Why buy American
#381
11-13-2005, 03:57 AM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: 440EX026
Dont worry your not the only one without the time to read every bit of this, but still its an excelent thread and I only wish I had the time to keep up with it as there are many important topics here that are not 100% explained (at least to those of us who are speed reading it lol).
Bryce, thanks for standing your ground and explaining your points etc. I dont agree 100% on everything, but I believe you have a very good grasp on the "big picture" and find myself agreeing with most of your posts.
Pred, Prop etc though I disagree with much of your defense and posts on quality comparisons, the benefits of buying domestic, and some other smaller issues there is merit to the points of free trade (its not really free though) and exercizing our right to purchase whatever we want etc.
Everyone, thanks for a great thread, and there is actually a good amount of info here and lots to be digested and learned.
What I cant believe is how often I have discussed this thread outside in the real world, and how many people really understand and see how the tremendous loss of manufacturing and ever increasing trade deficit have truely effected our quality of life.
I do have to argue a couple points though as I totally disagree with some of the stat's and logic behind them.
First please dont throw flawed and "air brushed" stats around about how great were doing, or how the middle class is striving etc. (sorry if I picked the wrong wording lol) unless you first compare all the variables related to this that are not accounted for. I have said it before but you can pretty much cut all the income or "status" numbers in half since there is now 2 working parents in the majority of households earning those numbers, and the employment numbers are useless because the only include newly unemployed workers (not those still out beyond benefits) and dont account for the large amount of workers settling for much lower salaries just to be employed.
I still am standing my ground on the cause of all of this being from the loss of mfg jobs, and some other unrelated political pressures. Maybe because my state of residence seems to be leading the way down the crapper I have a different and maybe more negative opinion on this, but even with increases in retail, govt, and various service industries things are anything but improving.
Maybe I break this down too much or look at it in a more simple fashion, but if there isnt replacement of the manufacturing thats been lost is there a need for the service jobs? Without the MFG and service companies and the employment they offer who is going to supply the tax dollars needed to fund the govt jobs?
Without the solid foundation of manufacturing supporting the various other levels of the building it has little choice than to crumble to the ground. It appears that this is actually what is happening, and its more obvious everyday. Even the larger state and fed employers are starting to show how tight things are becoming thru the obvious anti labor efforts and actions taken in the recent past and present. Loss of benefits, no contracts, out sourcing (to non union political contributors) and various other methods being used to cut costs and reduce the strength of the unions and their ability to properly protect and represent their members etc only reinforce how bad its getting.
Formerly bottomless pits full of taxpayer dollars offering some of the best blue collar jobs in the state are now drying up, but its at a time when the state is the largest employer, and is now forced to have to borrow billions of dollars just to keep the clycle working and not cause increases in unemployment and additional losses in tax dollars.
You can purchase whatever you like, and do choose what makes the most sense to you etc, but dont fool yourself by being in denial that the losses in domestic manufacturing have not effected your income or quality of life.
Lastly please dont assume that anyone (yourself included) is doing any better by being able to purchase more products due to their being made by someone who is being paid less then you need to purchase a cup of coffee because its unfair to rate ones life by the amount of useless immediately obsolute electronic garbage they have accumalated.
Sorry if I touched on subjects a second time, but its apparent some missed them or just brushed them off previously.
Originally posted by: mfvii
Bryce-
I read as much of the thread as I could, I must have missed that.
And maybe I missed a discussion about other industires that effect the deficit, like electronics, agriculture, banking, and on and on. Autos are a large part, but the deficit is reflective of more than just who buys what. It is also reflective of the flow of money, both in investing and real property. that streams out of a countries and into anothers.
misunderstood trade deficit
online course on trade imbalances
Bryce-
Hey mfvii. I can't argue with the document because that is what we have been talking about in this thread.
