Lyle (teamsparks). When you are impounded at a race for tech, do you get to say wait till next year? NO! I am sure that by next year you will have a faster Raptor to "sub in" while you try to hide the fact that you cheated with fuel. We want to see what you have NOW. A simple dyno run will eliminate the issue about what you did with a sheep!

 

Why would any engine builder want to have a shoot out on a dyno? there are so many variables even on the same dyno on the same day, diffrent air pressure in the tires or simply tying down the quads at a diffrent point or just tightning down one more than the other can show a diffrence. None of these has to be intentional but the operator can fiddle with it too. I am not saying any one would do this it's just an example.

With all the variables if they did a dyno shootout & one showed 1 HP over the other who do you think all the "sheep" would be calling the next day for motor work? It's not worth it to someone who has put in hundreds if not thousands of hours in R&D & then have people say hey X Makes 1 more HP than Y.

Aparently all the engine builders that have been mentioned in this thread do exelent work that give great HP gains & have many happy customers or we wouldn't have to wait 6 months to a year to get our work done.

Why don't some of you that cried foul on the unwillingness of some to do a dyno shoot out invest tens of thousands of dollars & many months of time in to something & invite your compeditors to have a look at it. Didn't Apple do that with Microsoft? We all know how that turned out.

I think that any one that buys a kit from one of these builders will be happy, But rember there is always someone out there with more money & will be faster than you.

As for the "cheater" fuel this was a run what you brung outlaw type event. If Sparks gained an unfair advantage over the others & stayed within the rules, GOOD FOR THEM!! How do you think the top F1, NASCAR & Cart teams win? It's by thinking outside the box, reading the rules & asking if I do this will it be legal & give me an advantage, not by saying here are the rules build a car by them. Thats how Roger Penske won Indy with a pushrod engine, he blew every one away & no matter how much they whined it was completely legal, Until they rewrote the rules the next year.

So until the next 4 stroke wars Sparks has the baddest Raptor in the land! I have no problem with them blowing their own horn because their hard work paid off. As for everyone else you can bet they have been doing their homework & there will be even bigger & badder Raptors roaming the dunes this year.

You all should just quit your whining & be glad we have engine builders that are working on ways to make our quads faster, because I can promise you, If you spend gobs of money & have the absoulute fastest Raptor alive, some one else is going to order one the next day that's going to be faster.

 

Moose,

Reading your post, you clearly missed the point of the requested dyno challenge. This was started when Lyle (TeamSparks) stated that all the other engine builders prepared less than his "average" engine build. The thought was that since he claimed to many people that his engine had low compression, stock valves and other "mild or average" build features, it could no way produce a high enough power output to explain the distance from KingRaptor on the hill. That said, the issue of fuel came to light.

Your comment that it was a "run what you brung" race is very accurate. BUT is it not "good for them" if they stayed in those rules. WHY??? BECAUSE LYLE maintained that he DID NOT use any fuel additives!! We would not have a problem if he just came out and said yes, I ran 80% alcohol with a touch dioxane or prop oxide or???. When the fuel issue is denied and the person claims that the machine was near stock, everyone has the right to voice their questions about how he could have won.

This raises another point. When you mention the thousands of hours and dollars involved in researching and building a performance machine, is it fair to have a competitor take the advantage by simply using fuel and then denying the issue?

Trinity was not asking to "tear down" the motor. They just wanted to have Lyle back up his claim and show the power on the dyno. If the engine was really just average and made the kind of power needed to perform as it did, I would be the first one over to a major competitor's shop to take advantage of the dyno offer. We are not talking 1hp difference. For that machine to make 15 bikes on another similiar machine, we would see a substantial hp difference.

As for altering the dyno runs, I think everyone can agree, Harry McDermott would be absolutely fair and Lyle would be there to participate.

 

this has been one of the all time best posts on this forum, despite the description "pissing contest" there has been lots of good info here and just plain fun reading, as for business I have good business dealings with sparks, mickey, and harry has just been awsome with the help, its all in fun guys and competition is part of the game --just get me my ritalin and get me on the track ;-)

 

sense alljuice cought my post from 2 days ago (I deleted it) I will re-post it...

Though this topic has gone in 20 different directions, there is 1 thing that sticks in my mind...the Sparks guy "claiming" PUMP gas was used and Sparks engine mods and tuning beat out the other bikes at the 4 stroke wars...by 15 bike lengths!!!

My instinct tells me BS!

If he said "yes, we used special fuel" everything would be cool and this topic would not be 100+ posts and counting. It would be a dozen posts on the rules for next year or the chemistry of fuel. False advertising pisses people off.

What is more reliable with a woman? Your instinct or your d... ?? That's what I thought!

This topic reminds me of a little joke.....

A old-timer was in a bar in Scotland, talking to a young man.

