen in Japan. This amounts to a subsidy for Japanese auto makers in their local markets. Then they come to the US and we give them money to build their plants!! This does not make sense and it is not the right way to do business.

As the article that I posted in the previous thread states, it is more important to build our export business rather than worry about imports. This is what I have been saying all along. With our innovation and technology, we will prosper 10 fold by going after foriegn markets rather than being protectionists and isolationists.

We both agree that exports are important and virtually every company that is anyone knows this and is growing it. The difference is that you suggest that we ignore our imports. We cannot ignore our imports when it concerns the automotive industry. Once again, when competition is equal and free across borders, then we can be less concerned about our automotive industry. And I will say again, this is not isolationist policy, it is plain old common sense. LMAO, I would hardly call the US isolationists when we pay Toyota to build plants in Kentucky.

 

Step off if you can't pay attention. Those comments were in the context of the discussion. You try to create blatant distractions, such as claiming that I am not who I am. This tells me that you are out of real ideas and can't argue facts.

I NEVER said it was better to buy imports than buy American. What I have said is that it simply will not have the impact that you so blindly think it will. My "useless arguments" are born of actual fact and statistics. Buying American is fine, scratch that, more than fine. However, stop trying to make people feel guilty if they would rather own a Toyota Camry over a Chevy Malibu. The why buy American question should be posed to every other large market. As the article I posted states, we can make a much bigger impact on American jobs be getting our exports up. That seems to me no more difficult then getting everyone to only buy American.

My arguments are only useless to you since you don't have the vission to look past today. Your answer, in a nut shell, is that we should buy American in order to save American jobs. That in it's self is fine. But, my answer statistically improves our American job situation including manufacturing.

I will guarantee, GM will not contiunue to lose this kind of money. They will either become more innovative, quicker to market, and more competitive are they will continue to lose jobs in which case, that great benefits package will be gone, gone, gone!! Also, if YOU knew something about small businesses, most are closely held and that company pays several people very well. Infact, many pay far better than GM and offer better benefits.

Your statement about 1st and 2nd tier suppliers is incorrect. Again, I will use the plant in Georgetown, KY. 75+ percent of the content comes from US and more specifically, local suppliers that Toyota helped to be efficient and profitable. Additionally, 98% of the steel used at that plant comes from American suppliers. This is better than MANY so called "American Companies" So, the US, workers, suppliers, and customers benefit greatly. Yes, Toyota makes a profit, but far less than what is generated and kept in the US. Plus Toyota reinvests in the US.

350 US Suppliers
69 in Kentucky alone

We need international investment in our country. In addition to growth, it creates ties to those other nations.

Another spot on argument provided by: Eric Norris

 

As I have said before, our government needs to step up and help creat a fair playing field, particularly with China. But, the US companies must build cars that others in other nations desire. From there, they could spend a little less lobbying our government and lobby foriegn countries. Keep in mind, the are some tech products that other countries beg for.

Local and state governments will incent ANY manufacturer that wants to move into their area, not just imports. I didn't say we have protectionist policies now. I said that you and some on this board would prefer protectionist policies.

Who in the world said we should ignore imports? You can't!! They sell more of specific models that compete with US brands very well and sell them for more money. On the contrary, it does to show that you cant rest on your accomplishment and build ugly cars with under powered engines expecting them to out-sell import competitors.