And maybe I missed a discussion about other industires that effect the deficit, like electronics, agriculture, banking, and on and on. Autos are a large part, but the deficit is reflective of more than just who buys what. It is also reflective of the flow of money, both in investing and real property. that streams out of a countries and into anothers.
misunderstood trade deficit
online course on trade imbalances
Bryce, thanks for standing your ground and explaining your points etc. I dont agree 100% on everything, but I believe you have a very good grasp on the "big picture" and find myself agreeing with most of your posts.
Pred, Prop etc though I disagree with much of your defense and posts on quality comparisons, the benefits of buying domestic, and some other smaller issues there is merit to the points of free trade (its not really free though) and exercizing our right to purchase whatever we want etc.
Everyone, thanks for a great thread, and there is actually a good amount of info here and lots to be digested and learned.
What I cant believe is how often I have discussed this thread outside in the real world, and how many people really understand and see how the tremendous loss of manufacturing and ever increasing trade deficit have truely effected our quality of life.
I do have to argue a couple points though as I totally disagree with some of the stat's and logic behind them.
First please dont throw flawed and "air brushed" stats around about how great were doing, or how the middle class is striving etc. (sorry if I picked the wrong wording lol) unless you first compare all the variables related to this that are not accounted for. I have said it before but you can pretty much cut all the income or "status" numbers in half since there is now 2 working parents in the majority of households earning those numbers, and the employment numbers are useless because the only include newly unemployed workers (not those still out beyond benefits) and dont account for the large amount of workers settling for much lower salaries just to be employed.
I still am standing my ground on the cause of all of this being from the loss of mfg jobs, and some other unrelated political pressures. Maybe because my state of residence seems to be leading the way down the crapper I have a different and maybe more negative opinion on this, but even with increases in retail, govt, and various service industries things are anything but improving.
Maybe I break this down too much or look at it in a more simple fashion, but if there isnt replacement of the manufacturing thats been lost is there a need for the service jobs? Without the MFG and service companies and the employment they offer who is going to supply the tax dollars needed to fund the govt jobs?
Without the solid foundation of manufacturing supporting the various other levels of the building it has little choice than to crumble to the ground. It appears that this is actually what is happening, and its more obvious everyday. Even the larger state and fed employers are starting to show how tight things are becoming thru the obvious anti labor efforts and actions taken in the recent past and present. Loss of benefits, no contracts, out sourcing (to non union political contributors) and various other methods being used to cut costs and reduce the strength of the unions and their ability to properly protect and represent their members etc only reinforce how bad its getting.
Formerly bottomless pits full of taxpayer dollars offering some of the best blue collar jobs in the state are now drying up, but its at a time when the state is the largest employer, and is now forced to have to borrow billions of dollars just to keep the clycle working and not cause increases in unemployment and additional losses in tax dollars.
You can purchase whatever you like, and do choose what makes the most sense to you etc, but dont fool yourself by being in denial that the losses in domestic manufacturing have not effected your income or quality of life.
Lastly please dont assume that anyone (yourself included) is doing any better by being able to purchase more products due to their being made by someone who is being paid less then you need to purchase a cup of coffee because its unfair to rate ones life by the amount of useless immediately obsolute electronic garbage they have accumalated.
Sorry if I touched on subjects a second time, but its apparent some missed them or just brushed them off previously.
I know I touched slightly on the situation of "union busting" even in the govt sector, and since then I have seen first hand around 30 highly trained techs lose their positions (not their jobs since they were moved around to fill vacancies due to retirement etc) at a govt agency. Now I know some will smerk at hearing this since these were not normal mechanic positions and did not see the same effects from the economy that jobs do and have in the private sector. The alarming part of this is that not only is the whole function of this group getting outsourced, but the union is losing another 30 members.
That may not sound like a large issue at first look, but consider how many paying members have been lost, the fact that the outsourced replacment jobs with the company now doing the work will not supply nearly the same level of income or benefits, and more than likely in the end it will actually cost this agency and all those who support it thru paying for services and the tax dollars more than it had originally.