Old Man:

"Lad, look out there to the field. Do ya see that fence? Look how well it's built. I built that fence stone by stone with me own two hands, piled it for months. But do they call me McGregor-the-Fence-Builder?

Nooooo.."

Then the old man gestured at the bar.

"Look here at the bar. Do ya see how smooth and just it is? I planed that surface down by me own achin' back. I carved that wood with me own hard labor, for eight days. But do they call me McGregor-the-Bar-builder?

Nooooo..."

Then the old man points out the window.

"Eh, Laddy, look out to sea. Do ya see that pier that stretches out as far as the eye can see? I built that pier with the sweat off me back. I nailed it board by board. But do they call me McGregor-the-Pier-Builder?

Nooooo... "


"But ya F one sheep . . . "

 

I love this topic and heres my 2 cents. When you have an engine builder participates in an anything goes race of course they are not going to tell you what they ran or sell it to you. I can drag race and friday night grudge matches and nobody is going to tell you anything about what they have done to their engine. Engine builders do things like this for bragging rights and to push the limits. The knowledge learned by pushing the limits makes a better package for their customers. Think of any professional car racing series and every manufacturer has learned things from it to make the cars you buy at the dealer better. Maybe its tire technology or how to make a fuel injector flow better could be anything. These all out events are the things that push quad technology to the max. Go to your ford dealer and tell them you want a John Force Mustang funny car, the dyno numbers, cam specs, bore and stroke and all that jive and you will be laughed off the showroom. Dont worry you will get a better package because of all the lessons learned in competition events.

 

Kingraptor and vraptor,
I have reread all the posts on this topic and all your premises to your arguements are accurate...thank you for stating the point that i missed...Lyle, as i understand the his relationship with Curtis is a long time friend of Curtis's...the raptor that was presented at the F.S.W. is different from the one i have...the three major things that are different are this...the F.S.W. had a 10.75:1 piston, quiet core silencer, and it had Curtis's supercharger air box....My raptor has the 12.5:1 piston, the straight thur race core with turndown endcap and i dont have the supercharger airbox kit...i am running with no airbox lid with the gytr billet flange and two stage foam filter with outwears filter cover...So i do know that my bike is different....hey i will finish this later.....charm is on tv...hehehe....love that show.....be back later....
herbdon out.....

p.s.....i think i may just have to dyno my quad...to let yall know what's up with my motor's performance.......

 

My two cents to all the builders (and others reading this topic over and over)...

To put it simply, I could care less what is in an engine in terms of cam specs, compression ratio, etc. so nobody has to bore me with any trade secrets. Do you really think Nascar drivers really care about lift duration, compression ratios, etc. in the cars they race? Trinity, Sparks, Four Stroke Tech, and others can all keep their trade secrets. If you all want to see who can build the fastest bike and set world records, that is fine. However, I am not buying any of these engines.

The engine that does MATTER is the one being built for ME. Since I am paying, I want to know the power curve. When I call KingRaptor a chump and tell him I am coming to Arizona to whip his a$$, I want to know I am going to do it. I don't want to find out that I drove all that way to have his Trinity 680 whip my whatever 680 or 720. Could it happen? Damn right it could if I don't know for sure that my engine is putting out more hp than his. I am trusting that you the builder did your homework, did some R&D testing, and put a package together that can produce a certain power curve.

Engine builders, I don't want to hear that I am paying you to put an 11:1 compression piston, a cam with such and such lift and duration, etc. and that my bike will kick butt. What does this all mean to me? In the end if I get my engine back and it only produces 50 hp then what? Are you planning to tell me that you built it to the specs we agreed upon and better luck next time? No way. What I want to know is how much do I need to pay to get 50hp, 60hp, or 70hp and a guarantee that the engine I just got rebuilt produces it? When KingRaptor tells me that his quad produces 64+ hp, then I am going to decide if I am willing to buy an engine that is capable of producing more than 64+. Tell me what your price is so I can beat KingRaptor.

I live near the Chesapeake and this is a boater's world. All the guys who are into recreational racing get certified dyno runs when they pay for an engine rebuild/hop-up. I know the guy who is about to put the quickest boat in the Cheasapeake in the water in 2-3 weeks. It has two 1,400 hp helicopter engines in it. Each engine was independently certified to 1,400+ hp. This is what the boat owner from Pasadena, MD was paying for and this is what the engine builder in Texas guaranteed. Now if I wanted to have the fastest boat and I had the money, I would need a builder who could guarantee me that he could build two engines capable of beating this output. This guy guaranteed that he would beat the 1,400+ hp and had independent dyno runs done. He knew he could do it because he did it a few other times and had done some research on newer products that could help him easily achieve this figure. He was confident he could do it and put his name on the contract. If he couldn't, he had to pay for the core engines himself.

In all reality, I could care less that that one Sparks 690 beat KingRaptor by 15 lengths. What I want to know is that if I buy that same engine build from Sparks and run pump gas that I too am going to beat KingRaptor by 15 lengths. The point is that I want to know how much I am paying, how much power I am getting, and a guarantee. The builder who agrees to this gets my business.