So in just one small instance in a position that used to be solid and safe (like so many were even in private industry) everything is gone. The power and income to the union and its remaining members. The future for so many that would have worked in these positions for generations to come. And mostly another slice of the american dream is destroyed.
Now I know many may think just like I had in the past how this example is just one small group and its govt anyhow so who really cares or is sympathetic. I mean these are the jobs famous for having limited stress due to not actually having to make a profit, typically have excelent benefits and pensions etc., reduced production in comparison to private concerns, and just dont operate like normal similar positions in private industry.
Well thats the point, and how its gotten so screwed up now that even those jobs that were once thought of as being safe or "for life" are being taken away. Yes even after all the non govt industries have seen so many workers have to either deal with reduced wages, or benefits etc (as well as the reduced quality of life) due to so many lost manufacturing jobs in the US to cheap imports etc. Now add the pressures put on the remaining companies and positions for the same reasons and see its now trickled down to the govt level due to the changes in avail $$$ for stealing from us in taxes (we make less they have less to take) and the fact that the govt is now responsible for directly and indirectly employing more americans than ever before in order for the unemployment percentages to remain at a level that does not cause concern or worse hysteria.
I dont know the exact numbers (actually the way most states work your not supposed to lol) for my own state, and just dont have enough info on any others to allow a fair estimate (you will have to rely on your own observations and research for your area) but I can only imagine the total disaster we would face nationwide if the various states, counties, and towns etc did not employ so many people.
Its not the way things are supposed to work, and its apearing more socialist than democratic all the time, but unless we as a nation stop lining the pockets of the 5% of americans who are the wealthiest with all the uninmaginable additional profits derived from such inexpensive imports and the lowering of living standards, income and retirement of most all other americans etc etc etc its only going to get worse and not better.
The Fed can mess around with interest rates, and make all the insane foreign loans and grants it wants, but unless we see an increase in our gross domestic product numbers and a decrease in imports (an increase in exports would help also) and the increase in good paying american jobs that is so needed (should I be so bold as to say that I would need to earn nearly 100K annual with a good pacakage to come close to living as well as my grandfather did at .25 an hour lol) all the nonsense and fluff isnt going to add up to a damn.
Sorry guys but you just cant compete with slave labor from a foreign communist country, and trying to has shown some sorry results.
And lastly hats off to those who have increased their wealth 100-1000 fold by allowing us the privildge to purchase inferior products for 1/2 -1/3 the cost of the similar american made ones, and I wont tell anyone that they cost less than 5% of the typical cost to mfg in the US.
#382
11-13-2005, 10:45 AM
#383
11-14-2005, 11:35 AM
Why buy American
QUOTE from BryceGTX: Canada exports 72 billion and imports 51 from US for a total trade of 123 billion and a deficit of 22 billion
Wrong. Check out this article http://www.canada.com/businesscentre...4-2f86e4bec1dd
In September alone America's trade imbalance with Canada set a record, rising to $7.4 billion
That's just one month.
Wrong. Check out this article http://www.canada.com/businesscentre...4-2f86e4bec1dd
In September alone America's trade imbalance with Canada set a record, rising to $7.4 billion
That's just one month.
#384
11-14-2005, 01:04 PM
#385
11-14-2005, 01:34 PM
#387
11-14-2005, 03:50 PM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: BryceGTX
Actually DeeDawg.. Those figures are quarterly figures not yearly or monthly.. so they are quite correct. LOL.. but they may have increased since I quoted them.
Bryce
Actually DeeDawg.. Those figures are quarterly figures not yearly or monthly.. so they are quite correct. LOL.. but they may have increased since I quoted them.
Bryce
I understand there is concerns for our friends at our north and south borders, and also that there is a group of non related issues within our southern states from the illegal immigrants etc, but I dont think either of these countries even together will ever pose as large a threat as the potential china and asia in general do.
You have to consider that the US economy could have easily taken mexico on its apron strings and caused the whole deal down there to improve to a much better situation, and without all the other pressures on the US economy from the Asian imports we wouldnt have hardly noticed it.
Now when you compare that to trying to bring a country like China with billions of people living in "third world nation" conditions to become a first world nation overall you see where our real problems are.
So think what you want (but please research your info etc) but know damn well that people here are seeing a decline while people in other places are seeing growth and wealth they never believed. You dont have to be rocket scientist to figure that one out.
(this wasnt directed directly to anyone, and I just quoted the other post for reference etc)
#388
11-14-2005, 08:04 PM
Why buy American
QUOTE from BryceGTX: Those figures are quarterly figures not yearly or monthly
Either way, you should have explaned it that way. As we all are aware of, there are plenty of bogas claims in these forms, and your point needs to be clearly stated. In another thread one of our neighbors to the north complained of trade problems, but didn't have much to say after I pointed out the imbalance.
440EX026: I gotta agree with you, China is by far our greatest threat. Anyone that doesn’t see it has their heads in the sand.
Either way, you should have explaned it that way. As we all are aware of, there are plenty of bogas claims in these forms, and your point needs to be clearly stated. In another thread one of our neighbors to the north complained of trade problems, but didn't have much to say after I pointed out the imbalance.
440EX026: I gotta agree with you, China is by far our greatest threat. Anyone that doesn’t see it has their heads in the sand.
#389
11-14-2005, 10:18 PM
Why buy American
For those that are interested in checking my facts, you can go to US Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis. To get the specific data on trade numbers, look at this Table to get the specific figures that I used.
You can use data for any period of time you wish down to the quarters. This allows to to determine how good or bad things really are based on a quarterly, yearly or multi-year basis.
For the content values, I used the percentages given earlier in the thread. This are relatively simple calculations that anyone can do that should give you quite accurate results.
BryceGTX
BTW For those of you that actually checked my numbers against the table and noticed a slight discrepancy.. It is because I used values from the Quarterly Seasonally Adjusted Table.
You can use data for any period of time you wish down to the quarters. This allows to to determine how good or bad things really are based on a quarterly, yearly or multi-year basis.
For the content values, I used the percentages given earlier in the thread. This are relatively simple calculations that anyone can do that should give you quite accurate results.
BryceGTX
BTW For those of you that actually checked my numbers against the table and noticed a slight discrepancy.. It is because I used values from the Quarterly Seasonally Adjusted Table.
Bryce
#390
11-15-2005, 12:03 AM
Why buy American
Originally posted by: BryceGTX
The above post was page 19.
Bryce
For those that are interested in checking my facts, you can go to US Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis. To get the specific data on trade numbers, look at this Table to get the specific figures that I used.
You can use data for any period of time you wish down to the quarters. This allows to to determine how good or bad things really are based on a quarterly, yearly or multi-year basis.
For the content values, I used the percentages given earlier in the thread. This are relatively simple calculations that anyone can do that should give you quite accurate results.
BryceGTX
BTW For those of you that actually checked my numbers against the table and noticed a slight discrepancy.. It is because I used values from the Quarterly Seasonally Adjusted Table.
You can use data for any period of time you wish down to the quarters. This allows to to determine how good or bad things really are based on a quarterly, yearly or multi-year basis.
For the content values, I used the percentages given earlier in the thread. This are relatively simple calculations that anyone can do that should give you quite accurate results.
BryceGTX
BTW For those of you that actually checked my numbers against the table and noticed a slight discrepancy.. It is because I used values from the Quarterly Seasonally Adjusted Table.
Bryce
I have to admit that most of your posts seem accurate (I didnt check everything posted in this thread trust me lol) and I do check on some things especially if they seem off or inflated etc. Also most of what you have posted here seems to make sense to me, and I have even decided not to post a few times due to the great job you did stating the facts and backing them up.
Now I am also thinking I have my page limits set up different since I show only four very very long pages
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