I am sure that if I called Trinity and said I want to beat the output you had for KingRaptor's engine they would say "yes we can do it - there are a few tricks and upgrades we can do that KingRaptor CHOSE not to pay us to do." By the way, it is going to cost this much for the basic package that produces this much hp and then the added upgrades are going to cost this much and increase your power this much. If you guys are all doing all this R&D efforts, you know what you can produce so you shouldn't have any trouble building an engine, putting it on a dyno, and saying this is what we give you for your money. If not, then I am just gambling on your talents at my expense. You are asking me to "hope" that I am going to get the build that can beat KingRaptor. No Way! You should be able to repeat the power output over and over again within a small margin of difference due to your R&D in putting a package together. That is why your are the builder and I am the consumer. If I call you up and ask you to build me an engine according to the specs I give you then that is a different story. You deserve to be paid time and material regardless of the output.

I will leave the big time one-on-one "one-time" racing up to the big boys to decide who can in fact get the most power out of a Raptor engine. Give me the power curves and costs for your everyday, R&D proven builds and I will give you my business. Keep all the trade secrets for obtaining the results to yourself - I don't need them.

In the end, I could care less what the Sparks engine put out that beat KingRaptor or if it was running some special gas. All anyone really cares about is what the results for the engine they are getting will be, the dollar figure, and a guarantee that it will produce what they are told. Sparks, why not take one of these average builds that you sell and publish the dyno run especially if it is from one of your tried and true, R&D proven engines. If this particular engine was just one of your normal builds, then put it on the dyno and promise in writing that you can duplicate the feat for any Joe willing to pay for it. Each engine builder should be willing to do this if you are offering a power package. Please hurry up, I need to know whether to call you, Trinity, or Powroll to build my engine. At this point, I don't know who to trust based on all the feedback posted on this forum. Perhaps this is why the Internet is such a sad way to do business. In the end, I can only trust the one who is willing to guarantee me a build/power output in writing.

The other way of doing this is to let me send you my stock "core" and you send me an engine that you have already built and dyno'd. Make it a good one though, I really do want to kick sand on KingRaptor. I know he can take it like a man if I beat him fair and square.

/NotuRaptor

 

<< You miss the point. Sparks insists this is the same motor everyone can buy and we have yet to see another Sparks Raptor anywhere near that particular quad. If you are selling a John Force package then you ought to receive a John Force package, not a base 4.6 liter Stang with headers. >>



I can agree to that. I think it comes down to the fact he wants to keep his secrets a secret. Without a doubt he spent a ton of cash to develop an engine and wants to protect his investment. If he did use a one off engine and goofy fuel I dont think he did it to deceive anyone. In drag racing you have to be able to keep a poker face and play what you have. If rules were laid out before the event that stated you must reveal what your runnin I am sure he would have. I really dont think he meant any disrespect or deception. We all have to remember it wouldnt take much to build a super high horsepower engine that will get torn down at the end of the day, the real trick is to build one that will roost on the dunes day in and day out. I think all these builders have done that and done it quite well. If you want a drag engine I am sure they will sell one but be prepared to get out the wrenches and no warrenty.

 

Hey NotuRaptor...

I have followed many informative posts by Raptor 686 owners and builders here at atvconnection (you know who you/they are). And I made the call. Actually Harry McDermott returned my e-mail question with a phone call and invited me down to his shop to talk and see for myself what he has been doing in his shop. As a result of this forum and the participants, I brought my parts to TRINITY yesterday. Harry gave me the grand tour of his class &quot;A&quot; facility and equipment. (You can read/see it on his new web page). His knowledge and passion for his business was exactly what I was looking for. He took the time to explain and show me the different options available and the R&amp;D behind each part/modification/tweak/etc.

I decided on the ever popular 686 bore, 102mm piston, head/intake/exhaust porting, cam &amp; valves, and larger center intake valve. I tend to do longer rides and never do less than 150 dune miles at Glamis in a weekend (no sand highway cruising). If I spent more time at Olds or the Drags I would have opted for a larger piston, more valve work, and stouter cam..... which requires higher octane than pump gas...and more $$

It's all about the fun factor for me and I am stoked I bought the Raptor. I rode bikes nearly every day for 12 years. Then I was sidelined by life, family, and some major injuries. At 33 years old I needed a toy (sold my boat) ....enter RAPTOR...my first quad! And if I didn't have a motor problem I would have kept it stock. I'm not a hill shooter or drag racer. Being the fastest is a full time job and I will leave that to Raptor720 and KingRaptor.

I have a huge group of riding buddies again and it is a ton of fun! But guess what...I am going to kick there butts in 3 weeks and who doesn't love that!!!

Thanks Harry, Raptor720, and KingRaptor.

Scott